"Green" policies are destroying this country

Podge_irl

People are going to have to accept that many of these reduction targets are set at supranational level (mostly EU) and not investing to achieve them isn't go to save any money with the fines that would come down the road.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120025313#Comment_120025313

Well it's not quite being pissed away - many Green Tech companies are making a nice few bob out of it. Good area to be in at the moment, guaranteed state income.

charlie14

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120025266#Comment_120025266

you did not appear to know that the green plan for 2030 was 1 million EV`s and the sale of all ICE vehicles banned from that date. Neither did you appear to understand that the only road users paying a tax related to such usage is ICE motorists who through fuel taxes contribute €2.8 Billion on top of the €1.7 Billion they contribute in vehicle tax and vehicle registration tax.

I did point out to you a number of times that ICE motorists were the only people paying a tax directly related to their usage, but you ignored that, so using CSO figures for 2021 I showed what that figure was. After going to the trouble of doing so I do not know why you are bitching at me, or why it is any of your concern that I look on EV`s under yet another uncosted green "plan" as having lost their competitive advantage on running costs. Especially where even just a few days ago the ESB increased their charging costs by 50%.

So rather than this bitching at me, if you are a cyclist or EV owner would your time not be better spent asking greens how they intend to fill that looming exchequer gap of €4.5 Billion. By following their mantra of the user pays, or do they believe that EV owners and cyclists should continue getting a free ride on the back of the general taxpayer rather than at present on the back of ICE users.

I got a good laugh out of this one. SIMI are saying we can reduce emissions and car dependency by selling 60% more cars every year going from 100,000 to 160,000

Gas stuff altogether

Its like the gun nuts in the US saying there would be less gun deaths if everyone had a gun

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2022/1222/1343290-electric-vehicles/

Larbre34

^They're half right. Renewing the fleet will drastically cut emissions.

As for cutting car dependency, the people will make a behavioural decision on that in due course - provided the alternatives of excellent public transport and fully supported off-site work and study are there.

How did you think, exactly, that they were going to get near 1,000,000 EVs without a big increase in new registrations in the meantime? Do keep up.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120026021#Comment_120026021

Thankfully the goal has moved away from a 1-to-1 swap from ICE to EV and instead towards a 50% share of journeys by sustainable means

A much more logical approach

charlie14

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120025451#Comment_120025451

With all the trees Germany is cutting down, plus those they are purchasing from their neighbours to stay warm, you would have to wonder at the mentality of those eejits cutting the top of one that was already cut unless they too wanted that bit to stay warm.

But then maybe it was because they believed that German trees are magic. I could see their thinking there alright as In Germany, much like wood pellets, after getting a wave of the E.U. and German magic wand they become carbon neutral. You can even burn them without a little note giving instructions.

PommieBast

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120024497#Comment_120024497

Lets just hope none of this legislation gets into the constitution like divorce and abortion did.

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120026390#Comment_120026390

You're not wrong. Absolute stupidity there. All social matters that should be primary legislation, not Constitutional.

And there's yer wan, Aoibheann Ní HoolaHoop the other week chairing the Citizen's Assembly on bio-diversity, coming out and saying there ought be a Constitutional referendum for that too! I hope she gets ones, cos she'll get some land when she hears the result.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120026390#Comment_120026390

There are already moves in this regard, see below from just a few weeks back

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2022/1127/1338574-citizens-assembly/

The Citizens' Assembly on Biodiversity Loss has voted overwhelmingly to recommend that there should be a constitutional referendum to amend the Constitution with a view to protecting biodiversity.

The assembly concluded that the State has comprehensively failed to adequately fund, implement and enforce existing national legislation, national policies, EU biodiversity-related laws and directives related to biodiversity. It said this must change.

Danno

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120025389#Comment_120025389

It's time we started putting in MEPs that can veto these measures. The EU is overstepping it's remit in far too many ways now. It was set up as a trading block, not a federation. We have to put in MEPs who will align with many in Eastern Europe to curb the crazy greens/green leaning politik in Germany who appear to be the ones driving the agenda across the block - similarly like we have the greens here who are too influential.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120025798#Comment_120025798

ICE motorists who through fuel taxes contribute €2.8 Billion on top of the €1.7 Billion they contribute in vehicle tax and vehicle registration tax.

Sorry @charlie14 - your figures are a wee bit conservative there. The Irish Motorist contributes €6.2bln annually to the government's coffers...

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/motor-vehicles-generate-6-2bn-in-taxes-for-state-says-report-1.4239993

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120026043#Comment_120026043

Whose goal?

Your goal. And the goal of a bunch of pinheads in the Greens.

Would you care to tell me how the two separate objectives of your 50% above and the plan goal of just a 20% reduction in private car use are going to be reconciled?

They answer is they cannot, because this is just a big string-along for the Greens. Charlie McConalogue's interview on Radio 1 as much as confirmed that.

And yet there's Eamon Ryan still going around pissing down people's backs and telling them its raining!

I said earlier, the people, society, will make a decision on private car use, individually and collectively, if it meets their needs.

People will adopt something if it offers *EASIER* and/or *CHEAPER*, but definitely not neither.

I promise you that anything Eamon Ryan is spouting, that does not offer these, to consumers, farmers and businesses, is an absolute waste of his breath.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120026461#Comment_120026461

People will adopt something if it offers *EASIER* and/or *CHEAPER*, but definitely not neither.

Yup, thats the plan and it will be achieved through demand management strategies, taxation/grants as applicable, increased investment and infrastructure for sustainable modes, reallocation of road space to those modes, reduced street parking, increased parking costs, increased permeability and accessability and so on

Loads still to come, watch this space

charlie14

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120026453#Comment_120026453

Cheers @Danno. No problem.

I had a feeling I might have been a bit light on the total for fuel taxes paid by ICE motorists, which is the only user related tax being paid by any road user.

It will be interesting to see the green plan to fill that large hole in exchequer finances, but from what we have seen of greens financial plans for them they are a world removed. I hope it doesn`t become just more of their hypocrisy and they intend to do it by raising general taxation, rather than paying their share by way of usage.

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120026502#Comment_120026502

I'm afraid that despite your delusion, a significant minority are going to view those particulars positively.

Like Bus Connects, when it starts impacting people negatively, expect the backlash.

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120025831#Comment_120025831

Haven’t been on this thread In a couple of days but I see we are comparing car ownership to gun ownership now…………

wow.

charlie14

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120026430#Comment_120026430

Seeing as we could not word a referendum on water it doesn`t say much for this Citizens Assembly believing somehow one could be worded for what they propose.

I don`t really see what the point of this Assembly is in the first place. I thought we were living in a democracy where one person was elected to represent our views from a minimum of 20,000 of our population to a maximum of 30,000. Now we have 100 randomers selected by a polling company putting their spoke in as if the really represented anyone other than their own personal views.

What next, a polling company filling Dail Eireann with with randomers ?

It is so ridiculous that this assembly has managed to make Seanad elections look democratic.

tom1ie

So what’s the probability that we get 1GW (nameplate capacity) of west coast offshore built before 2030? Can we open a poll? Mods?

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120027898#Comment_120027898

Taxpayer, bill payer.

GreeBo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120020850#Comment_120020850

I didn't say demand midday in summer was "the highest" I said it was "quiet high".

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120027898#Comment_120027898

borrowed, bonds yields are currently just shy of 3%, with the current price of energy, those debts could be paid back within a few years of operations, and at the end of it, we d have new state assets, whereby we could use its ability to try share the wealth created from the operations, i.e. win win

Pa ElGrande

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120028516#Comment_120028516

3% ?? - That's not how it works. State agencies issue contracts, with performance clauses, this sets up the cash flow for the project when operational. A developer will bid on the contract and willl put in place a structured finance package to get the infrastructure built, once the cash flow is in place the project is sold on to an investment fund (e.g. pension funds) and they won't be settling for 3% yield . . .

The more wind and solar gets put on the grid the more expensive the electricity becomes to the end consumer. The developers are not going to build these without a guaranteed cash flow, they need to be able to offload it to another fund to finance the next project. Consider that the capcity factor for offshore wind is ~35%, and the grid can only use electricity on demand, it means the infrastructure cost and maintenance has to be funded from that and carbon credits they can sell. The fact they cannot deliver 65% of the time means the consumer picks of the the cost. There is no free lunch with those things.

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120028629#Comment_120028629

...so why arent such projects funded by so.......

charlie14

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120028516#Comment_120028516

I don`t see what offshore floating turbines with 1 GW of nameplate capacity would achieve. When wind is not blowing then they would be providing little or nothing. We have seen for extended periods that being as low as 6% from an installed capacity of 6.5 GW. Recently around 10% for an extended period.

If we are going to bank on wind to provide 100% of our needs, then we would be looking at needing 10 -16 times the present nameplate capacity, 65 GW - 100 GW, and as @correct horse battery staple has show from U.S. data that would cost €325 - €500 Bn.for turbines with a lifetime of 27 years if we were lucky. For anyone who thinks that is a wildly exaggerated figure, Hornsea One completed in 2019 cost £4.2 Bn. (€4.8 Bn) for a nameplate capacity of 1.2 GW.

Building a 1 GW nameplate capacity offshore floating wind farm is not going to provide cheap energy, nor is it going to be a state asset. It would just be a very expensive floating white elephant.

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120028701#Comment_120028701

...once again, the main reasons for our current inflationary pressures is our over reliance on international energy markets, if we become more self reliant, we may become less exposed to such future inflationary pressures, excess energy can be sold into European markets, other assets would also need to be created, such as on shore processing and storage, along side new learned knowledge of running such a system, i.e. win win win...

Marcos

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120027549#Comment_120027549

You have to remember that the Citizens Assembly was set up in order to distance politicians from politically difficult policies where they could point and say it's not us, it was the Citizens Assembly that did it. Also they are heavily "curated" read, guided to vote in a certain way. They can only deliberate on issues presented to them by the government. The establishment would not allow the citizens to decide on what issues they want to deliberate on. So of course there will be no referendum on water, or anything else that the establishment doesn't want deliberated or voted on.

charlie14

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120028744#Comment_120028744

Totally agree. Far as I recall it was established by the FG/Lab government in 2011 as nothing more than a "look over there" distraction.

It really does show the very pour level of journalism in this country when you see the ramblings of 100 randomers being reported as if their opinions represented anyone.

If you went to your local free sheet paper looking for them to print the results of your survey of 100 people calling for legislative change you would be told to go away and get your head examined.

charlie14

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120028727#Comment_120028727

The problem with wind energy as we have seen for extended periods is that when it is not blowing it has not been just a local affair. It has been the same Europe wide. There would be nothing to import so we would need 10 -16 times our present nameplate capacity just to fulfill our own needs, and that would require an investment of €325 -€500 Bn.

Even if we could export all the excess on days we did not need it, where it would be extremely highly unlikely if anybody else needed it either, to repay just 3% interest on an asset that has a lifespan of 27 years we would need to export €10.5 - €15 Bn. of wind energy annually at a price per unit based on a strike price for €325 - €500 Bn.

All that would achieve is a doubling of our national debt, and after 27 years adding the same again, leaving us with not just one 1 GW offshore floating white elephant but a large herd of them. This idea being promoted by greens that we would become the suppliers of wind energy to the rest of Europe who would be waiting open armed is nothing other than utter nonsense.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120028901#Comment_120028901

I very much doubt it will happen. Certainly not by 2030. Private enterprise won’t want anything to do with it and government will balk at the cost. Plus the logistical challenges remain unaddressed in the plans as far as I can see - that there are no installation barges available before 2026 and those that are will be getting booked up by larger countries, and my understanding from the ‘hot mess’ podcast is that we need work done to our ports before we can start moving around the massive turbines.

GreeBo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120029360#Comment_120029360

Clearly if the required barges are being used by larger countries (though you neglect to explain why larger countries would have any sort of priority?) then there is a demand and other countries are also heavily investing in off shore wind?

It can't be some crazy Eamonn Ryan thing and also something that the rest of the world is doing, which is it?