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"Green" policies are destroying this country

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  • Registered Users Posts: 323 ✭✭duck.duck.go


    Oh really? Care to show some calculations to show otherwise how much it will cost to build and run 37GW of offshore wind where 28% of it is the even more expensive floaty kind that costs double HinkleyC

    while your at it provide references and do the maths for ammonia piss taking tech too



  • Registered Users Posts: 22,419 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    It doesn't matter how much it costs to build and run it if it's being built and run by private companies. It only matters how much the electricity will cost to consumers

    And your 200 billion every 24 years is as ridiculous as saying ' it costs a billion to build a road, the toll booth at the end of the road needs to be replaced after 20 years, therefore the cost of replacing the toll booth is another billion euros.

    That's the level of calculations you're spewing out here, so forgive me if I don't waste my Saturday morning gathering financial projections that you won't read or be capable of interpreting anyway



  • Registered Users Posts: 323 ✭✭duck.duck.go


    Yet when it comes to nuclear the argument thrown is the cost

    And yes it does matter because

    1. irish consumers would be paying for this ever more expensive energy
    2. when these limited companies fold under their unsustainable costs and the directors sail away on their yachts to warmer shores it’s the Irish taxpayer who would pickup the tab

    The fact that you consistently avoid in showing any costings is an illustration as to why all this green nonsense is a a scam that is being perpetrated and pushed on Irish people by vested interests who look at us like plump rich cows that can be scammed and milked



  • Registered Users Posts: 323 ✭✭duck.duck.go


    These offshore wind turbines are out in rough salty seas you be lucky if they last 25 years in first place unlike a road in your silly analogy

    nuclear plants on other hand have lifespans of 60+ years and are proper infrastructure that doesn’t need to be build in harshest environments imaginable



  • Registered Users Posts: 22,419 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    One of the arguments is the cost. The other is the fact that in Ireland there would be so many objections and challenges that the things would never get built

    Even if they were free, they're no good to anyone if it takes 30 years to build them

    It's taken 2 3 decades to not even finish a children's hospital that people actually want to live near

    https://www.irishtimes.com/health/2023/06/20/national-childrens-hospital-timeline/



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  • Registered Users Posts: 22,419 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    The turbines themselves are only a small part of the cost. The cables, transformers, access roads substations etc will all last far longer and so the cost of upgrading the turbines is not the same as the cost of installing them



  • Registered Users Posts: 323 ✭✭duck.duck.go


    How much for those too? Ontop of the 200 billion every two dozen years and unknown amount for ammonia



  • Registered Users Posts: 22,419 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    Which one of the banned users are you a re-reg of? Your argument style is very familiar



  • Registered Users Posts: 323 ✭✭duck.duck.go


    Koreans built in UAE 4 reactors in exactly 10 years for exactly 22.5 billion euro

    they are doing same now in Poland

    in meantime next door in UK the cost of new offshore wind projects last month went to double the cost of HinkleyC which itself was expensive due to being a new reactor design

    you keep shifting the goalposts btw but I haven’t forgotten that you keep avoiding in dealing in actual real facts and figures because you simply can’t



  • Registered Users Posts: 323 ✭✭duck.duck.go


    Re; children’s hospital

    You are arguing against yourself now, if we can’t built a hospital then how will we:

    1. build 37GW of offshore wind in the harsh and salty Atlantic Ocean in a country (unlike UK next door) that has no offshore construction or maintenance industry
    2. Build hydrogen and ammonia production storage and consumption for the above 37 GW in a country that has little to no chemical industry
    3. Build grids and power lines everywhere in in a country where everyone objects against everything


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  • Registered Users Posts: 7,380 ✭✭✭prunudo


    Thing is, you want us to believe that there won't be huge cost every 20 years. But what do you mean by upgrading the turbine? Are you saying the foundations, underwater sub-structure, tower etc won't need replacing, or only the nacelle and blades or even only the generator. What exactly does upgrading a turbine involve and what is the lifespan of the various parts.

    Like everything, the devil is in the detail and too often on this thread, legitimate concerns or questions get glossed over



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,549 ✭✭✭roosterman71


    What? Teslas aren't some fanciful tech. They are EVs and drive the same as many other EVs. I'd suspect, but maybe wrong, many of those rental ones are "restricted" somehow. Maybe not. Any EV could be forgotten they are turned on and bang into something. Teslas aren't special in that way



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,309 ✭✭✭alias no.9


    There isn't but people who are agitating to get constitutional protections on water might be better focused on electricity supply.

    As more renewables come on stream, if the surplus is stolen by crazy schemes like ammonia as a storage solution, the consumer never see the benefit. Instead, electricity will remain expensive even when there's a surplus with a power hungry and inefficient ammonia production sucking up the surplus and when it's time to convert the ammonia back into electricity, the electricity will be priced as if it were produced by gas, screwing the consumer again.

    We've seen plenty of evidence of renewables being priced at gas rates over the last few years despite no change in their cost base.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,723 ✭✭✭creedp


    Whats the green policy on long haul tourism? Last time I checked Govt policy is to encourage people to travel from all corners of the globe to this little country of ours while at the same time berating its own residents for driving their cars, not staycationing, using fossil fuels to heat their homes, etc, etc. It seems hypocrisy is fine when it supports the green rhetoric



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,105 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    I`ll give you this much, you have a very vivid imagination. The problem is it that it blocks out reality and leaves you imagining what you want documents to say rather than what they actually say.

    You have been shown multiple times that the Sinn Fein document does not say what you imagine it to say based on your half a sentence, and been show another document from the same source where they, unlike the Green Party, are oppposed to blackmail by taxation to push a green ideology.

    The document you have been waving around on energy security has just two tangible takeaways. That Eamon Ryan after years of burying his head in the sand on gas storage and LNG finally had to accept that he got both wrong. But even at that he had to take a leaf from Eamon de Valera`s "dancing at the crossroads" and lease a LNG terminal at sea to protect our purity. A total waste of taxpayers money. But then perhaps he believes that having the ship anchored in salt water will purify LNG or he intends sprinkling it with that green magic dust you believe works for burning wood and methane.

    Why do you keep insisting that the Irish Green Party has any other plan than the offshore/hydrogen one, and why to you keep avoiding it ?

    It`s not as if you haven`t been given the link often enough or you could possibly have missed it being discussed here. Even Eamon Ryan off the top of his head threw in the demonstrably low figure of it costing €100 Billion. A plan that from Eirgrid`s projections would still only cover half of our requirement between now and 2050.



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,105 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    If you believe these private companies are charitable organisations you really need to have a rethink.

    Consummers will pay for all the offshore Capex, plus the OPEX, plus a profit margin for these private companies on top. They will also pay double for the electricity to cover the 50% generation going to produce hydrogen, plus all the associated costs of hydrogen production, desalinisation, storage, distribution etc. on top.

    In business there are no free lunches.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,297 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    Long post. Nothing new in it just more rambling.

    The Sinn Fein document clearly states they will increase the move to renewable. Something you hadn't a clue about till I pointed it out. You are rambling on since then about I don't know what.

    The department document is a government plan. Unless you work for the government and are releasing a different document you are just talking nonsense.

    I have never mentioned anything about offshore hydrogen 😂 I have just said the document says gas will be used for the grid.

    It's a government document, not the Irish Green Party. You seem to be confused. You would think the fact it is on a government website would be a clue but that doesn't seem to have registered. If It was a Green Party document it would be released on their website. Something to remember in future maybe.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,380 ✭✭✭WishUWereHere


    And remember the same clown was going to take a 7 hour flight to cast a vote and then another 7 back to carry on his vitriol there. He owes the SD’s big time there



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,380 ✭✭✭WishUWereHere




  • Registered Users Posts: 562 ✭✭✭InAtFullBack


    Not a hope if I were an EV owner to participate in V2G. Your car's battery would be obliterated in no time.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 562 ✭✭✭InAtFullBack


    30c per Kwh before profits, VAT and probably an incoming energy tax to replace the loss of revenue coming from fossil fuel taxes. That probably comes in at 50c to 60c per KWh to the householder and even more for the business user.

    This is not reasonable.



  • Registered Users Posts: 323 ✭✭duck.duck.go


    He didn’t offer references for where he pulled the figures out of

    It costs 12MWh to make a ton of ammonia assuming you have equipment of unknown cost and store it in tanks of unknown cost

    it will then release less than half of that at 5.1MWh when burned with equipment of unknown costs

    laws of thermodynamics are a bitch

    but yeh private companies won’t do this cheaply and without taking a nice profit for us green guilt tripped Irish

    and of course what happens if ammonia is produced in other countries from gas which is a more efficient process?

    or if this industrial facility has an accident as ammonia is highly toxic



  • Registered Users Posts: 562 ✭✭✭InAtFullBack


    or if this industrial facility has an accident as ammonia is highly toxic

    Indeed - quite a pop!

    (23) RAW VIDEO: Beirut blast caught on camera - YouTube



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,731 ✭✭✭ginger22


    Big Read: Ill wind of inflation is blowing through the offshore energy sector

    With major projects being scrapped and others becoming unviable, the offshore wind energy sector is at crisis point

     

    Between 2010 and 2021, offshore wind development costs plunged 60 per cent but now a surge in financing costs has seen developers back out of contracts

     Mads Nipper is long enough working in the energy sector to know the signs when storm clouds are gathering on the horizon.

    Unfortunately for the chief executive of Orsted, the Danish offshore renewable energy giant, the current storm building won’t help generate cheap, clean wind energy.

    Instead, Nipper is facing a desperate fight to hold on to his job as Orsted grapples with a mounting crisis over the viability of its project pipeline. Last month, the energy company, which is majority-owned by the Danish state, was forced to book a €3.8 billion impairment charge after it abandoned two offshore wind farms in the US due to soaring costs.

    The company, along with a raft of other energy giants, had begged the state of New York to increase subsidies for its Ocean Wind 1 and 2 projects but the proposal was turned down. Orsted said it was left with “no choice” but to stop work.

    Related Reads

    It takes too long to get planning decisions for green projects

    ESB and SSE given green light to progress offshore wind projects

    Offshore deals boost Ireland’s ranking on renewable energy investment index

    The decision is the clearest sign to date that the offshore wind industry is at a turning point. Governments all over the world are desperately hoping wind energy can decarbonise their fossil fuel dependent systems, but the sector is flagging.

    And as the world’s largest developer of these projects, Orsted is at the very centre of the crisis driven by higher interest rates pushing up the cost of capital, double-digit cost inflation and lengthy delays in the planning system.



    The chief executive of Orsted Mads Nipper

    Since taking over as chief executive in January 2021, Nipper has watched as shares in Orsted have plummeted by almost 80 per cent, which has resulted in an eye-watering €56 billion in shareholder equity being destroyed to leave the company with a current valuation of just over €17 billion.

    In a bid to convince investors that a plan is in place, Nipper dismissed two of his most senior executives in recent weeks, but whether it’s enough to placate investors remains to be seen.

    The crisis playing out at Orsted is symptomatic of some major stresses that have appeared in the global offshore wind industry over the last year, which up to recently had seen a dramatic drop in costs year after year.

    Between 2010 and 2021, offshore wind development costs plunged 60 per cent fuelled by ultra low interest rates and significant advances in turbine technology. But now a surge in financing costs due to rising interest rates, along with higher prices for key materials used to build turbines, has seen a notable uptick in developers backing out of contracts or subsidy deals for offshore wind projects, mainly in the US and Britain. But pressure is mounting in other markets too.

    Target

    In Ireland, the government has set a target for 5,000 megawatts (MW) of offshore wind capacity to be installed by 2030.

    So Eamon Ryan, the climate minister, and the rest of the government should be worried about the problems developers are running into in other countries.

    “Offshore wind energy is going to struggle to hit its 2030 targets,” Kevin O’Donovan, managing director of the Irish arm of Statkraft, the Norwegian state-owned energy company, told the Business Post.

    “The economics of offshore wind are certainly challenging right now. The sole focus of governments to date has been around securing the best price for the consumer in these auctions. But it can’t be just about that anymore. It has to be about projects that can deliver.”



    Kevin O’Donovan: ‘The sole focus of governments to date has been around securing the best price for the consumer in these auctions’. Picture: John Allen

    O’Donovan admitted that in the past “the offshore wind industry and developers probably over-committed to policymakers in terms of what they could deliver. It became a race to the bottom in a way. But everyone can now see that won’t work anymore.”

    Earlier this year, four developers, including Statkraft, were successful in securing state-backed contracts in Ireland’s first-ever offshore renewable energy subsidy auction, known as O-RESS 1.

    The four projects have committed to deliver over 3,000 MW of offshore wind capacity at an average price of €86 per megawatt-hour (MWhr), which was far lower than industry expectations at the time.

    While the government initially lauded the auction price as a success, there is now mounting concern about the economic viability of this first phase. It also means any bids into the government’s second O-RESS auction due to take place next year will likely be significantly higher.

    Peter Lefroy, head of offshore development in Ireland for RWE Renewables, the German energy giant, said his company was really pleased to win a contract in O-RESS 1 for its 834 MW capacity Dublin Array project off the coast of Dublin and Wicklow.

    With the project expected to cost up to €2 billion to develop, Lefroy said inflation is a real concern in the supply chain right now.

    “We’ve seen the cost of certain components increase in the order of 30 to 40 per cent. So really very significant inflation. The O-RESS 1 contracts do have indexation built into them meaning prices are linked to general inflation, so that will soften the blow. But it certainly won’t cover all of the cost inflation by any means,” he said.



    “Right now, we think the inflation is manageable. We think the price we agreed is a price that is deliverable. In saying that, there’s very little fat built into those O-RESS 1 prices. The nature of the competition meant we had to work very hard to strip out costs. I don’t think any developer would say they’re in a comfortable position. These are big projects and a shift in costs by one or two percentage points can make a big difference in terms of what your margin looks like.”

    Striking

    What’s striking about the viability challenges mounting in the offshore wind industry is that no company is immune. All of the biggest energy companies in the world are encountering similar problems where projects that looked attractive 18 months ago are suddenly uncertain.

    In Britain, which has been a world leader in offshore wind development, the most recent state support auction failed to attract a single bid from developers after the government set a price cap which equated to around £65 per MWhr (€75 per MWhr). Developers had repeatedly warned the British government in the lead-up to the auction that the price cap was far too low to offset rising costs.



    Anja-Isabel Dotzenrath: ‘The way the policy works, the supply chain, the permitting, is not catching up with the growth of this sector’

    Anja-Isabel Dotzenrath, executive vice-president for gas and low-carbon energy at BP, the British energy giant that has slowly begun to invest in renewables, recently described the offshore wind industry as “fundamentally broken”.

    She blamed government-run auction processes for failing to keep up with changing market dynamics such as inflation, while also hitting out at the delays in the planning system for large-scale renewable energy projects.

    “The way the policy works, the supply chain, the permitting, is not catching up with the growth of this sector,” Dotzenrath told an energy conference in London last month.

    “There’s a fundamental reset needed,” she said.

    Philip Cole, director of industrial affairs at Wind Europe, a trade association representing over 500 companies, said the supply chain is at breaking point with the constant drive for lower prices at a time when inflation is driving up raw material costs.

    “I think the focus on pricing has got us to the point where, when you add in inflation and other issues, we're now starting to see some developers starting to say they’re not sure they can build this wind farm now,” he said.

    To understand the viability challenges in offshore wind right now, a quick scan of the financial performance of some of the main players is quite revealing.

    Siemens Energy, the German clean energy company, reported a net loss of €4.6 billion last month, primarily due to its struggling wind business, and was forced to accept a €15 billion government-backed bailout,

    General Electric’s renewable energy division, a major manufacturer of turbines, is on course to report a loss of close to €1.5 billion for this year, while Vestas, the Danish turbine manufacturer, is hopeful of merely breaking even this year after posting a €1.7 billion loss in 2022.

    Inflation

    The recent inflation in supply chain and turbine costs is not the only challenge facing the offshore wind industry right now. Rising interest rates are also having a very significant impact in two ways. Firstly, higher rates drive up the cost of capital for developers, which again acts as a headwind against project viability.

    Secondly, and perhaps more significantly, the higher rate environment has seen investor capital move away from high-risk renewable energy projects towards safe-haven investments such as government bonds.

    Russell Smyth, head of KPMG Ireland’s sustainable futures team and an expert on renewable energy project finance, said the offshore wind industry is now facing significant liquidity challenges on top of everything else.

    “Without question, the offshore wind industry is in a pretty depressed place right now. Until 18 months ago, there was a wall of capital looking to invest in the sector. In fact, there was more capital than there were projects. But what we’re seeing now is there’s more projects than there is capital,” he said.

    He added that the biggest challenge for Ireland is that it’s competing for funds with 100 other countries that are all seeking to mobilise renewable energy capacity at the same time.

    “It’s a bad time to see a liquidity shrinkage. The challenge for Ireland is that it needs to position itself and demonstrate to global investors why it should be a recipient of international capital as opposed to everywhere else,” Smyth said.

    “The key piece is consistency of policy and deliverability. The O-RESS 1 auction has generally been well-received in the market. The challenge is those four projects still do not have planning consent. So the question becomes how quickly can the state mobilise the functions needed to move these projects on from where they are today to the point where they’re making a final investment decision and raising capital?”




  • Registered Users Posts: 323 ✭✭duck.duck.go


    Them troubles, It will blow over /s

    🤣



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,105 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    I have already shown you a number of times that your Sinn Fein idea is nothing more than your imagination running wild.

    This other document you keep waving about is from Ryan`s department and presented by Ryan. As a poster said earlier, it`s Ryan`s pig from Ryan`s farm.

    Indeed you have not mentioned hydrogen. In fact you have been jumping through hoops attempting to deflect from anything to do with hydrogen.

    You talk a lot about energy plans but refuse to even acknowledge that at present there is only one electricity generation plan for zero carbon electricity generation. The offshore wind/hydrogen plan that Ryan just recently of the top of his head said would cost €100 Billion.

    For someone so interested in energy plans I find in highly unlikely you are unaware of it due it it being discussed here, Ryan`s reference to it and poster here even providing you with links detailing it, so why all this jumping through hoops and the attempts at distraction any time it is mentioned to you. ?

    Post edited by charlie14 on


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,297 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    The problem with electric cars was the price was inflated, the manufacturers made a killing and now they are coming down to what they should be but people who paid the crazy prices are burned



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,380 ✭✭✭WishUWereHere




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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,297 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    Cars go on fire all the time.

    Doesn't mention anything about an electric car?



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