Can someone make me a bionic arm?

Finnrocco

I lost use of arm in accident 7 years ago.

Finally, after a long time agonising, I am moving towards amputation and fitting of a bionic arm, to be carried out in Vienna.

Prior to that I would like to practice on an arm if I could.

I visited the hospital in Vienna in 2019, they connected me to an arm and I could close the hand but not open it, as the signal from the opening muscle was quite weak.

The plan is to move a muscle from my leg to my arm to do that job. However, if I was able to practice I might theoretically be able to strengthen the signal I have already and hopefully / potentially avoid surgery and massive cost associated with it.

There are instructables etc available on line.

Now, if I had the use of two hands I could do this but unfortunately for me everything takes much longer / is more difficult with one hand, I don't have the space, time etc - also I'm sure plenty of people here are experienced, have the tools, setup etc.

I'm thinking of a basic 3d printed arm, with two sensors - one to close the hand the other to open it.

I have a video of myself using the arm when I visited Vienna which I can show you.

I will of course pay for your time & materials.

This is serious, I need to get this done.

Please don't mess me around, I was involved with two different people already but nothing came of it, and I'm running out of time.

Dublin based but can travel within reason.

Can anyone help? Even point me to right group for this type of thing.

CreadanLady

Sorry to hear of your struggle but is good you are getting it sorted soon.

However, I think you very seriously underestimate the significance of the task you are asking. This is not something that could be reasonably done by someone as a nixer over a few weekends. And the cost of custom making something like this would be quite significant. This stuff costs major money because of all the R&D and certification that goes along with it. There is also the issue of liability for whoever makes it for you. If, for whatever reason, you ended up getting hurt somehow through the use of whatever they make you, whatever engineer did it would be liable unless they had the item certified and had all the insurances etc.

Basically, you would be asking someone to put their professional reputation at stake for the sake of a nixer. Medical devices and prosthetics are not a nixer type activity.

Plus, anyone who works in that industry is probably very well paid. They don't need to do side nixers on showstring budgets.

You are in the care of your medical team. Follow their advice.

Finnrocco

You misunderstand what I'm asking for, my fault for not explaining better.

I do not want a finished product that is as good as the one that I am potentially getting fitted.

I'm just looking for a training device that is arm shaped, has two sensors to attach to muscles close to the elbow, and can open and close. Doesn't even have to be an arm, just a hand would be fine.

My medical team said it would be good if I could get a training device - as mentioned to strengthen the muscles there in advance of three operations over the next year or so.

I guess I picked the wrong forum - its probably more for electronics / hobbyists. As I mentioned there are instructables etc on line - while I work in IT and understand technology. I cannot complete such a project for reasons outlined previously.

Thanks for the input.

Finnrocco

I realise the headline was a bit sensational so again my fault.

28064212

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117963070#Comment_117963070

Your medical team recommended a training device, but didn't give you any advice on where to get one? Surely your first port of call is to them?

Finnrocco

They did not recommend one, one of the doctors had me hooked up to a sensor on a pc which showed muscle activity, and then connected me to an arm.

She said it would be useful if you could get something similar, it would help you, just said that its possible to get them from the internet.

And I suppose they are not my medical team as such, I went abroad, got an assessment and left it at that.

It was in Vienna so maybe misunderstanding on my part.

I really just thought it would be easy for someone to print something off on a 3D printer, put in a couple of electrodes / sensors to open and close and that would be it.

There are plans on line, but as I said I'm not geared up for it, and its easier to pay someone who has the capabilities than going on a steep learning curve myself.

Maybe its not that easy. Ans I suppose I'm in the wrong forum but cannot locate an electronics type one.

Ill google it and see if I can get someone to make one.

So apologies for wasting people's time.

Ryath

Would just a sensor and light be a start to train the muscle?

From a quick google

https://shop.pimoroni.com/products/myoware-muscle-sensor

https://shop.pimoroni.com/products/myoware-led-shield

mickdw

I don't think you need an arm for a start point.

As said above, surely, a sensor similar to the official one in terms of sensitivity would be needed and then just something simple to confirm activation.

The suggestion of a light above might not be ideal in terms of automatic brain training re looking at something that you want to control but I'd imagine sensor connected to a simple scissor type device would be ideal. The device wouldn't need to be strong enough to lift or grip anything, just some basic plastic hinged object to help muscle control while also brain training the open and close.

CreadanLady

It doesn't matter if it is just a basic training device. You would be asking someone to put their career on the line by doing a nixer like this, even if it is just a cobbled together sensor and some basic electronics. You are missing the point that, nomatter how simple a device, it is still a medical device and whoever makes it and gives it to you is liable for it and any harm it might potentially cause inadvertently.

If I was a medical device engineer or technician, I wouldn't touch this sort of nixer type work with a barge pole. It would end your career if it got out that you were even dabbling on the side, not to mind any potential case taken against you. And as I said, anyone competent in this field is already making big bucks money - they don't need to take on mickey mouse nixers at the weekend.

Why do you even need a device to train the muscle? Can you not just excercise and contract the muscles on their own? The sensor is just sensor, it won't make anything stronger or cause the signal to strenthen. A sensor is just a passive device detecting a signal, much like a microphone or camera passively detects sound and light.

you need to talk to your doctors about this and ask them for advice.

Finnrocco

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117963807#Comment_117963807

These are the type of things that could be useful alright. Someone was making me similar but it never worked / got finished.

I guess Ill start here and see where I go after that.

I was hoping to get a 3rd arm to do rudimentary things like picking up light objects, holding a plug while I rewire it etc etc - again it would not have to be a space age, titanium carbon fibre terminator type arm, just a 3d printed plastic one.

Sure look, thanks for all the input, I'll keep going.

And if I do get anything, I'll post it ...

I'll be back ....

If there are resources online, could you send the files to a 3D printing place and they would print it for you? That would get you part of the way there.

Finnrocco

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117964152#Comment_117964152

Jesus, you are going way too deep into this. I don't need a lecture, I need a bit of help.

I hereby absolve whoever I deal with of any malpractice, malfeasance whatever as a result of making me a device.

I'm asking someone to make something, not put their career on the line, were not building a bridge here.

As I said its probably the wrong forum.

Transition year students could probably do this.

Why do I need this? Because I have a very weak signal in the muscle that opens the hand and a strong signal in the muscle that closes it.

I had a catastrophic injury and had some nerve transfers which have allowed these muscles to work slightly.

I'm facing an operation to move a muscle from my leg to replace the opening muscle, and if I could spend a few months training with an opening and closing type device I could hopefully get that muscle working and bypass the need for surgery - its a big operation, it costs a lot and I have to spend a month in Vienna. If I'm connected to something with a gauge / measurement I would be able to see progress.

Look thanks for all the suggestions, I'll look elsewhere.

Finnrocco

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117964231#Comment_117964231

Yeh I m gonna do that, there's lads in India, China etc who could do this.

I just thought I'd ask locally first.

Forgive my angst, I'm basically at the end of my tether living life with one hand and carrying around a useless uncomfortable hunk of flesh and bone.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117964273#Comment_117964273

Nothing to apologise for! There's a 3D printing forum on here. Hopefully, an Irish 3D printing place would print it for you.

CreadanLady

I understand your frustration, but I think you massively underestimate the significance of the task you are asking someone to do as a nixer.

Transition year students? Seriously?

I understand the type of device you are seeking and why you are seeking it, but you are misguided in seeking medical advice/services it from randomers on an internet forum.

You really need to discuss this matter with your doctors or whoever is managing your care for the upcoming procedures. It is they who should be advising you on this, not you going off behind their backs seeking back-street DIY medical devices from randomers on an internet forum. And to be honest, you should have the bit of cop on to realise that.

And for what it's worth, you need to cool the jets a bit. There are people far worse off. There are people who would kill to have one working arm. So I am sorry for the pain you have endured, but you need to count your blessings in this life, not your burdens.

@Finnrocco

@Finnrocco

The hackerspace, Tog, in Dublin should have everything you need. I know some of the guys involved in it and am checking with them if they could print it for you. I'll post back when I hear from them.

I was searching for a link I read a while back about another hackerspace who were making prosthetic arms for kids but found this: https://www.generationunlimited.org/stories/teenagers-develop-3d-printed-bionic-arm-30-times-cheaper-existing-prosthetics

Is this the site you got the assembly instructions from: https://ebionics.org/faq/ ?

I'll let you know when I hear back.

I understand the type of device you are seeking and why you are seeking it, but you are misguided in seeking medical advice/services it from randomers on an internet forum.

He didn't ask for any medical advice. He just needs someone to 3d print it, and possibly a small bit of soldering. I happily volunteer to do the latter. I just don't currently have access to a 3D printer.

Finnrocco

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117964344#Comment_117964344

Ok apologies for me massively underestimating this job.

Back street medical devices? Its a thing that sits external of my body, strapped to my working arm, and opening and closing. A piece of plastic with a few wires in it, hinge maybe, not a full blown 50,000 dollar device. Maybe my choice of title was wrong.

I'm not going behind their backs, they said if you can manage to get a training device let us know how its going

Cool my jets? you don't get to tell me how to feel. I'm allowed feel the way I feel.

People far worse off? I absolutely totally understand that, and no matter how bad things are its always worse for someone else. There's also people far better off than me. And there's nothing wrong with wanting to be better. Also this is the only thing wrong in my life but it is still a burden.

It doesn't achieve much I accept that but that's they way I feel, sometimes up, sometimes down. I just didn't expect a lecture / put down here .. I need a bit of help, yeh I can help, no I can't help - that's it, is that not what the internet is good for - ideas, advice etc?

Look, were obviously not going to agree on this, we both seem to have different ideas on my situation and my needs.

So I guess mods close this thread and I'll move on.

Finnrocco

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117964390#Comment_117964390

Thank you.

Ill look up Tog.

I have just seen a few sites, someone wanted a couple of hundred dollars for plans, I don't mind paying if I can get it printed and working and usable for training.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117964444#Comment_117964444

Do me one small favour and just ignore that poster. She seems to be under the impression you're asking for a mates rates kidney transplant, not a 3-d printed project.

CreadanLady

Fair enough.

But on the practical side, I don't understand why it needs to be 3D printed. Why is that? If it is just a training device and not intented to be of any practical use to hold or manipulate things then what is the point of complicating it by printing compotents.

Wouldn't a very simple actuator device, with some sort of binary indicator flag attached, or even 2 leds mounted on a hold be sufficient to indicate the notional "open" and "closed" positions in response to the signal from the muscle. Any a sensor(s) could be attached to the skin with a velcro strap around the limb. The indicator actuator or even the leds and any supporting circuitry and battery could be mounted in a compact desktop case, linked to the sensor velco srtap with a cable. Or even, then whole arrangement could be made compact enough to be attached to velcro strap with the sensors and entirely worn on the arm .

For an simple indicator training device rather than a functional device, 3D printing seems to be over complicating things adding unecessary cost and time input. Are we talking 3D printing simply because it is a buzzword and seems to fit with the whole direction prosthetics manufacturing is going, (which it is)?

Number one rule of engineering is identify the desired fuction and purpose, and then find the simplest and most straightforward method of achiving the desired purpose. KISS. Keep it simple stupid.

SunnySundays

Have you spoken with 3D Assist in Tallaght?

They might be apply to help you. They produce assist limbs but not sure it's exactly what you are looking for?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117964548#Comment_117964548

This indeed seems like a very good place to contact as they are a university which teaches students under due expertise and guidance:

https://tudublin.ie/explore/our-campuses/tallaght/research--innovation/research-centres--groups/3d-assist-tallaght/

CreadanLady may be absolutely technically correct (guess she is a professional engineer) but OP is probably trying to get the full psychological feel of the future functioning arm on board to maximise his input into the practice of its operation,

If OP can use the stimulus in his muscle to practice actuating the opening/closing of a hand-type device in any way up until this mammoth surgery, that is indeed the “operand” goal, but to see it in a device attached to his real arm is the icing on the cake and perhaps the real stimulus to a achieving his goal.

Just be wary, OP, not all “promises” are practically delivered in spite of someone’s fully genuine intentions. I think you have found out about this already. Enthusiasm to deliver is something I’ve seen which has been failed to be delivered, if you know what I mean.

Things are a bit too serious with you for you to be messed around with, don’t let this happen.

Turbulent Bill

OP, very sorry to hear about your injury; your frustration is obvious and understandable.

Any direction on training aids should come from your medical team and be clear, same as any other aspect of the treatment programme. I've no experience in your scenario, but if a training regime would simplify your treatment, surely the medical team would specify exactly how to do this (and what tools you need)?

I work in medical devices, but this really looks like a medical query (can I simplify the surgery?) rather than an engineering one. Your understandable urge to get things moving, and people's understandable urge to help, could end up giving you false hope if this doesn't align with the medical reality. Best of luck.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117969517#Comment_117969517

Consulting with a chartered physiotherapist who has specialist knowledge in this area could be helpful. They would not necessarily need a specific referral, would be be qualified to provide guidance in how the muscle could be best developed in preparation for the surgery and ultimate placement of device. It’s too serious an issue for random advice without the additional input of a suitably qualified person. In my own experience preparing for and recovering from orthopaedic surgery, physiotherapists offer very good bang for your buck. Physios tend to be very practical people too, and would advise in conjunction with engineering solutions that folk might come up with.

https://www.iscp.ie/find-a-physio

Finnrocco

Ok everybody thanks for all your input

Ill get in touch with a few of the mentioned people or organisations.

ozmo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117963807#Comment_117963807

Its a great idea.

Do consider the above again - the muscle sensor will show the level of the muscle - you can do without the led shield - but you will need an arduino (10 euros from adverts.ie and a laptop) and spare skin stickie pads.

eg. see this on youtube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wlx8JndAgs

the 3d printing would take longer to manufacture(takes days to print large items) and maybe multiple versions required to get a fit; its not just printing but there are motors, moving parts and fastners etc to deal with -

so if you can get just the training lights/graph above working you can add the mechanics as a second part of the project after you have proven you can get the sensors to work. The graph may even be enough.

you will need to be sure you are training the correct muscles, and what levels they need to be - but Im sure you know that part.

Best of luck.

kirving

It looks like 3D Assist would be a good starting point. They look to have similar experience in this area which is absolutely vital.

As any doctor would abide by the "first do no harm" mantra, a professional engineer will do the very same.

With the best will in the world, anyone who suggests that it's just a bit of soldering and some code downloaded to an Arduino is simply naive. I'm a mechanical engineer, working in electronics, and deal with automation equipment every day. I've also had a number of orthopaedic surgeries over the past 2 years or so, and happy to say that I don't know what I don't know about orthopaedics, physio or the nervous system.

There are also risks for even the most rudimentary of devices. These could range from simply slowing your recovery due to to training the wrong muscles, right up to say dropping a pot of boiling water on a child because the arm broke in half. You can't realistically expect an engineer you find online to assume that responsibility and liability. A post on a forum isn't going to cut it when you realise someone has lead you astray and caused injury to a third party.

I do hope you find something which is of help, genuinely. It is extremely off putting though, for professionals who might want to get involved, when you and others on the thread are repeatedly underestimating the amount of work involved.

shesty

I have a Masters in Bioengineering, - you don't knock this type of thing together over a weekend.

That being said can I also suggest you try contacting Universities, as they may have some ideas/suggestions or resources that might help.UCD, UCG and Trinity I know all have very good programmes in Bioengineering so that could be a start.DCU have an excellent mechatronic programme also I think, might be worth a look.They may have research ongoing or facilities they might allow you to check out that might be useful, or be able to put you in touch with a company or individual that can assist.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117976313#Comment_117976313

This has brought to mind an air accident report I read (the avgeek I am) about an experienced BE Captain who had an artificial arm, and, as pilot flying, was landing his aircraft in very gusty conditions. His left bionic arm became dislodged just prior to touchdown and was left detached “holding” the control stick whilst his right hand grappled to adjust the throttle in response to a sudden change in wind vector. As a result the aircraft touched down extremely hard and bounced a number of times, causing more embarrassment that damage. It took some re-engineering to find a more fail-safe mechanism to ensure his arm remained attached for all future flights. If it hadn’t been gusting his right hand would have adequately controlled the aircraft and the First Officer would have stepped in to assist, but all happened so suddenly. People can do all sorts of things with various limb impairments, but it has to be got just right if safety is at stake.

So OP, don't be signing up as a pilot with Ryanair, or carrying around pots of boiling water with your new DIY arm.

This thread is absolutely ridiculous.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117980116#Comment_117980116

I guess you know my concern is that the OP doesn’t get let down yet again, there’s way too much at stake for him in this scenario. If he can really be assisted, I would say to anyone who can do it, please do and follow through.

I’ve had personal radical surgery which you’ve seen for yourself, if someone had offered a device that ended up not fitting me after I would have been absolutely devastated. But the thread is about the OP.