"Green" policies are destroying this country

ps200306 · 29-09-2023 5:30pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121173372#Comment_121173372

I've heard it all now. Your solution to deadly heatwaves for people without electricity is to jump into a 19th century propane powered fridge. The heat won't kill them at least...

Well, no. I was just responding to your "you can light a fire to avoid dying of cold". Turns out you can light a fire to stop dying of heat too. Obviously a better option would be to have a modern grid and air conditioning. But when I suggested that, you suddenly got all worried that electricity grids aren't reliable... which is a bit rich coming from someone who wants to run the grid on unreliables.

Giving 'Massive amounts of new energy' to poor people is actually a good idea, but all the 'new energy' n the world won't make their former homes any less uninhabitable if there are deadly heatwaves happening multiple times per year, killing people and the animals and the crops they depend on for food.

You make it sound as if all the places prone to these heatwaves would be veritable paradises if it weren't for climate change. Many are hell holes already. Much of the southern USA is uninhabitable without air conditioning. I've had people collapse beside me from heat and that was just in Tennessee, let alone southern Louisiana or Alabama. I've experienced 40C wet bulb temperatures at night time in New Orleans.

It's even scarier looking at cities on the Arabian peninsula. Humans live in very artificial environments. It is true to say that billions would die without modern technology. Maintaining and improving our modern infrastructure is a far more important task than mitigating climate change. It would be great if we could do both, but they are not even close in terms of their relative importance.

Shoog · 29-09-2023 6:01pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121173469#Comment_121173469

Carbon taxes are ring fenced for carbon reducing measures. Motor tax is ring fenced for water. Those are the facts and I don't give a damn what you feel is right.

creedp · 29-09-2023 6:08pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121173833#Comment_121173833

Couldn't give a toss about you hard man opinions either. A lot of uncarbon friendly heat being generated there. Ring fenced taxes my backside..sounds like a Govt PR in other words 100% hot air

Shoog · 29-09-2023 6:14pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121173853#Comment_121173853

If your going to have an opinion on something please inform yourself of the facts first.

greenpilot · 29-09-2023 6:23pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121173319#Comment_121173319

My point is, let's see how over 1.7 Million people vote in the next election, shall we?

Shoog · 29-09-2023 6:27pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121173899#Comment_121173899

It won't matter what the Green party get in the next election - the legislation is in place whichever party is in government

Akrasia · 29-09-2023 7:55pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121173604#Comment_121173604

It's as infeasible as continuing the trillions of tonnes of coal oil and gas we've been burning globally to keep the lights on (and leaving us with trilions of tonnes of waste products in the form of slag and ash and water and air pollution)

Akrasia · 29-09-2023 7:56pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121173621#Comment_121173621

Everyone needs to do their part. We have obligations that we have agreed to

Akrasia · 29-09-2023 8:00pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121173698#Comment_121173698

The best way to prevent people from dying from deadly heatwaves is to stop global warming from making large regions of highly populated areas uninhabitable to humans.

machiavellianme · 29-09-2023 8:18pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121171941#Comment_121171941

What happened to the greens wanting algae for:

1. Bioplastics

2. Biofuel

3. Fertiliser

4. Water treatment

5. Waste recycling and breakdown

6. Spa treatments

7. Food additives

8. Vegan eggs

9. Battery stabilisers

10. Solving world peace

Here's a bountiful supply and all their doing is whinging.

JRant · 29-09-2023 8:22pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121173833#Comment_121173833

What do you think "ring fenced" means exactly? The government come out with these ludicrous statements all the time but in real terms it all goes into one pot. There was no talk of fuel duty being ring fenced for water when they were trying to set to set another quango to bleed the population dry.

creedp · 29-09-2023 8:26pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121173874#Comment_121173874

Sorry just no interest in swallowing Govt PR, somethimg this thread is full of. Govt could drastically cut its media team if decided to source its green propaganda material directly from here

JRant · 29-09-2023 8:27pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121174151#Comment_121174151

We have arbitrary targets set by eurocrats.

Shoog · 29-09-2023 8:28pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121174252#Comment_121174252

All those SEAI grants are financed through carbon taxes. Carbon taxes are revenue neutral by design.

JRant · 29-09-2023 8:31pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121174297#Comment_121174297

Carbon taxes are revenue neutral? They take money out of ordinary citizens pockets. By definition that's not revenue neutral.

prunudo · 29-09-2023 8:44pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121172751#Comment_121172751

I think there is also the mindset of not putting all their eggs in one basket. They know full well the frequency of power cuts during the winter. At least with having a stove or open fire they can keep warm when the lights go out.

I know personally, not for heating as need electricity for pump, but its great knowing I can still use the hob for kettle or boiling water for veg when the power goes.

Shoog · 29-09-2023 8:46pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121174317#Comment_121174317

Ordinary citizens get those grants. The warmer home grants mean that you can even get energy improvements free of charge if you are on benefits or are over 71.

So yes revenue neutral. If you refuse to improve your energy efficiency then yes your going to be losing out.

TedBundysDriver · 29-09-2023 8:54pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121174151#Comment_121174151

Count me out.

I'm just going to live and enjoy my life. You go ahead and do what you want

JRant · 29-09-2023 8:55pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121174393#Comment_121174393

So they aren't free, someone always has to foot the bill. It's not as if the government actually generate any revenue themselves, it's all taken from citizens and companies operating here.

Shoog · 29-09-2023 8:59pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121174439#Comment_121174439

Revenue neutral, what's so difficult to understand ?

Akrasia · 29-09-2023 9:36pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121174317#Comment_121174317

Ok, so you don't understand what revenue neutral means

That's nice to know

Akrasia · 29-09-2023 9:44pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121174383#Comment_121174383

I fully understand the desire to have an alternative source of heating for when there's a power cut. Loads of people have those portable gas heaters just for that reason, others use an open fireplace.

For most people in Ireland power cuts are infrequent, and when they happen, are little more than an inconvenience with almost no risk to health or life

but if you're elderly, living in an old house in a rural area, go ahead and burn the wood and turf you need to stay warm in winter. I have no issue with that.

People who choose to use these sources of fuel when they can easily afford to upgrade to more sustainable heating or insulate their houses, they're just being pigheaded IMO, and will end up costing themselves more financially in the long run

It is a much better use of scarce resources to insulate the home better, and have an efficient electrical, or gas central heating system.

Pa ElGrande · 29-09-2023 10:14pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121174457#Comment_121174457

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121174649#Comment_121174649

Total nonsense, an energy tax can never be "revenue neutral", have you been living under a rock for the last 2 years? The price of energy makes it's way into everything we do. Diesel is the very lifeblood of the economy, without it the shelves are bare and the just in time economy falls asunder. Anyone been keeping an eye on their grocery bill for the last few years?

Here is a simplified example, a product cost analysis might look something like this:

Unit production cost = €10 materials + €10 labour + €10 energy = €30 cost per unit.

Because I'm a greedy capitalist my unit sales price is twice unit cost, i.e. €60 a unit.

In LaLa land the deal with a "revenue neutral tax" is that the consumer is supposed to get the money back from the state. According to your theory, this means that a revenue-neutral tax won’t slow down the economy, since the taxes aren’t removed from circulation, instead they’re returned right back to the consumers.

Here’s the problem. Let’s run the new unit cost numbers to include the tax.

Unit production cost = €10 materials + €10 labour + €20 energy = €40 total cost

Remember me, the greedy capitalist, twice production cost is €80 a unit. €10 extra for me, €10 for the state. Did not need to invest to improve the product in any way and I am making more money, government will give you back your €10 - their handling fee. Except for the part, you Joe Soap the punter who bought the unit is short a tenner, and me the greedy capitalist made a tenner extra on the same unit. The revenue is neutral, and despite that, in the case of energy taxes the net effect is to slow down the economy and cause labour unrest through strikes and unemployment.

Why will the economy slow? If we have the same amount of goods at higher prices, demand must fall and trade must slow. It’s basic economics and no magic money theory games are going to change that.

Akrasia · 29-09-2023 10:51pm

The greedy capitalist wants to avoid the tax and also make more money, so they sell their diesel vans and buy electric vehicles that cost less to run and also avoid the tax

The selfish consumer chooses to buy the locally produced widget that is now competitive because the imported widget cost more to transport. The consumer also has more money in their pocket because the government chose to not increase tax elsewhere to balance out the added tax on fuel.

See. Both of us can come up with numbers in a hypothetical situation to prove any pont we like

randomname2005 · 29-09-2023 11:03pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121172529#Comment_121172529

I'm torn on this part. On one hand I agree that carbon tax should be there to discourage emissions, however, I also think we need to keep old things running as long as possible. Granted the emissions from a 10, 12, 14 etc year old ice will be high, but dumping a well running car and buying a new one seems like a waste. Need to tax new goods in the same way, estimate carbon tax needed in production and add it to the cost.

namloc1980 · 29-09-2023 11:07pm

Most energy upgrades found to be non compliant.

Not the first time that the standard of work being done on retrofitting has been found to be widely below par. People are paying a fortune for this poor standard of work.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-41237458.html

Pa ElGrande · 29-09-2023 11:14pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121175037#Comment_121175037

Hypothetical is exactly what "revenue neutral" assumptions are. Just like climate model results that have no semblance to real world, the economic modelling tells the story the activists want to hear. It ignores the real world of effects caused by a tax upon a tax, the effect of rent seekers, the costs of tax avoidance and evasion, the cost of bureaucratic administration and the hypocrites covering up when reality does not confirm to their model. It's an old argument, described previously as the socialist calculation problem where the socialists simply assumed away the issue of human nature and could not set the prices to reflect peoples needs and wants leading to widespread poverty and scarcity once their capital reserve had been consumed.