Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

"Green" policies are destroying this country

Options
13253263283303311062

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 3,328 ✭✭✭Banana Republic 1


    This may be news to you but there was hares in Ireland 9000 years ago.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Now that this is coming in, you can expect to see a lot more people installing solar panels as no planning permission will be required




  • Registered Users Posts: 2,049 ✭✭✭Mecanudo


    Not at all. Hares would certainly not be as plentiful now as they were in post glacial Ireland and they don't need numbers reduced

    Thing is theres long been some doubt about that bone found in the cave btw

    "The long-legged, tufty-eared, elusive Eurasian lynx, a solitary feline carnivore, had arrived in Britain postglacially, along with roe deer as its principal prey. The last one disappeared from the UK about 700 AD. Did the lynx make its own way to Ireland or did a dried leg of meat arrive with a Mesolithic voyager? Either way, there’s little further mention of the cat in the history of Irish mammals."

    That and they do like sheep

    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/runaway-lynx-massacres-seven-sheep-11480807



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,076 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    It may be news to you but you, but the Irish mountain hare is a legally protected species under the Irish Wildlife Act, and the E.U.Habitats directive. But then Irish greens are not pushed about E.U. directives anyway.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,601 ✭✭✭ps200306



    Thanks for the links Akrasia. Let me address a few of your points in no particular order:

     "Our children won't thank us for moaning about the cost of petrol in 2022 when they're looking at their own kids struggling to survive."

    True. However, nobody will thank us for torpedoing the economy now because of scenarios for our great great grandchildren in 2100 which turn out to be implausible. What's more, nobody will be able to force through climate mitigation policies that squeeze the pips too hard. We are seeing that across Europe at the moment. Like it or not, you can only act within what is politically possible.

    While it would be nice to have a crystal ball to know exactly what we are up against, we do not. We are going to have to take our best guess and take the most common sensical approach to both mitigation and adaptation. The advantage of adaptation policies is that they can be applied as the need arises.

    Fortunately, there is reason to believe that worst case scenarios of previous IPCC reports are now implausible. The AR6 report says this explicitly: "The likelihood of of high emission scenarios such as RCP8.5 or SSP5-8.5 is considered low in light of recent developments in the energy sector (Hausfether and Peters, 2020a, 2020b)". They project that SSP2-4.5 is more likely, while acknowledging that higher scenarios could still be reached because of uncertainty in carbon-cycle feedbacks.

    So the scenarios that were considered "most likely" in previous reports are considered unlikely in AR6. Strangely, many of the papers cited in AR6 still reference the extreme scenarios. RCP8.5 was predicated on high population increase and massive increase in coal consumption (6.2x increase per capita) which nobody now thinks is going to happen. It's also puzzling that the UN Secretary General greeted AR6 as a "code red for humanity", that the "alarm bells are deafening" and that we are "putting billions of people at immediate risk". Such alarmism from Guterres is decidedly unhelpful (though pretty typical of him), especially now that hundreds of millions of people are actually at immediate risk from high food and fuel prices.

    However, there is reason to believe that even AR6 is unduly pessimistic. The IEA World Energy Outlook that informed AR6 showed coal consumption growth at the low end of IPCC scenarios (even under current policies, let alone stated policies).


    A paper (PDF here) in Environmental Research Letters suggests that other trends also may diverge from IPCC baseline scenarios, including population and GDP growth, and energy and carbon intensity of the economy. Needless to say, these trends depend on continuing trends of decarbonisation, though not necessarily extreme ones.

    By mid-century, the world stands to lose 10% of total economic value from climate change.

     And yet an IMF 2019 working paper (PDF here) says that it will only be 7% by 2100 and that’s in the absence of any mitigation strategies whatsoever. What’s more, even an extremely low economic growth path (1% per annum) would see global GDP rise by 120% by 2100. In the (admittedly unlikely) case that growth matched the historical average for the last 60 years (4% per annum), the increase would be 2,200%. A 7% loss would barely be a rounding error. But in any case we will not lose 7% because we are not on an extreme path where we employ no mitigation strategies.

     At these levels, we're going to see 'natural disasters' hitting levels that humans have never experienced in our history

    So far there is scant evidence that “natural disasters” will do that. Tropical cyclone activity shows no trends. Forest fires show minimal trends. What we do know is that human deaths from climate-related disasters have fallen dramatically – about 90% in the past century. That is because of adaptation, early warning systems, and improved social infrastructure. Affluence is the key to resilience. By all means, employ mitigation strategies, but do not sink the economy in the process as it is the key to reducing harm from climate change. Economic damage from climate change will certainly increase as we continue to build more human habitation in harm’s way. But in relative terms, as a proportion of GDP, it is manageable especially if we employ some common sense. 

    Climate change is already reducing crop yields

    Your graphs show changes in length of growing season. And yet, for many places this is not the driver of crop yields. Consider West Africa which is considered vulnerable to climate change due to possible changes in monsoonal rainfall patterns. One doom-laden 2009 paper I read (sorry, don’t have the reference to hand) predicted crop yields to fall precipitously as early as 2020. Instead, they went up by 15%.

    For a general look at the difficulties of forecasting crop yield changes, have a look at a meta-analysis (PDF here) in which the projections for West Africa span a range from -50% yield to +90% yield. It also reminds us that “adaptation is a fundamental issue in assessing future crop yield scenarios if one wants to avoid an overestimation of climate change impacts”. Few of the projections take adaptation into account.

    Have a look at wheat yield statistics for the same period as covered by your graphs (here). Look at Mali, Niger, Chad, Cameroon and Nigeria in 1980 with crop yields in tonnes per hectare at 1.33, 1.0, 2.0, 0.79 and 2.4 respectively. In 2018 these numbers are 3.54, 2.96, 2.24, 1.33, and 0.79. How did Mali and Niger manage to nearly triple their yields, while Chad and Cameroon only went up modestly, and Nigeria went down?

    For wheat production in Nigeria the answer is a skill deficiency, low level of mechanisation, inadequate technology, and insecurity (article here). The opportunity for Africa to modernise its way to better food security is enormous, and far greater than the median projected diminution in crop yields due to climate change. For this they will need cheap, reliable energy. Subsistence farmers rarely fret about climate change – they have bigger concerns on their minds.

    Can you even imagine the increase in climate resilience that could be wrought in West Africa with just the €125 billion that the Greens want the Irish public to spend on EVs and retrofits between now and 2030? (Not that I am advocating this – Africa will have to solve it’s own structural problems, and it is doing so. However, the difference in impact between Ireland saving 0.05% of global emissions by 2030 and what this level of investment in African economies could do is stark).

    … which is leading to increased levels of suicide” 

    The cited study seems extremely tendentious and even taken on its own terms seems highly uncertain. It’s the sort of torturing of statistics that gives research a bad name. It doesn’t even seem to distinguish between agrarian (farmer and farm laborer) suicides and other sectors. How do you attribute a suicide to heat as opposed to other stressors? (Yes, I read the paper and looked at the error bars and said "meh"). And even if all the suicides they included were attributable to climate change it would still only be 10% of them.

    However, much more curious is that practically everything in your cited paper is contradicted by a more recent analysis of the same Indian National Crime Records Database by Sthanu Nair, a professor of economics at the Indian Institute of Management (link here). It shows agrarian suicides going down, not up, as farm productivity increases. It also compares the suicide mortality rate across sectors and shows that the agrarian rate is going in the opposite direction to non-agrarian, having declined almost continuously since 2003.

     



  • Advertisement
  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Some love to harp on about China's coal usage on this thread so I thought I'd add a bit of counter balance. The report below highlights 21.1gw of offshore wind was installed in 2021 and China accounted for 17gw of that.

    Meanwhile we have 40mw I think and our plans are for 5-6gw over the next 7-8 years. Even our long term plans for the west coast only bring the total to about 30gw.

    Granted, China and scale are major caveats but the underlying numbers from them are impressive nonetheless




  • Registered Users Posts: 15,076 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    Just to add a bit of counter balance to your counter balance.

    In 2020 China brought 38.4 gigawatts of new coal fired power into operation. Over double the 17 gigawatts from offshore wind. That 38.4 gigawatts from coal was also three times greater than was brought on line anywhere else. In 2020 Chinese provinces granted construction approval for 47 gigawatts of coal power projects.




  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    There's no denying that, and its caused by a mis-match in priorities between the central govt and the regional govt's.

    That being said, its also worth noting the solar installations in 2021 by them where they installed 53gw of new solar and they are planning for between 70-90GW a year for the next 3 years.


    Very rapidly, coal is going to become uneconomical in China, same as everywhere else, when stacked up against the LCOE of renewables.

    So yeah, they are doing stupid sh1te with coal, but they are vastly outpacing everyone else when it come to renewables and I mean VASTLY.



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,076 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    If there is one thing China is not it is economically stupid. They are using coal as an energy source because it is cheap and they have shown they have no intentions of changing anytime soon with their plans to open more such plants. Similar to Japan on coal, China is very much "preserving all its options for power generation".

    I do not see where you are getting that this increase in planned coal burning plants is somehow due to regional authorities going against central government policy. Under China`s "unitary state system" local laws and regulations must not contravene national laws and State Council-issued regulations.

    In case you or anybody else is confused as to just how many coal burning plants are in China at present with more being planned.

    There was much being made here some time back on China`s per capita carbon footprint when compared to Ireland and that we should not be criticising due to our per capita footprint being higher.

    2017 China`s per capita carbon footprint was 7.7. 2020 that had risen to 8.2. For Ireland in 2017 it was 8.2. 2020 that had dropped to 6.68. Source: worldpopulationreview.com



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    This will explain it. Watch from 8:00 onwards for the details on it


    In the past they passed the laws that let companies and regional govts anticipate demand and build power stations as they saw fit. They extended this further in 2014 by giving complete autonomy to the regional govts in this area so those regional govts decide themselves what type of energy generation they are going to build.

    They pulled back on it a few years later but then let a load go ahead to stimulate the economy.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 22,408 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    Thanks for your considered reply

    Firstly, I don't think anyone supports tanking the irish economy, it's about making the correct choices. The Irish national grid needs significant investment regardless of what path we choose, nuclear, gas, wind, solar, whatever we will be doing, it will require a massive overhaul in our grid infrastructure and I think we need to do this with the long term goal of being carbon neutral.

    I know we will need to use gas while we transition but we need to increase the investment and improve our regulatory environment and remove the road blocks to accessing the grid. These investments are for the long term, and I believe we should borrow to fund these rather than try to fund them through higher tax or energy costs.


    Regarding natural disasters, We certainly have seen increasingly extreme weather. Not all the weather is 'record breaking' but the dice are loaded to make rare weather events more common. Just turn on the news today, French outdoor events cancelled, 43c in Spain, England issuing heatwave alerts... These used to be exceptional, now they're happening earlier and more often as every year passes.

    For Ireland, the Fodder crisis in 2018 is twice as likely to re-occur due to climate change as the incidence of blocking weather has increased due to climate change (long periods of either wetter than usual, or drier than usual weather)


    There are also plenty of events that are unprecedented in their intensity, Heatwaves, Droughts and Floods are all becoming more severe, and storms are becoming more damaging, due to the increased rainfall caused by climate change as well as increasing wind speeds in the most powerful storms (the models suggest fewer but more powerful storms)

    https://www.worldweatherattribution.org/

    The recent heatwave in India and Pakistan, for example, was 30 times more likely due to the climate change we have already caused and this is only 1/3rd of the heating we're likely to add over the coming decades.

    The IPCC are a conservative organisation, but the climate is heating faster than they predicted, the sea levels are rising faster, and they have some major blind spots when it comes to how we can keep the CO2 concentrations low enough to stay within 2-3c of warming. CCS technology is extremely expensive and unproven, and the fossil fuel companies have absolutely no intention of leaving their reserves in the ground. There is absolutely zero room for complacency. We need to take faster and stronger action and exceed our targets for emissions reductions.

    There is no contingency for unforseen events. How much emissions have this stupid war in Ukraine caused?

    RCP 8.5 is the plausible worst case scenario, we need to take concerted action to ensure we don't sleepwalk into it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,076 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    What you believe that explains I have no idea.

    Your own link shows you are incorrect on regional authorities being allowed to make their own decisions on coal burning plants. China allowed that in 2014, but reversed that in 2016, and despite all their promises on reducing their use of coal, have recently reversed that decision.

    Considering we are talking about China, this idea that their central government has no control over what local authorities decide to do is even less plausible than the Irish government being unable to do anything if Kerry County Council decided to keep Moneypoint open indefinitely. It`s nothing other than a very feeble excuse as to why they have broken their commitments where they are using more coal now, not less, that the gullible will swallow.

    China are using coal now in even greater volume for no other reason than even your own link states. It`s cheap and its for their economic benefit. Same as Japan is doing. Whereas here the Irish Green Party, where we have a per capita smaller carbon footprint than China are determined to ruin ours, based on some madcap idea that our 3% of China`s population is going to negate the damage China is doing. Or even more madcap, that somehow us doing that will embarrass China into changing their policies.

    At least with China, they have recognised that nuclear is the future. Here we are not supposed to even discuss it according to greens.

    Btw. whenever that link was made it is out of date. The percentage for China`s electrical generation by coal is not 50%. It`s 63%.




  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Great work being done by these folks in Wexford supported by Pippa Hackett with govt funding

    RTE news : Community comes together to restore stream biodiversity





  • Registered Users Posts: 3,328 ✭✭✭Banana Republic 1


    I listen the McWilliams myself so I heard this. Interested to know, actually I'm not, did you twist our ankle whilst spinning the above statement. Id Wagner you didn't listen to the podcast at all, I know the two from the like brigade didn't.

    Anyway once again you shoot your pants over the notion that green policies are destroying this country cause if you listened to the podcast for more than two minutes you'd realise that point being made was about the parish pump, head in sand nature of Irish politics, everything is done to get votes next time around and there is no thought put into the long term if there was the electricity infrastructure in the country would have been upgraded incrementally over the past 50 years but just like what passes for a water infrastructure in Ireland wires and pylons aren't sexy, unless your an engineer, and no parish pump TD wants a photo op turning the sod on a pylon project.

    The reason electricity prices are 30% higher in Ireland, despite all the wind turbine, the word "all" is a misnomer btw, compared to France who have nuclear is because the grid here is in a diabolical state not because turf power plants where closed or any of that nonsense peddled by the pro coal, turf and gas crowed. IF you listened to the conversation the expert said the nobody is going to build new fossil fuel energy generation plants because they don't want to be left high and dry with a stranded asset.

    I don't know why the Green Party are against nuclear really but listening to that podcast only strenghtened my opinon that building any form of nuclear reactor in Ireland will not happen anytime soon if ever. What stuffed shirt will want to turn the sod on a reactor when people are objecting to solar farm cause the might blind or horses. Just think about the curentand past building and infrastructure projects in Ireland, the €4 billion euro children's hospital, the €5 billion broadband plan, the Dail printer, Irish Water, Thornton prison, the E voting machines, the Luas that didn't join up the list is endless you really think a nuclear reactor is even on the radar.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,049 ✭✭✭Mecanudo


    What do you expect DaCor? - there's going to serious criticism of those insisting turning off the lights here unless they are powered by renewables only. Whilst China remains single handedly the biggest emitter of ghgs globally. This is certainly not the green cheerleading thread. Stange that no one ever seems to post anything positive in that thread, but every 'green' headline no matter how tenous seems to get a link here. How's that work exactly?

    Yes China is also using renewables. However they're also continuing to use fossil fuels and increasing the rate they are doing so in order to achieve dominance in global manufacturing and preproduction, with even higher levels of ghg emissions. All the while they are been held up by some as a great bunch of lads for doing what their doing. The irony of that situation is the only "impressive" thing tbf



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,818 ✭✭✭SeanW


    I'm not sure that you watched the entire video in full because it explains a lot more than you might have wanted. Yes, China is investing heavily in renewables alongside their historical and current coal investments, but there are some caveats:

    1) The question of what China does when the sun goes down or the wind stops blowing is made clear by the fact that China is also going all-in on river dams. So the weather based renewables they are using can be thought of as compliments to all those dams, allowing them to store more water and keep the gates closed more. It should be noted that China has in parts geography that is similar to Norway, with lots of mountains and mountain rivers. Spoiler: Ireland does not.

    Even if we had Chinese/Norwegian style geography - which we don't - it is almost certain that damming rivers on such a large scale would attract considerable environmental questions. Some of which would be legitimate, but much of it would be spurious. Australia for example, suffers from large scale flooding every year affecting hundreds of thousands of people and kill people routinely, but they cannot deal with the problem because proposals to build or expand dams always get blocked by the Greta Thunberg brigade. Likewise, the so-called water crisis in California is caused largely by the fact that California has not built any dams or reservoirs for decades. Again, this is caused by green activists who are looking to push their agenda instead.

    The Chinese Communist Party does not have this problem. If they want to build a dam - and dams are necessary to back up weather based renewables - anyone who objects gets dragged off to a black jail and their social credit score takes a hammering.

    2) The video also makes it clear that renewables alone will not solve China's problems - even though they are industrialising the landscape on a level unprecedented in human history. So in addition to going all in with dams, they are also going all in with nuclear energy.

    One other thing I noted was that this thread started before the 24th of February 2022. This date is significant because it made clear how reckless and irresponsible European energy policy has been. The idea that an advanced, prosperous civilisation can exist solely on weather based renewables is complete and specious nonsense, and up until now we've pretending we're great by not having / phasing out nuclear power, blocking domestic energy exploration, while simultaneously outsourcing our actual energy needs to Putin's Russia.

    Climate change it not Europe's most immediate threat. Russia (starting with its genocidal destruction of Ukraine) is, and that once Putin destroys Ukraine, his army of marauding Nazi scumbags WILL move into other European countries, most likely starting with Moldova, and the only open question is who is next? The evidence I've seen clearly indicates that Russia wants control of much of Europe.

    Anyone who objected the construction of LNG import terminals, nuclear power plants and the exploration for gas, oil and Uranium in Europe helped to create the monster that is Putin's Russia. And anyone who continues to do despite clear evidence that Russia, not climate change, is the biggest threat to Europe right now, had the blood (so far) of Ukrainian children on their hands.



  • Registered Users Posts: 22,408 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    Who on this thread said Nuclear was not a valuable part of the energy mix? Or that 'Weather based renewables' should be the sole energy supply

    Ireland currently imports Nuclear power through our east west interconnector and will be importing more nuclear power when the Celtic interconnector finally goes live

    We also have Pumped Hydro storage in Turlough hill as well as biomass and will be implementing energy storage both at domestic scale, and industrial and grid scale

    There are a lot of straw man arguments being thrown around. The solution to climate change is for each region to use the renewable and carbon neutral energy sources that are best suited to their geography and available resources, as well as improving energy efficiency, reducing waste and changing our economic model to be more sustainable

    Climate change is not Europes most 'immediate' threat, nobody says it is. It's a long term threat with long term consequences which requires immediate action to mitigate those long term costs.

    If we fail to act on climate change, which is mitigation as well as adaptation, we will come to a point where the consequences of climate change become acute emergencies on par or greater than the current Ukranian crises.

    Climate change is going to be a force multiplier in future conflicts as water and food become resources that nation states will be willing to go to war over again.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    LEGALLY BINDING LIMITS for greenhouse gas emissions from sectors such as agriculture and electricity are expected to be agreed by government next month. 

    Ireland has a number of climate targets in place all centred around the requirement to slash greenhouse gas emissions by 51% by 2030 and reach net zero emissions by 2050. 




  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Another good one coming out of Brussels

    RTE news : EU seeks to halve use of pesticides with landmark law





  • Registered Users Posts: 15,076 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    There really appears to be no end to Irish greens hypocrisy. They can spare us their platitudes on Ukraine for starters. Their two MEPs Cuffe and O`Sullivan abstained on the E.U. resolution condemning Russian aggression towards Ukraine. All other green party MEPs voted in favour.

    On Nuclear Irish green are every bit as hypocritical. Happy to accept it as "a valuable part of the energy mix" as long as somebody else is providing it, while at the same time through the E.U. parliament attempting to cut it`s access to funding. The east-west connector, similar to the Moffat lines being ignored by Irish greens, are not energy secure, and the French interconnector, with the future energy demands in Europe is unlikely in times of need to have much to supply whenever it does become operational. On the cutting off of your nose to spite your face principle, even less chance if greens do get their way on cutting off funding for nuclear.

    Unless someone has come up with the solution to achieving perpetual motion then storage such as Turlough Hill is net energy loss game. Fine when you have the surplus energy to pump water back up that hill, but if you were depending on wind energy for that for many of the days last winter and this spring when wind was providing 6% and less of our energy requirements, on those days all you would have is an empty lake.

    In today`s money Turlough Hill would cost 500 million, (same as a LNG terminal in money and longer in time to construct) and best days Turlough Hill ever had was 6 hours production. Shannonbridge just one of the peat burning plants that we have been told by greens was so insignificant as be irrelevant, alone could produce 50% of the electricity that Turlough Hill can produce but could do so for 24 hours meaning it could add twice amount to the grid that Turlough Hill can.

    Biomass is just another of those fairytale promises from greens where all our problems could be solved and fortunes made by farmers growing biomass. Neither proved correct. Biomass provides roughly just 2% of our electricity and even at that 15% of the material is imported.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 3,044 ✭✭✭patnor1011


    Couple good points comparing "renewables" and nuclear and why nuclear is far better solution than what we are being push towards now.




  • Registered Users Posts: 15,076 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    Some very interesting and informative statistics. I imagine they will be of particular interest to "you can be an environmentalist without being a green party supporter" poster, but then again perhaps not. Searching out Green Party puff pieces and posting them here seems to be his sole interest of late.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,328 ✭✭✭Banana Republic 1


    I actually saw that clip on YouTube last night was skeptical the he believed all he himself was saying.



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,076 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    If he does then he would not be unique. Greens have been doing the same to sell their ideology.



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,076 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    He came across to me at least as somebody who had bought into the whole agenda, but as time went on, as an environmentalist, began to question it. His stats to back up what he was saying on nuclear were particularly interesting in relation to solar for California which is not short on sunshine.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Like I said, he likes to mix truths, with half-truths and pure lies. Gullible people seem to fall for his particular brand quite easily and he sells a lot of books as a result



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,076 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    .....and as I said if that is the case then it is not unique to him. Quite a lot of the same going on from greens attempting to sell their ideology.

    But aside from that, from the link posted what he had to say on nuclear, and particularly in relation to solar in California, as well as in relation to France and Germany where it showed the foolishness of Germany compared to France on nuclear, was well backed up. It`s never a good look when the aim is attempting to negate the message by shooting the messenger.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,361 ✭✭✭Jinglejangle69


    So Eamon was on again earlier ruling out LNG for the winter.


    Meanwhile countries are stocking coal to keep the lights turned on for winter.


    At least we’re the good boys this winter.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 15,076 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    Meanwhile Eamon & Co. are going to somehow determine what constitutes a community of less than 500 people where it will be legal to sell or gift turf, but illegal to do so in a community of 501.

    Other than someone being on strong medication, (or needing to be put on strong medication), there is no rhyme or reason to that.



Advertisement