"Green" policies are destroying this country

Shoog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121389998#Comment_121389998

The irony.

m2_browning

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121389920#Comment_121389920

https://eandt.theiet.org/content/articles/2023/11/uk-to-pay-66-per-cent-more-for-offshore-wind-energy-after-failed-auction/

floating offshore is more than twice more expensive

the gov.ie document I payed wants 28% of this 37GW to be floating

we be lucky if we build 3.7GW at that price at these costs

m2_browning

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121389944#Comment_121389944

Yet again you are working off wildly outdated information

Here from horses mouth

https://www.gov.ie/en/press-release/4bd0b-minister-coveney-announces-plans-to-develop-a-national-industrial-strategy-for-offshore-wind/

“Ireland’s Offshore Energy Programme includes a target to deliver 5GW of OWE by 2030 and a further 2GW of Floating OWE to be in development by 2030. The total target for OWE rises to at least 37GW by 2050. “

yes that’s an Irish government website directly quoting the minister

Pa ElGrande

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121390029#Comment_121390029

80.4 million on 120 buses

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40894526.html

25 million on chargers

https://www.businesspost.ie/news/dublin-bus-to-install-400-charging-units-as-plan-to-electrify-fleet-gathers-speed/

Back of envelope: 80.4 / 120 = €670,000 per bus + €208,000 per bus for charging (which reduces with more buses) , paid off over 10 years + interest payments on debt. (lets say 5%) €43,000 per annum. + maintenance + drivers + depreciation + insurance + electricity cost + road tax + infrastructure (signage, telecoms) so €250,000 running cost per bus per annum over 10 years is possibly thereabouts, then you need to add profit margin.

Dublin bus does 70% of its business during weekday rush hour period in the morning and evening, rest of the day most of the buses are relatively empty, each bus run is ~90 minutes out and ~90 minutes in, over 18 hour day, probably getting 6 journeys out of a bus per day (if that). Max capacity 96 passengers.

StreetDeck Electroliner is not a regular electric bus, its maximum power from a 454kW zero-emission battery electric power train is the highest battery capacity for a UK Double Deck bus. It powers it to a leading range of up to 200 miles and a fast charge time of just 2.5 hours ensures longer journeys with fewer refueling breaks. Our commitment to greener transport is also strengthened with an optional 8-year battery warranty. So you can concentrate on growing your business without having to worry about the bus's performance. source

If you allow for maintenance and holidays, a bus is at least running 355 days per year, so each bus would need to be bringing in ~€700 per day on average just to cover costs, that's ~€120 per journey. Assume 50% occupancy (off peak hours + weekends), that would be an average fare of €2.50 + profit margin, should be looking at €3.50 - €4.00 per passenger journey. Bear in mind this all back of envelope.

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121389934#Comment_121389934

None of those knowledgeable engineers are on this thread that's for sure.

The government document lays out the plan, nothing crazy about it and the options discussed are all feasible.

JRant

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121390553#Comment_121390553

What's feasible about having no gas security and instead relying on an indigenous renewable gas supply?

Here's a hint, there is no indigenous renewable gas supply and I doubt there will be in the next 30 years. They are hitching their wagon on the green hydrogen myth that is not only technologically not achievable today but with the difficulty in storing (check out the boil off rate of hydrogen for a laugh) it just won't do what we need it to do. Plus it's energy/power density is nowhere near that required to power a modern society, as we stand here today.

m2_browning

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121390553#Comment_121390553

Where is this document?

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121390410#Comment_121390410

I expect the new bus corridors, the bus lane enforcement project etc is all the bigger plan to increase the numbers on buses. How long that will take to get those numbers onto the buses is the question.

But electric buses? honestly Im not so sure about that. Are they really better for the environment? isn't most of the buses now running on HVO?

deholleboom

Here is my summery of the few persistent green posters here, all on my growing ignore list:

1. Not answering direct questions, 2: deflecting by highlighting something else either not relevant or a propaganda piece, 3: constant on the attack with frequent posts seeking warrior status (which is usually not granted), 4: outright lying, presenting mis-and disinformation, 5: hammering on about a climate consensus, 6: energy and science naivitee, 6: heavily biased towards a desired outcome, 7: proposing unreasonable certainty and 8: attacking those who are in doubt about either the science behind it or policy directions, 9: attempt character assassination (like 'supported by the oil industry', even if they're not), 10: support top down fascist non democratic but technocratic compliance mechanisms, 11: serve as useful idiots (an army of climate warriors) by those who actually know what they are doing, and accusing those who point out the facts through highlighting statements as 'conspiracy theorists' (as in climate gate etc).

I no doubt have left out others but this is what i have experienced so far.

There is a good reason for the Ignore button. There is no point in a discussion if the unwritten rules of the game are not stated, like making a logical argument. Virtue signalling does not count.

In this case ignorance really IS bliss 😊*

*This as a pun and reference to the book 1984 by George Orwell (of course).

Pa ElGrande

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121390637#Comment_121390637

If you look at the carrot and stick approach adopted in London (ULEZ), it is hitting people on low incomes who cannot afford the costs of compliance especially hard. To the extent it's drawing people who have never before protested to become active in resistance and non compliance. I have been a regular user of Dublin bus over the years and based on my observations most passengers are female and low income (e.g. retail workers, cleaners, students), if you want to talk about enforcement that means you are looking for more men to use the service, likely most men work in roles that require the use of vehicles and roles that do not suit fixed bus routes. Why will more men use the bus?

There are other problems seen recently in the Netherlands, companies with 100+ employees must now report carbon footprints of their employees from Jan 1 next year. This will be present in Ireland by 2025.

5. Disrupted transition to net zero

The transition to a green economy has been disrupted due to the ongoing energy and cost of living crises.

Businesses and consumers are refocusing on costs, and there is less appetite to spend more on greener alternatives. However, policy measures to encourage climate-friendly activities and behaviours, such as carbon taxes, become more controversial if they are seen to feed further price increases.

New EU regulations such as the Corporate Sustainability Reporting Directive (CSRD) will emphasise transparent corporate reporting and set a higher standard on environmental, social and governance (ESG) practices.

Government policy in 2023 will have to carefully balance the need for decisive action on climate action and the mounting costs pressures on households. source

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121390799#Comment_121390799

I use the trains and Luas, to me its a mix of people and not any specific groups.

To me the buses at the moment are restricted because the bus lanes are a disaster, they are just used as another lane for traffic so the bus corridors is a good project in my opinion but will crash & burn unless they can enforce the bus lanes.

At the moment, most people will think they will be quicker in a car than using a bus. They might be right or wrong but that is the perception and has been for 20+ years in Dublin anyway. That doesn't matter what type of fuel you use in the bus. If they implement the bus corridors, enforce the bus lnes then I would expect more people wil use, especially when you see the price of cars, like its nearly 100k for a 7 seater electric kia. A Kia :-)

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121390614#Comment_121390614

Ireland has a direct gas link to the UK and then into Europe.

m2_browning

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121390867#Comment_121390867

Congrats you just further underlined his point for him

machiavellianme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121390553#Comment_121390553

They're probably all on your Facebook group.

There's at least 2 engineers that I'm aware of on here (probably more), one who works for a system operator and one who works for DECC. They explain to the likes of yourself how things really work, rather than ideals and fantasies. Just because you don't agree with some figures, doesn't mean that they are wrong.

For a newly registered account, you might do well to actually read some of the different sides of the argument (there are some good points from most contributors, amongst the pages of rubbish) and inform yourself rather than continue to spout inaccurate information you've seen on a curated Facebook group.

Here's a starting point for you: learn the difference between grid scale solar and micro solar on your roof. You need to understand the basic dynamics of the transmission system, the distribution system, congestion, curtailment, short circuit levels, grid protection, outage management, forecasting, margins, reserves, scheduling, self vs central dispatch, the Distribution, Grid, Network and Capacity Codes. I appreciate there's a lot in it but UCD have just kicked off an excellent microcredentials course on the subject. Then you can start on market topics, where physics meets economics for an even more intricate world of fun.

roosterman71

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121390849#Comment_121390849

What Kia is nearly 100k? That can't be possible

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121390929#Comment_121390929

Still obsessed about a facebook group 😂 again I only referenced the facebook group because of the comment you made using names. You have made loads of assumptions since then with no information.

Then you tell someone they "might do well to actually read some of the different sides". I think you should take some of your own advice.

Not sure why these rambling posts ahve to do with the topic of the thread. Im sure, new poster and all, boards adheres to the "discuss the post and not the poster"

m2_browning

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121391019#Comment_121391019

He just invents **** as called out by multiple posters

i mean it’s something than can be checked in seconds

https://www.donedeal.ie/cars/Kia?sort=pricedesc&price_from=65000

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121391019#Comment_121391019

EV9 in 7 seater, 85,500 before additional items like delivery etc.

I do see they have an updated version at a snip of 75500 which wasn't on the website a few weks back. Still that high end BMW money for a Kia

https://www.kia.com/ie/new-cars/ev9/discover/

creedp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121391019#Comment_121391019

The EV9 basic model starts at €77.7k with higher spec model starting at €85k. With a list of options for the discerning person to select from it would be easy enough to pump that price up to within a whisker of €100k

roosterman71

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121391116#Comment_121391116

Jaysus. And pig ugly too (though that's subjective)

7 seater diesel Sorento is a notch over 61k

https://www.kia.com/ie/new-cars/sorento/discover/

That's a lot of diesel ya'd buy to go down the EV route for a 7 seater from the same manufacturer. EVs don't make sense at that price difference

prunudo

The whole thing is going to go pop. The manufacturers and marketing people are creating a narrative that 100k for a family car is normal. Even regular ev saloons are pushing 60k. Whole thing is madness.

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121391113#Comment_121391113

You check a second hand car website which is the first issue you have

Then the second issue is the 4th car down.

https://www.donedeal.ie/cars-for-sale/kia-ev9-gt-line-awd-384p-s/35588086

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121391184#Comment_121391184

The PHEV Sorento is 60k+delivery etc, cheaper to the diesel version. Plus I think it gives an electric range of 50km before the hybrid mode kicks in. That's a hell of a lot of petrol to buy before it would be worthwhile.

In terms of pig ugly, I agree. Almost as bad as the earlier electric cars from Kia which didn't sell at all

This is the "updated version"

https://www.kia.com/uk/new-cars/soul-ev/

m2_browning

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121391234#Comment_121391234

They sell new cars there

88 is not 100k

just like 100 billion would not build and run 37 GW of offshore wind for 25 years especially as a third of that is to be the floaty kind double the cost of nuclear

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121391231#Comment_121391231

Its not going to go pop. The model of ownership is certainly going to change though. Private leasing will become the norm. And I do mean private leasing, not PCP or HP as we know them.

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121391257#Comment_121391257

Read the post. I said nearly 100k.

prunudo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121391261#Comment_121391261

Yeah, something will give. Like you say, a user/owner model change probably more likely. Just my Monday morning negativity coming out!

roosterman71

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121391252#Comment_121391252

I think Fiat or maybe Nissan had boxy type cars out 20/30 years ago. They were rough on the eye too!

I seen the hybrid car alright. 50km isn't too bad. We've a hybrid here and it's less efficient than my own 2.2l diesel. I think they are a cod of a job and for that reason, excluded it from my thinking. I gloss over anything that says hybrid

machiavellianme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121391087#Comment_121391087

I made a comment using typical Irish names to make a point. It could have been Mohammad and Maura and my point would have still stood. You seem to think in black and white and unless the exact criteria is explicitly stated, the other 99% of the argument is invalid. That's if you even bother to read the argument, which is debatable based on your responses. All based on a single Facebook group that only tolerates like minded members. There are likely a great deal of other groups with opposing views and places like here suggest that not everything you read in a single group in a single site is necessarily reflective of society at large.

Unlike some on here, I read the actual posts and even read the content in most links (can barely keep up with some of the spammers though, especially when many of the documents are hundreds of pages long and likely not even read by the poster) before I derive my conclusions. Thankfully, it is often work related so I'm not wasting too much time. To be honest, I don't care much about either extreme and am more practically minded. To good thing is that I'm actively involved in the industry, especially in setting and delivering on some aspects of the policy, so I can make a small difference. That is assuming that it's not set from higher up and we're instructed to implement it without any practical or techno-economic input. I'd rather see a considered way forward that meets global needs at the least cost, not ridiculous aspirations to either run an entirely nuclear grid or an entirely wind/solar/storage based one. There's room for something sensible and cost effective in the middle.

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121391261#Comment_121391261

100% correct, PCP was the shift towards that, now increase the price of cars so they are outside the buying ability of most people. Then stick you on a monhtly fee for the rest of your life to have a car. Plus the bigger companies run their own banks so keep all the profits