"Green" policies are destroying this country

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119951514#Comment_119951514

France subsidises domestic electricity prices

And half of their Nuclear plants are offline for the past few months. If they didn't have interconnectors they'd be screwed

antoinolachtnai

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119951523#Comment_119951523

These designs are not suitable for a small isolated grid like Ireland’s. The other problems are also very real.

it is a pure fantasy on your part. It is not remotely feasible this decade or next.

JRant

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119951869#Comment_119951869

Fair play to the French government in subsidizing domestic energy prices. Something our lot could do with taking a look at.

I don't think people realize the scale of upgrades required to the grid if we want to get to 100% renewables, not that it's even technically feasible right now. Our Grid was developed for large generation stations in singular locations. Having turbine and solar farms scattered around the country is causing issues and will cost an extraordinary amount to upgrade the grid. Those sums of money have to be paid back someway and that's through increased electrical process and standing charges.

The government, Eirgrid, and ESB, should be looking to provide the best solution for the people in terms of both cost and reliability. That's being forgotten in the insane drive to net zero.

antoinolachtnai

Did you learn to make these ridiculous analogies and cherry pick facts to suit your political notions in the pub at college?

Finland is not an isolated grid. It is part of a much bigger electricity system. The population served by this grid is far larger than the 5.5 million people in Finland, four times larger in fact.

Finnish demand is also quite a bit higher than island of Ireland demand. Finnish demand is around double that of the Island of Ireland (even though population is comparable).

i am very impressed that you managed to get all these engineering degrees. Thanks for the link to Wikipedia!

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119951988#Comment_119951988

Neither is getting rid of gas by 2050 without bankrupting the state though……..

antoinolachtnai

Now you went to talk about wind and interconnection? I thought you wanted to talk about the AP1000 being highly suitable for the Irish grid?

DC interconnection is nothing like being part of a continental-scale synchronized grid. You know this from your vast engineering experience and are trying to grind some political axe, or else your expertise is a lot more limited than you think it is

You are hurling from the ditch. You criticise whilst having no realistic alternative to offer. I suppose that is the whole point of the thread.

charlie14

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119951869#Comment_119951869

Have consumers not been subsidising renewables since day one of the marginal pricing policy with the state also giving such companies guaranteed strike prices ? The latest strike price here for wind being the same as that for U.K. nuclear

The marginal pricing policy has not reduced electricity bills by a red cent and from all indications never will. The E.U. while decoupling gas still leaves renewables to be priced at the price of whichever one of oil or coal is the most expensive in the generation mix.

At least the French subsidies has their consumers paying half the rate of here. Our subsidies are only making renewable companies richer.

Danzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119927567#Comment_119927567

It's going to be a rough few years for towns where Tourism industry is vital.

The Govt, the activists don't give a shi7.

There is a stark class divide between those who self describe as progressive and most of the population.

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119952343#Comment_119952343

the government needs to become heavily involved in the generation of our power, in particular owning more of our energy generation network, methods such as the use of sovereign wealth funds could then be used to redistribute the wealth created from such, probably wont happen though....

antoinolachtnai

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119952226#Comment_119952226

There is no 1100 MW unit at Moneypoint. There are three 300 MW units.

Can you produce an example of a small synchronous grid with an AP1000 on it, or even some sort of credible feasibility study, or not?

Have you any more bile to spill as you grind your axe (before I start referring to the International Atomic Energy Agency’s guidance on reactor sizing which you apparently are not aware of)?

charlie14

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119952176#Comment_119952176

France have been consistently the top exporter of electricity on this continental-scale synchronized grid but that No1 spot went to Sweden this year. Do you believe it is just sheer coincidence that both those countries generate a large percentage of their electricity using nuclear and are both planning on increasing their nuclear generation ability ?

I don`t see where the poster is, as you put it "hurling from the ditch". He has shown you what this offshore plan would cost, as well as the cost of the alternative using nuclear reactors and where such reactors are currently in operation. Something as far as I recall, you claimed such reactors didn`t even exist.

antoinolachtnai

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119952397#Comment_119952397

The operation of an AP1000 reactor or the Korean models is not feasible on the IoI grid. The plants are too big. The grid is too small.

charlie14

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119952379#Comment_119952379

If the government is going to become heavily involved in generation then that is going to require large borrowings. If that was the case then those borrowings would have to be based on financial viability. €150 + Billion for 6.3 Gigawatts I cannot see as being in any way shape make or form financially viable.

That said I would have no great problem with the state borrowing to finance generation as long as they are open and honest as to how much and for what purpose. At least the state would then own the assets rather than private investors where the state is guaranteeing them strike price to ensure they turn a profit..

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119952423#Comment_119952423

yup, this is exactly what would be required to happen, hence why it probably wont, bonds yields are currently just under 2.5%, noting yields went negative during covid, so chances of this all happening is zero!

according to economist eric Lonergan, its now possible to have an off shore farm up and running within a couple of years, and the debts required to be paid back within a few years of operations, such is the current price of energy, again, our government wont listen to such advice, so....

as you said, we d end up with new critical state assets, of which methods such as swf's could be used to redistribute the wealth created, again, probably wont happen!

charlie14

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119952409#Comment_119952409

First the reactors didn`t exist and now the AP1000 is too big.

This offshore plan is for 30 Gigawatts that would supply 6.3Gigawatts for domestic consumption. The capacity of an AP1000 reactor is 1.1 Gigawatts.

PommieBast

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119952343#Comment_119952343

Don't know the whole history but my understanding it was a fudge to get around how front-loaded wind power is with construction costs vs. its marginal MWh unit cost. Maybe it started out as an idea to link wind MWh price to the carbon credit cost of the equivalent power from fossil fuels but then politics got involved.

antoinolachtnai

What plant are you referring to? The Moneypoint plants are each less than a third of the size of what you are dreaming about.

I don’t know why you are regaling me with your (uninteresting) views on wind power or whatever it is with me. It is an irrelevant tangent to the question of whether there is a viable option available to Ireland today to build a reasonably priced nuclear power plant (and there isn’t).

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119952409#Comment_119952409

What’s your alternative to fossil fuel generation when the wind output is low during winter for a couple of weeks or so?

antoinolachtnai

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119952503#Comment_119952503

I am heartened that after many back and forths you are now happy to yield to the beneficent wisdom of the IAEA on the matter of nuclear plant sizing.

That is a very vague question. What decade are you talking about for eliminating fossil fuels from the Irish fuel mix?

Capt'n Midnight

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119952343#Comment_119952343

Hinkley-C would get exactly zero on those Irish contracts as they have a 10 year limit that doesn't take delays into account.

Also you are comparing 2012 prices for a 35 year index linked contract (won't fall to market rate till at least 2062) with Irish prices for 10 years. Even then the Irish prices are twice those in the UK so not a guide for future larger contracts.

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119952531#Comment_119952531

I haven’t mentioned nuclear at all? You have me confused with another poster.

fossil fuels are to be gone by 2050 and down to 20% usage by 2030- 8 years from now.

I’ll ask again what’s your alternative?

charlie14

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119952569#Comment_119952569

What I was comparing to was the price the French are paying for their electricity from subsidising nuclear and ours which is twice the price while subsidising renewables under the marginal pricing policy that has not resulted in electricity having become a red cent cheaper. Even with the decoupling from gas renewables are still going to be priced at the rate of either coal or oil depending on which is the most expensive on any given day, with no indication whatsoever this is going to change. Basically we are subsidising renewable energy to provide more renewable energy to garner even more subsidies.

Up until now as far as the consumer is concerned we might as well have been using gas rather than renewables as we were paying the gas price for them anyway Now we might as well be using the most expensive, be it coal or oil, as we will be paying for renewables at that rate.

Yeah, we really have such a great history in Ireland of construction costs being lower that than the U.K. average and you have only to look at the latest RESS strike prices here that rose by 33% in 22 months to see that is currently working out !

charlie14

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119952479#Comment_119952479

Whatever it was meant to do so far all it has achieved is consumers paying the most expensive price in the mix for renewables and even with gas decoupled that is going to continue. It is of absolutely no use to the consumer price wise. All it is doing, with E.U encouragement is attempting to incentivise renewable companies to add more renewables from which the will get ever larger profits ad infinitum.

charlie14

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119952381#Comment_119952381

Moneypoint`s output was 0.915 Gigawatts. an APR 1000 reactors nameplate capacity is 1.1 Gigawatts. @ 95% rolling capacity the output would be 1.04 Gigawatts. Looking for any significant difference in output is like a bald man looking for a comb.

antoinolachtnai

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119952740#Comment_119952740

Moneypoint is a station comprised of three separate units. One can trip whilst the other two continue to function. when your AP1000 tripped in the middle of the night, then it’d be curtains. The whole grid would be brought to the point of collapse. So much for energy security. But that’s what you get when you ignore the advice of the IAEA.

PommieBast

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119952684#Comment_119952684

Increased use of renewables was the intention of the system from the word go. Consumers were inevitably going to get some sort of amortisation of construction cost added onto the marginal MWh cost, but in the case of wind the overall MWh cost would basically be almost entirely the former.

Suppose one way of putting it is consumers were going to get screwed for the high cost either way, but then they came up with this hairball system ..

JRant

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119952684#Comment_119952684

That's exactly why theirs been so many John and Mary outfits "building" wind farms around the country. It's basically a license to print money and everyone wants on the gravy train.

antoinolachtnai

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119952621#Comment_119952621

alternative to what though? A fantasy plan to build an impossible nuclear plant?

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119952684#Comment_119952684

All I can recall in my lifetime is electricity prices rising. That's why I can't get my head around the idea of heavy electricity use as required for EVs and household heating systems.

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119952880#Comment_119952880

Alternative to fossil fuels……