"Green" policies are destroying this country

machiavellianme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121134779#Comment_121134779

OK, if you say so. However, I've yet to see a single truth posted by you so call me dubious. Simple counterpoint:

Why did the greens push for diesel, despite the higher toxic particulate emissions?

To help jog your memory:

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-20104949.html

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121134844#Comment_121134844

Jaysus, my eyes lol, you love your links, even the ones that disprove your own claims.

Of course, the corporate sector has always made up a large proportion of new car sales, and these figures may not come as a great shock to industry insiders. In total, so-called ‘fleet’ sales made up 53 percent of all new car registrations last year, while private customers accounted for just 44 percent of the market.

And VW are screwed because they are offering a poor product at a bad price point i.e. they are losing out to competition. Again, your own link states as much

Alas, even when presented with govt data you make silly claims and it does not change the fact that the market for diesel cars is collapsing, both here and the UK.

prunudo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121134886#Comment_121134886

My recollection is that the policy was mainly based off the idea of range and better fuel efficiency from diesel and from diesel engines being more refined than in the past when compared to petrol.

Regarding Sunak, I think the only people up in arms are politicians and climate activists. The general public and voters will thank him for it.

creedp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121135082#Comment_121135082

The policy was structured so as to favour low CO2 emissions above all else. Lower VRT, motor tax and fuel taxes for private motorists all based on CO2 emissions only, everything else ignored.

Martyn Turner hitting the nail on the head

Blut2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121135193#Comment_121135193

That was the key issue. Even at the time it was well known diesel engines were far more damaging when it came to localised pollution, but our Greens decided the health of their constituents was secondary to slightly lowering Ireland's overall co2 emissions.

It was a bonkers policy at the time, and it looks even worse with the benefit of hindsight now. And whats scariest is they have a lot of the same decision makers in the party still.

WishUWereHere

can This clown not get his own house in order before sticking his snout in another jurisdiction?

https://www.thejournal.ie/rishi-sunak-climate-targets-6173240-Sep2023/

Can Ryan not worry about his own people first?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121135528#Comment_121135528

and ye get so cranky when he does

roosterman71

Few things on points raised the last few pages:

• The greens changed the tax system for motor vehicles based on CO2. How are ye even trying to rewrite history? Everything about it is based on CO2
• Interesting to see the UK delay changes. I reckon a lot of the EU may follow suit post the European elections next year.
• Martyn Turner can go **** himself
• Rewetting bogs will capture CO2, but releases methane

And speaking of methane, it's noted that the amount of methane released by gas is something like 137million ton/year. This is gas burnt off during/post extraction/leaks for reasons I don't know, and isn't from the gas used. Methane from ruminants is around 97million t/year, plus management of ruminants, especially on grassland is part of the biogenic cycle (carbon neutral in other words).

Pa ElGrande

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121133949#Comment_121133949

This is electioneering, stalling, they are not changing. Rishi Sunak is attempting to goad Labour leader Keith Starmer into doubling down on net-zero, causing them to lose their voters like in the case of ULEZ.

Shoog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121136154#Comment_121136154

Methane is far more of a greenhouse gas than co2 so anything which produces methane is more significant with regard to it's emissions. Hence cattle are highlighted as a significant issue.

The elephant in the room is the fracking explosion in the USA, it's fugitive emissions just about wipe out all the positive things that America has achieved in climate change reductions. Every single well head, pump station and compression unit within the American gas industry is emitting methane to the atmosphere.

The fugitive emissions from the American fracking industry is a festering sore which will blight the planet for centuries as each abandoned well head will continue to release methane in perpetuity. The industries own data shows that 100% of well casing leak over their lifetime. It may be the single biggest factor in us failing to prevent catestrophic climate change and our own eventual extinction.

This is why any potential gateway for American LNG is a significant contributor to climate change and why the LNG terminal in Shannon should be resisted at all costs. Any claims that such a terminal would not be used to import American Fracked gas is as good as the tissue paper they would be written on. America has been pushing both the gas and the technology that produces it for the last two decades, once the door is opened we would start importing Fracked gas and that is the single biggest reason to applaude the rejection of the Shannon LNG terminal.

machiavellianme

Releases methane in perpetuity @Shoog? That's impressive. Are there microorganisms or is there something else down there creating this everlasting methane? If so, why aren't we harnessing it? The greens here are telling us of the importance of biomethane and how it needs to be injected into our gas network to make it green. Why is it specifically being vented over there or separated through some magic of only leaking the bad stuff forever?

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121136154#Comment_121136154

Nobody is denying that the greens changed the motor tax and VRT regime to promote lower CO2 emitting vehicles.

Ah the end of the day, all diesels sold after 2007 had to have a DPF filter which if properly maintained cut down 99% of particulate emissions. And while Diesel emits NOx, so does Petrol. Diesel produces about 30% more NOx than petrol.

Both types of vehicles are toxic to human health and cause global warming. Ultimately we need to remove both from our cities to reduce illness and smog. And the green motor tax reforms also introduced cheaper taxes for hybrids and BEVs.

Of course the people who pretend to oppose the greens for harming human health by promoting Diesel also have a big problem with the greens promoting BEVs.

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121136796#Comment_121136796

You sure love nitpicking a single word and ignoring the entire point someone else had made.

You must be great fun to chat to down the pub

deholleboom

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121136265#Comment_121136265

I wouldnt be so sure about that. Agreed, it is everything you said except i see the stalling as an attempt to be able to shift when needed. Coupled with that it is becoming clear that the window of opportunity for fast green climate measures is closing. The current economic outlook for the next 5-7 years looks increasingly bad. By the time we get to 2030 it is highly likely a new wind is blowing. So to me, stalling looks like changing given the outlook. What the future will look like for the establishment parties is anyone's guess..

Shoog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121136796#Comment_121136796

Once you frack the ground and the well effectively becomes uneconomical there is still substantial methane left. It escapes through the well casing and around the well itself. The tail of these emissions is so long that if is effectively for ever. There are 10s of thousands of abandoned wells across America because each Fracked well head has a very short production life - each one giving off methane for the foreseeable future.https://theconversation.com/methane-emissions-spike-natural-gas-production-fracking-and-agriculture-is-one-the-main-culprit-121868

JRant

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121133545#Comment_121133545

I can't imagine living in a world where literally everyone who I disagree with it a Nazi. It must be exhausting for you.

Shoog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121136863#Comment_121136863

The British Tories have a very far right policy platform and were aligned with Victor Orbans party when EU members. They formed their own hard right grouping in the EU parliament because the other conservative parties were not extreme enough for them. They are exactly as described - proto fascists.

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121134844#Comment_121134844

EVs were more expensive for the early adopters when new. Depreciation is high now as the price of new BEVs is falling, the technology is improving so early adopters will be hit with big depreciation. Even if the depreciation is high, the savings in fuel, tax and servicing can often more than offset the entire depreciation bill when compared with an equivalent ICE car so the total cost of ownership for an ICE car can still be higher over the 3 or 4 years even accounting for depreciation (this depends on how many KMs the car is driven)

It is pretty funny that all the 'anti greens' opposed BEVs for so long because they were too expensive. Now that the prices are falling, the same people are saying people shouldn't buy BEVs because they depreciate too fast

I wonder is there another agenda at play here 🤔

You can always fiddle the stats to make that point one way or the other as these cars are never exactly equivalent,

To take a single car as an example, one where there is a petrol and BEV version on sale at the same time. People can compare the base 1 litre Kona petrol which costs about 23k new in 2019, with a long range BEV version of the Kona which cost 38k new. But those are different specifications, with the base model BEV having a much higher spec than the base ICE version, so you should really compare a higher spec ICE Kona with the Base BEV if you're doing a cost comparison. In 2023, the base Kona ICE is now 30k, with a 32kw version of the electric Kona for 32k. This is a much more competitive proposition, and will obviously affect the used values for 64 kw Konas from 4 years ago.

(I still think the BEV Kona was overpriced for what it is, but again, those prices are falling, and the early adopters always pay more at this point in the adoption curve)

JRant

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121136880#Comment_121136880

I don't agree with a lot of the conservative party policies but calling them fascists is laughable. You can disagree with policy without denigrating the people who are proposing them.

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121134886#Comment_121134886

It didn't 'demonise' petrol

It actually made a lot of petrol cars significantly cheaper to buy and run than they were in the old taxation regime. It demonised inefficient highly polluting cars in a way that was less crude than just the displacement size of the engine.

Small petrol cars were in the same tax band as their small diesel equivalents because both would have been in the lowest CO2 category in 2008.

The greens didn't promote Diesel for everyone. They promoted low CO2 vehicles. The fact that people ended up buying small diesel cars is more to do with the motor trade blowing smoke up the consumers arses than the greens tax policy. If you wanted a small 1 litre petrol car, you could buy them with the same tax discounts and low motor tax as a similar sized diesel.

People went for diesel because the fuel was cheaper and the economy was better, but the motor industry never told consumers that those savings only mattered if the user was doing high milage, and that the costs of servicing turbo Diesels were higher than small naturally aspirated petrol engines.

If you're opposed to the greens because your granny was tricked into buying a Diesel Yaris in 2008 instead of the petrol one she should have bought, then you should really be getting mad at the fellah who sold her the car that didn't suit her needs.

Cal4567

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121137200#Comment_121137200

I'm coming to the conclusion that those under 40 of a leftist persuasion just label anyone they deem to be right of them, as a facist. Bandied about with little understanding.

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121136863#Comment_121136863

Neither can I, because I don't live in that world either.

I never used the word Nazi

I said proto fascist, not to describe 'everyone'. I used this to describe 2 parties, the GOP in the US, and the Tories in the UK, because they are going down that dangerous road towards fascism.

Not just in relation to environmental issues. They are extremely right wing economically and socially too.

Economic and social conditions in the UK are deteriorating before our eyes.

They're not Nazis, they're not fascists yet (although individually, some of them certainly are fascist sympathisers)

Shoog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121137200#Comment_121137200

Just because they don't wear spiffy uniforms like their role models, doesnt mean that they do not drink from the same well of ideas. They are a nationalist party that put their ideology above the interests of the country they were supposed to be managing. Nationalism of this type is one of the fundamental hallmarks of fascists. This is just their most obvious example.

The Tories were not proto fascists when I grew up in the 70-80, they made a series of policy choices since 2000 which have dragged them to the hard right and to becoming comfortable bedfellows of the likes of Orban and key organisers of hard right wing politics in Europe.

machiavellianme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121136821#Comment_121136821

If that word undermines the entire argument, then yes. This is the problem with the Green argument. If there's anything unpleasant, it can be glossed over or ignored. Anyone pointing it out is clearly wrong.

I'm sure you are the most interesting person in the pub, especially if the quality of your input is similar to your posts, with such keen insights and witty interjections. But I'm surprised you would go at all, what with all that dreadful Co2 vented, nevermind the extra high production of biomethane and other noxious gasses.

JRant

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121137273#Comment_121137273

You don't get to redefine words just to suit yourself. Own it, you called them Nazis or did you mean the good fascists like in Franco's Spain? I'm completely lost at calling them environmental fascists though. That's a completely made up term with no substance behind it. A bit like the weasel words "proto-fascist".

There are always swings from right to left and back again. It's a natural part of government.

Looking for secure borders and energy supply doesn't make someone a fascist, although some of their rhetoric is a bit beyond the pale for me, I would rather have an open discussion and argue the merits of it rather than jumping straight to name calling.

JRant

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121137299#Comment_121137299

Are the Biden government Fascists then? They have implemented more protectionist policies than any other administration in living memory?

They also caused one of the largest eco terrorist events in world history by blowing up those pipelines but that's completely glossed over.

Shoog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121137327#Comment_121137327

Protectionism is not a hallmark of right wing politics.

Let's take another example, the Tories have had a hard on for withdrawing from the European Court of Human Rights (nothing to do with the EU and a court they were a founding member of) for a decade now - do you imagine they want to do that because they anticipate their policies falling fowl of that court ?

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121134899#Comment_121134899

That was one of BJ's big things that the UK were going to ban the new ICE sales before the EU. Sunak has brought them back in line with EU policy. He's probably managed to sway some on-the-fence Tory voters but he'll also have swayed a lot of on-the-fence Labour voters the other direction with this

creedp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121137210#Comment_121137210

My point still stands that it was an ill judged policy implemented without proper consideration of its implications for the Irish motoring public. It wasnt just granny in her 1L diesel yaris that was hoodwinked by the big bad motor industry, it was not a financial runner to buy a petrol family car post 2008 so much so that manufacturers stopped supplying them here.