"Green" policies are destroying this country

Pa ElGrande

In Texas, yet again during severe cold, unreliable generation collapsed as demand for electricity skyrocketed. source

We saw much the same pattern recently in Ireland during a severe could spell over a week, unreliable energy generation failed to contribute when it was most needed. This was a huge failure for the Wind industry in Ireland, yet the propaganda units for renewables have not been taken to task for their failure.

Pa ElGrande

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120035389#Comment_120035389

Going by the photo he lives up to the stereotype, that the devotees of XR’s Eco-apocalypse live nice, modern lives.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUHk2RSMCS8

Capt'n Midnight

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120024458#Comment_120024458

Hydrogen is an energy store for when you can't use natural gas. So not used to power whole grids - yet. As we ramp up renewables we'll still be able to use natural gas, just less of it. From 2030 - 2050 we've to drop from 20% of current emissions to zero. That's when hydrogen could be used.

Hydrogen production from natural gas represents ~3% of global energy use , similar to nuclear hardly pie in the sky. Norway has cheap electricity and they've been producing hydrogen from water on a large scale since the 1920's.

There's already pipelines from powerplants to gas fields so it's a retro fit.

Capt'n Midnight

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120024489#Comment_120024489

Siemens and GE have promised to deliver turbines meeting 2030 standards. Even if the can't NOX can be removed by a hot pre burn, adding water, or by scrubbing. It's a case of picking the best off the shelf solution.

Salt water ? 50 years ago one answer would have been mechanical vapour recompression which would have saved 99% of the thermal energy used to distil water. But ultrafiltration uses even less energy. And if you located the hydrolysers beside the fuel cells or turbines then you can recycle the water. Or you could just get water from the mains. And there are electrolysers that work with high chloride levels

30 years ? Right to occupy the Maritime Area Consents (MACs) lasts 45 years and developers pay an annual levy to the State. So either 40 year turbines or a mid life refurb.

By 2030 the ESB doc says 5GW of offshore wind by 2030 (page 3) so the bulk will built later when price fall like the prices in the UK have dropped 73% in recent years and the US plans to drop costs by 75% by 2035. Using yesterday's floating costs for 30GW instead of tomorrows shallow water costs is just trying to muddy the waters.

Are there any costs for Sizewell-C other than it should have a total strike price of £30Bn less than Hinkley-C (ie closer to €100bn than £100Bn) ?

Pa ElGrande

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120025389#Comment_120025389

This is a problem, in that a series of top down directives are imposed on citizens and subjects of various countries without their consent. None of this is put to a democratic vote and when it is, it's rejected (Switzerland). Such laws rubber-stamped by the Irish legislature are not reflected in the primary concerns of the majority electorate who elected said representatives, who then go on to implement a technocratic agenda that their constituents do not support. This is a developing political fault line, expect for independent TDs there is no place to turn for the Irish electorate in 2022-23

There is worse in the pipleline if we let it: Deutsche Bank: “A Certain Degree of Eco-Dictatorship Will Be Necessary”

https://twitter.com/BernieSpofforth/status/1605820678585958401

Climate policy is not simply a single issue facing the Irish electorate, right across EU countries and the UK, the democratic deficit will either usher in a new era of command and control economies if permitted or it will be the straw that breaks the EUs back combined with several other issues. I cannot see any possibility of economic success for the current pathway that deliberately as a matter of climate policy restricts availability of food and energy, especially when combined with massive debt.

Capt'n Midnight

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120032318#Comment_120032318

Even if solar only took care of the daily peak during summer months it would be useful. But with 5GW on a good summers day it could easily be our main power source. It would also mean less gas needed during summer leaving we could use more of our ration in winter reducing the need for storage.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120027577#Comment_120027577

400MW Skerd Rocks (map on last page) is one of the seven Maritime Area Consents for Offshore Wind Energy projects to participate in the ORESS 1, the first auction for offshore wind under the Renewable Electricity Support Scheme (RESS).

And it's unlikely that out of the 5GW for 2030 that 1GW will be built off the west coast as conditions are easier off the east.

Podge_irl

It has consent through our democratically elected government and equally democratically elected governments across Europe.

Pa ElGrande

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120036473#Comment_120036473

Even by your terms it fails the criteria for consent of the electorate, as a prime example the climate emergency was passed by 6 TDs out of 160. Most TDs are fully aware they lack consent of their constituencies on the issue otherwise they would have turned up to vote. Further evidence can be seen in the action of the main state media organisation that have to be bribed, incentivised to push the message, and the free reign of a smear site contributor such as John Gibbons on national air waves with no serious debate permitted. As I said previously, Irish politics in 2022 rests on a 3 legged stool, one leg is the golden goose (the MNCs), the other the EU and the third is local politics, it is the job of the Irish politician to balance the demands of their electorate with the demands of both the EU and MNCs.

Coolcormack1979

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120035806#Comment_120035806

Plus by killing 300,000 cattle in this country while Brazil is going to increase numbers by 24 million.😂

Capt'n Midnight

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120035850#Comment_120035850

If the wind prediction is accurate but there's a short fall in overall power then that's a failure for the dispatchable industry, nothing to do wind.

Texas is special though.

Feb 2021 was the worst weather in 72 years. So at least 50:50 chance of happening during a plant operating for 36 years. What makes it worse was that in 2011 they had similar problems leading to 75% of the state having rolling blackouts but didn't heed the warning.

Texas saved money by not winterising plant to Federal standards AND not having enough spare capacity online. Had they done either then hundreds of people might not have died. Not being up to Federal standards meant they weren't connected to other US grids. Not having spare capacity meant cascade failures exacerbated by not having backup generators for the gas pumps so the gas power stations flickered out one by one. And the gas plant companies that failed got a windfall as the ones that stayed up charged truly extortionate prices.

Some people have wondered how “pressure sensing lines” for a feed water pump could have been affected by cold outside air temperatures. There are no turbine halls at STP, both of steam turbines are out in the open air. Note : The reactors at South Texas had 5GW of excess heat. And the Comanche Peak Nuclear Power Plant came within three minutes of shut down.

Feb 2021 in Texas wind stayed well above the 2GB they were expected to produce until after the nuclear and gas generators had lost 15 GW. "Approximately 35 GWe of installed thermal generating capacity was not producing electricity for a significant portion of the day on Feb 15."

But blame wind. (Turbines weren't winterised to Federal standards)

Nuclear is the power source that's most likely to be offline for a full decade, cf. 10% of global reactors.

Pa ElGrande

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120036895#Comment_120036895

If the wind prediction is accurate but there's a short fall in overall power then that's a failure for the dispatchable industry, nothing to do wind.

• By that logic, future power shortfalls will be Met Eireanns fault and NOT wind & solar generators inadequate storage.
• When there is too much power generated by wind & solar, electricity consumers pay curtailment via the public service obligation levy.
• The plan calls for growth in electricity consumption (heating and transport), dispatchable plant must be expanded to provide the backup, however, as part of climate policy our governments are closing down dispatchable power plant, and they are deliberately making fuel unaffordable (ratchet up of more carbon taxes).

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120036384#Comment_120036384

So we won’t get that geographic spread of wind before 2030 which is a huge problem.

We need the west coast offshore to help offset the low wind in other areas- if in fact this will work at all.

batman_oh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120036756#Comment_120036756

Yeah but it's better for the environment if Brazil do that, level all their forests to achieve it and then ship it to us to eat. Because green idiot logic

So we've seen petrol stations, factories, schools and pubs installing a boat load of solar. Next up, sports stadiums

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/munster/arid-41034413.html

At the rate things are going we'll smash the solar target for 2025

23 renewable energy projects connected to the grid this year for 688MW of new generation bringing the total renewable generation to 5,400MW.

In addition, 79MW of battery storage was connected in 2022, bringing the country's total energy storage capacity to 800MW.

Great progress!

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2022/1227/1343550-esb-networks-renewable/

JRant

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120037656#Comment_120037656

Despite all this new renewable power on the grid we still had less capacity from it this year than we did 2 years ago.

JRant

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120037633#Comment_120037633

It's great to see initiatives like this. I would like to see the numbers backing up some of the claims in the article though, especially this

“Homes which install solar panels can achieve average savings in their electricity bills of 30% to 50% while business can achieve average savings of between 20% to 40%, depending on the space available for the solar panels. Some businesses can obviously achieve higher savings,” he said.

Seems to be a very generous saving from what I've seen from solar to date.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120037738#Comment_120037738

You should contact the businesses from the articles and ask them. Be sure to share the info here

Pa ElGrande

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120037656#Comment_120037656

The article is the usual puff piece and it is missing essential information like costs, return on investment and lifecycle of the equipment. How much is this going to lower my electricity bill next year?

5400 MW nameplate capacity means nothing, the turbine and solar operators never deliver that. Second they do not state how many megawatt hours (MWH) they intend to deliver or have delivered this year. 5400 x 24 x 365 = 47,304,000 MWh (47,304 GWh) at 100% capacity factor, at 30% capacity factor that's 14,191,200 MWh (14,191 GWh) over the course of a year. Capacity factor is worse for solar (11%) That's quite a short coming that has to be made up with 100% dispatchable power (coal, oil, gas and inter-connectors). Nor do they quote any figures in MWh for waste i.e. curtailment that is paid out of the public service obligation (PSO) levy tacked on the end of consumer bills. Interesting side note, In the UK some operators have discovered it is possible to get paid twice for the same electricity, they get paid for the curtailment and then proceed to supply the power directly to an industrial operator. There are transmission losses to consider as well.

Per the CSO total metered consumption was 28,506 GWh in 2021.

The wind blew less in 2021 compared with 2020 and coupled with increased electricity demand, wind generation as a percentage of demand fell back to just under 31%. This is down from over 37% in 2020.

For all of 2021, wind generated approximately 9,548 GWh and supplied on average 30.9% of electricity demand compared with 37.7% in 2020. This was 13.7% lower than in 2020. Overall electricity demand was up 5.4% at the end of 2021 compared with 2020. SOURCE

In that article battery storage was not quoted in MWh. How long does that 800MW battery capacity last? For instance the recent battery storage added in Aghada, Cork can only deliver 19 MW for 2 hours (38 MWh). Peak demand in freezing weather ~7,000MWh, though more normal weather conditions around ~5000 MWh. Battery output and storage varies with temperature. I have no figures for the efficiency of the Aghada installation during the recent week of freezing temperatures. Given unreliable energy generation effectively stopped for that week with record demand, how were those batteries re-charged? We are being led to believe that cheap surplus wind generation will charge batteries. . . . but it's not very cheap.

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120037815#Comment_120037815

Classy choice of language there, but aside from that, the high price of electricity is because of the high cost of gas. If it wasn't for the renewable generation gas prices would be even higher, and so would your bills

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120037863#Comment_120037863

It's funny to watch

Gas goes to 40 eur/MW = OMFG wind wtf!!

Gas goes to 100 eur/MW = OMFG wind wtf!!

Gas goes to 300 eur/MW = OMFG wind wtf!!

Reduced gas being consumed due to wind =OMFG wind wtf!!

The very same folks want more expensive gas in the grid and then wonder why electricity is expensive when we use gas to create it

It's gas stuff altogether

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120037998#Comment_120037998

Your argument breaks down when you realise there was valid planning permission for the LNG terminal for a decade that the owners choose not to use 🤷‍♂️

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120038180#Comment_120038180

Again, there was valid planning permission for the LNG terminal to be built, fully approved, that the owners choose to not use for a decade 🤷‍♂️

Blaming others begins to look ridiculous when confronted with the facts

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120037895#Comment_120037895

It’s gas craic altogether da cor!

Thank god for gas keeping the lights on when wind generates close to zero quite often.

nihicib2

I've been lurking in this thread for a while and need to pick your brains, we have a debate in school in a few weeks time, our motion is "The policies of the Green Party are improving living standards in Ireland". We're doing it through Gaeilge so this is the best translation of the motion, we're with the motion, so actually agreeing with it 😖

For the first time in debating I'm struggling with the motion, I've gotten some valid points from this thread but I just can't get a handle on it, basically because of what I've also read on this thread, especially when it comes to contradicting the teams opposing us, any nuggets of wisdom folks?

prunudo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120038202#Comment_120038202

If it wasn't so serious it would actually be comical. He won't be happy till modern life grinds to a halt due to an inaction on energy security. Blindly spouting his wind/solar/wave mantra while we edge ever closer to 2030 and nothing gets done.

antoinolachtnai

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120037971#Comment_120037971

Still waiting for you to explain your figures for Finnish interconnection.

using today’s nuclear technology (or indeed the technology of the last twenty years) the only way to operate a nuclear plant would be to curtail imports on Ireland’s electricity interconnectors so that there would be backup available in the case of a trip. It would be pointless.

nihicib2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120038294#Comment_120038294

Oh for goodness sake, it's about debating skills and arguing your point and refuting others, as in all of the previous debates and motions we've done, nobody has to believe what they are saying just present it correctly. Im sorry I asked now, thought Id get a reasonable response!

antoinolachtnai

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120038305#Comment_120038305

Your calculations comparing costs for different types of generation are as bogus as your electrical engineering knowledge, sadly!

Pa ElGrande

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120038219#Comment_120038219

Well, best of luck. The title does sound like political indoctrination, ahem, market research meant to drive membership of the Green party, given the penetration of An Taisce (an arm of the Green party) in schools curriculum, this bias should not be surprising. The best place to start is their policies page and how these distinguish them from other political parties policies, especially Sinn Fein. Anyone opposing the motion must also research Green party policies to be able to counter the motion.

If on the other hand you want to have fun and strike fear in the moderators, frame it in a way that shows how the Green party influences Sinn Fein and how current Green party policies and actions open the door for Sinn Fein to advance the Green party agenda in the next government.

P.S. A real debate would focus on a single topic that would seek to answer one question and understand the pros and cons of that topic. The Green party has many policies so the debate can wander all over the place else it will reinforce Greens marketing. Essentially you have to put yourself in Eamons Ryans shoes and defend the Greens actions in the current government, which is what the opposition in the debate will attack on. To win the motion you have to build the argument that the political parties all support your goals and have voted for them in the Dail since real opposition to the Greens in the Dail only comes from about 10 independents.