"Green" policies are destroying this country

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121165303#Comment_121165303

They only really impact small aspects of the bay. You cant see either from large parts of Dublin Bay.

The windfarms would be visible from almost everywhere and are obviously actually in the sea, rather than on land.

I have seen them in large numbers off some UK coasts and they look awful from every angle.

We will always differ on opinion on this one I think, respectfully.

Thelonious Monk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121165320#Comment_121165320

yeah we will, i like the look of offshore windfarms. plus i mean if a view not being to certain people's liking is what's holding us back from being energy self sufficient and not reaching our climate goals then we may as well give up and start fracking or something.

Blut2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121164222#Comment_121164222

In 2020 the Green party got 7.1% of the vote. They're polling at 3% currently, well less than half of that. About 60% of the people who voted for the Greens in the last election are saying they've done so badly in government they won't vote for them again.

This is at a time of supposed climate crisis, with climate change constantly in the news. And yet they're still losing support, from an already low base. Its almost impressive. Its rather definitive proof that the Irish electorate isn't prioritising climate change as an issue.

Shoog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121164885#Comment_121164885

If you build a combination of onshore and offshore that almost never happens. For those times there is gas.

Blut2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121163785#Comment_121163785

If you're an ardent supporter of climate action plans and targets, and in any way rational, then you'd be voting for the Green party. They're the only party in Ireland likely to stick to climate action plans or targets.

Polls show support for extremely vague policies, but when asked if they support such policies at an economic cost to themselves the vast majority of voters say no. Which is why 97% of Irish people don't plan on voting for the one party in this country that prioritises them.

To use your analogy, it would be like a nationalist who has a united Ireland as their #1 issue voting for FG - a party that tried to have RIC commenorations recently, and has made frequent overtures to unionists over the years. That would be a rather foolish voter.

prunudo

Anyone who thinks installing 6-800 turbines, some as close as 10km to the coast, from Killiney to Gorey won't have an impact on the horizon or vistas is naive. Bare in mind, these turbines are huge, with tip heights above 200m and bigger, thats almost as high as Bray head.

Now the question is, are we willing to accept their visul impact as a trade off for cleaner energy production. Only time will tell, personally think it will be very intrusive and much worse than many imagine. But, put it this way, I'd rather them at sea than in the Wicklow hills.

Shoog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121165473#Comment_121165473

Action on climate and energy security are part of the main parties agendas. They are because they are a legally binding committment. The Green party is not the only show in town and they having no real track record of managing an economy so are not taken particularly seriously.

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121165324#Comment_121165324

We can still be energy efficient without putting windfarms in the countries most popular bay though.

We can do both.

But lets see what happens.

Shoog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121165526#Comment_121165526

I live in an area which has two generations of turbines on the mountain opposite my house. Have loved the sight for the last twenty years and value the contribution they make. Cannot remember a single complaint from my neighbours either.

Was staggered and impressed when I first saw the windfarm on St George's bank.

Not everyone is a nimby.

creedp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121163785#Comment_121163785

For a bit of balance it could equally be said that you are falling into the trap of thinking that everyone who invest in green technology is a climate change activist

prunudo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121165703#Comment_121165703

Each to their own, I'd say the amount of people 'love the sight' is few and far between. Tolerate yes but love is a bit strong. They are a blot on the natural landscape but I accept their need.

But again going back to the offshore farms. Even though they are 5 or 6 individual projects there will essentially be turbines for 80km along the coastline. I don't think people appreciate how intense that will make once they're all in place.

Jizique

Everyone is falling into the trap that the companies that build these need more money, an awful lot more money, before they will turn a sod.

What worked in a zero interest rate environment doesn't work when rates are at 4%, at 5%. And how we laughed and sniggered at Truss and her "unfunded" budget, but let's wait and see what happens if the govts concede to Orsted and the rest of the offshore developers. These projects are fantasy at this stage, whether west coast or Dublin Bay.

Shoog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121165813#Comment_121165813

So we stop building infrastructure ... any infrastructure, since your argument is universally applicable.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121165418#Comment_121165418

Yeah and that's why they will definitely fail outside of Dublin

It would be definitive proof if the green party were the only party willing to tackle climate change but as previously stated they are not the only party with such proposals

ps200306

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121162335#Comment_121162335

My basic objection to this is that the science says we either get to net zero or we create a planet which is effectively uninhabitable for us humans. The net zero bit isn't arguable, how we can realistically get to it is open for discussion and differences of ideological approach.

The science says absolutely nothing of the sort. This nonsense spouted by full-fledged cult members and their willing acolytes needs to be challenged.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121165763#Comment_121165763

I'm not aware of having made that leap anywhere

Shoog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121166434#Comment_121166434

Sorry but that's exactly what the science says. There is an inhabited band around the world where temps are regularly reaching 50c for sustained periods. That is the temp at which people die. Thats what is happening at just under 1.5c warming.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121165473#Comment_121165473

They're the only party in Ireland likely to stick to climate action plans or targets.

Sigh, this again. I think I need to make a copy of my response and just copy & paste it each time this is thrown out there

Ireland has signed up to International & EU commitments, legal commitments, to reduce emissions and achieve net zero.

We have also set up our own legislation and resulting Acts in a manner that allow for flexibility in how we achieve those targets, but not missing those targets.

Where moves are made to do otherwise, the courts force the govt back to the drawing board, its literally how we got our current climate action legislation and set the template for a lot of the current climate cases around the world i.e. a govt that publishes an emissions target has to be able to show how it can achieve it in a realistic manner and in a way that can be understood by any voter

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_Case_Ireland

Indeed, even the current plan, that so many here rail against, is currently facing legal challenge as being too weak

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/campaigners-get-high-court-nod-to-challenge-states-inadequate-climate-action-plan/a1577417399.html

In addition, all parties, and I mean all, voted for the climate action plans and associated legislation.

So any future govt is 100% entitled to modify any element of the action plans, but only insofar as it continues on track to meet the target or speeds it up. Any moves to deliberately miss targets will be struck down when challenged in the courts.

Thats only here. There would also be a legal challenge mounted by the EU itself in such a case.

roosterman71

People keep forgetting that the government, and EU, can change the laws to "relax" climate goals and actions. See the UK for example. If there's votes in it, it will be done.

On the turbines, I say fill Dublin bay with them. Dublin is probably the biggest user of power in the country. Only right that as much of that is sourced locally.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121166555#Comment_121166555

The UK are not in the EU

This is a positive move towards safer streets. Might shift a few more to sustainable modes of travel

https://irishcycle.com/2023/09/26/new-road-traffic-sign-to-allow-bicycle-street-concept-to-be-implemented-in-ireland

A new road traffic sign is to be introduced in Ireland to allow the ‘Bicycle Street‘ concept — where bicycles are indicated to have priority — to be implemented here.

‘Bicycle streets’ — or, as the report calls them, ‘Cycle Streets’ — are streets where there is a focus on cycling priority. The concept is used in a number of countries including Belgium, the Netherlands, Germany, and others.

The concept is usually applied to quiet streets, for example on a route parallel street to a main road or on a service street to the side of the main road. In all cases, motorists still have access to the street.

Jizique

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121166563#Comment_121166563

Not yet

Shoog

The UK is still signed up to Net Zero. Expect to see a court case if they try to dump that.

One of the Brexit wheezes was the notion that you could ignore international law - but an international treaty signed into law is testable in the domestic courts and you can bet it would be tested in court.

ps200306

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121162536#Comment_121162536

I know it's an unpopular notion round here but oil companies stopped seriously investing in their infrastructure at about the time they worked out climate change was real, that's many decades ago.

That's an extraordinary claim -- one that fails to meet the most basic evidentiary test:

(sources: IMF and GIS)

Anyone vaguely familiar with the history of oil can easily explain the swings in the that graph. The oil industry has always been cyclical -- high prices spur investment, leading to gluts and reduced investment. The twin Arab oil embargos of the 1970s spurred both massive investment and recession, ultimately leading to a collapse in oil prices. Investment dawdled through the 80s and early 90s, until economic growh picked up and oil started to suffer from under-investment. Investment then rocketed, and the shale boom started in the mid 2000s. Even the recession and price drops caused by the GFC in 2008 hardly dented investment. What did finally do it was the Saudis putting the squeeze on US producers by flooding the markets in 2014 leading to a price collapse. This was further exacerbated by Covid. Now we are back at the bottom of the classic investment cycle. Investment has started to recover, however this time round there are new political roadblocks:

The oil industry has long said lower investment in oil and gas in the absence of a reduction in oil demand will only lead to higher prices.

"The mistake is to think that if we diminish the investments in the existing system, in oil and gas, then the money will be transferred. No. The reality is if we do it that way, the price will go back up," Patrick Pouyanne, the chief of France's top company TotalEnergies (TTEF.PA), said.

OPEC ministers and oil companies have said restrictions on access to bank loans for fossil fuel projects have deprived the industry of investments needed to even maintain existing production levels.

(source: Reuters)

Looks like this is still on track. To be honest I thought the kick-off date was going to slip by a few months, good to see it hasn't

https://www.rte.ie/news/environment/2023/0927/1407658-deposit-return-scheme/

Further details on the legal challenge against the Irish govt

https://www.rte.ie/brainstorm/2023/0927/1407395-climate-action-plan-ireland-legal-challenge-friends-of-the-irish-environment-cap-23/

This confirms what I stated above, if the actions can't show they will reduce emissions to allow us to hit the targets, then they will be challenged

The legal challenge recently launched by Friends of the Irish Environment (an environmental NGO) against the Government's Climate Action Plan 2023 (CAP23) and its Annex of Actions belongs in this category of systemic or framework climate cases. The environmental NGO was granted leave (permission) to proceed with its judicial review challenge. The leave stage of judicial review operates as a screening process to filter out unmeritorious claims. The second-stage, full hearing should take place at a later date.

The crux of the case is that the CAP 23 and its Annex of Actions breach Ireland’s recently amended Climate Act because the Plan fails to set out the detail necessary to show how exactly the government plans to reduce emissions in line with the legally binding carbon budgets. Under the Climate Act, the annually updated Climate Action Plan and its Annex of Actions are meant to set out a roadmap of actions (i.e. the climate measures and policies) needed to stay within the carbon budgets.

A game changing feature of the amended Climate Act is the introduction of a system of legally-binding carbon budgets, which set out the total amount of emissions that may be emitted by the state during a five-year period. The carbon budgets are therefore an important metric for legally permissible emissions. According to Friends of the Irish Environment, the CAP23 needs to quantify the emission reductions expected from the implementation of the climate measures and policies in the Plan to comply with the requirements of the Climate Act.

creedp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121166434#Comment_121166434

Maybe in 250m years

https://emea01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.msn.com%2Fen-gb%2Fnews%2Fworld%2Fclimate-change-study-puts-expiration-date-on-all-mammals%2Far-AA1hk2Uh%3Focid%3Dhwminus%26appid%3Dhwbrowser%26ctype%3Dnews&data=05%7C01%7C%7C5d6a31d02e8d4a40b1dc08dbbf9c9932%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C638314451531146151%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=0sQh30%2FNukSsySg61%2BXDdrYZGE81SGpsw6awgiCu%2FOk%3D&reserved=0

Blut2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121165535#Comment_121165535

Based on their actions in government (before the Greens were part of it) what exactly makes you think any of our other parties will actually make serious, costly, decisions on climate change? Once the Greens are destroyed in the next election, and all the low hanging fruit of things like BER renovations that actually benefit people have been plucked, none of FF/FG/SF will be pushing other measures.

Atlantic Dawn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121166610#Comment_121166610

This would have been a great idea before household waste collection was privatised, now we already have a recycling infrastructure in place to collect recyclables from homes in every urban area of the country. We now will have to decommission and reduce all the trucks collecting this waste and increase the charges that companies charge householders as there will be a big reduction in valuable recoverable materials they can sell on.

Good luck getting supermarkets to provide spacing for all this recycling and additionally I'd love to see the emissions impact of purchasing about 500 new vehicles and the emissions from them collecting all this up.

Worst green idea in the history of the State.

Blut2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121166497#Comment_121166497

Our government has made a lot of committments on paper, yes. In reality we're breaking almost all of them already, and will only break more.

Follow the actual, real world figures here and not politicians promises.

Ireland's co2 emissions have remained largely static since 2010, despite all of the great talk. They've actually increased the last 3 years in a row, by 12.3% last year alone: https://www.irishexaminer.com/business/economy/arid-41139556.html

This is because none of our political parties other than the Greens actually really care about this issue. Its not a vote winner, because 97%+ of the Irish population doesn't prioritise it.