The creeping prominence of the Irish language

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118128893#Comment_118128893

"Hate speech"...?! Seriously - how can that be hate speech?

Irish is not a nessecary skill to have in function in life. Case in point - millions of people don;t have it and lead successful happy lives.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118128960#Comment_118128960

Taking a langauge that very few people want to learn and making it optional is not going to help the langauge to thrive. What do you think happens when you can no longer force people to do it?

Upforthematch

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118129046#Comment_118129046

Because it was contemptuous and because you wouldn't say it about any other minority language in Ireland.

I think people know when they're not respected, it's possible to keep the respect there even when they don't agree.

Edit: I'll add, because languages are so personal as well. It clearly is a life-skill to the native person who speaks it.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118129066#Comment_118129066

This is the "Orwellian" coutner all over again - put a surreally inaccurate spin on it and imply that THAT'S I MUST have meant while ignoring what the crystal cleat point that I made

I said, simply, "English is a life-skill, Irish is not." Nothing comtemptuous and not enen relevant to any other language.

And for the thrid time: people lead succesful, happy, fully-functioning lives without Irish. Until you can prove THAT statement wrong, the point stands that Irish is not a life skill.

NickNickleby

As a schoolboy(1960's), it seemed to me that most of our Irish teachers were maniacs. Now, having said that, i liked Irish enough to graduate to the 'A' stream where all subjects were taught through Irish. What was funny, was that when I did the entrance exam for secondary, I had to translate the questions in my head to Irish....

I left school at 16, but retained my fluency -which was as good as any news reader's - well into my twenties. In my fifties, I attended Comhrá sessions locally, just to mix with some local Irish enthusiasts, out of curiosity. Most of them were like me, reliving schooldays without the screaming and the hidings. Unfortunately, a very small number were out and out Irish language fascists, and managed to drive everyone else away. So, 40+ years later, I STILL associated Irish with headcase ultra nationalists, the type that believe that only true Irish people use the language. So, whenever I hear of a new initiative to 'promote' the Irish language, in my minds eye its this kind of person I see. And so to the topic of the thread. The latest initiative I have become aware of, is Irish language programmes on RTE one. There's one at the moment about pets "Peataí". If I wanted to watch tv in Irish, I'd switch to TG4. However, I have dozens of channels to choose from, so a quick zap and I'm away. I suppose eventually the Gaelgeoiri will succeed in making Irish the predominant language on RTE etc, and fool themselves that they've achieved Gaelgeoir utopia, while the rest of us are gone to Satellite and Internet TV.

osarusan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118129063#Comment_118129063

Taking a langauge that very few people want to learn and making it optional is not going to help the langauge to thrive.

This is more or less what I said, not sure why you are saying it in response to me.

What do you think happens when you can no longer force people to do it?

A large majority decide not to learn it, and its condition gets even worse.

This is why (in my opinion) the state will not stop forcing people to learn it.

deirdremf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118127395#Comment_118127395

The sociolinguistic nuances are numerous and would require a much deeper exposition than can be managed here.

Indeed they are.

I quote from the book Crannóga by Liam Ó Sé. Chapter 5 begins:

The Ghetto

On my way back to medical school in the autumn of 1945 the first leg of my journey to Dublin brought me as far as Limerick with just enough time for a hasty lunch. ... The diningroom of the nearest hotel seemed full but the waiter managed to find space for me at a table already occupied by five soldiers in the uniform of the United States ... Some way into my meal I became aware that something odd was afoot - they were all conversing in fluent Irish.

There was one GI whose Irish, while fluent, was clearly school Irish; he, in fact, had emigrated from his native Dublin just before the war. The others, whom I had taken to be from Connemara, were with one exception second or third generation Irish-Americans from Boston. The fifth, who was a fourth-generation Irish-American, hailed not from Boston as one might have expected, but from somewhere not too far from Chicago. All the Irish-Americans had learned Irish in the homes of their parents. (pp 99-100)

deirdremf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118128302#Comment_118128302

A question for you if you don't mind, I just remembered Boards has an Irish language forum. If communicating through Irish is so important to, according to you, so many people why has it only had seven or so threads updated this year? It's free, a way to easily chat about things and yet no one seems to use it. Could this be a microcosm of Irish language use in the country, even when services are provided they're not actually used?

Looks like a pretty accurate representation of the use of the Irish language to be honest i.e. SFA

You see, there are lots of Irish language fora out there, and I'd say most Irish speakers on this (mainly) English language forum participate in one or more of them.

Take a look at twitter, facebook, tiktok etc -- plenty of young people there too, not just old fogeys!

Upforthematch

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118129085#Comment_118129085

Thanks to Deirdre, I reread your post with the eye of a native Irish speaker (I'm not btw) - and imagine reading that your own language isn't a life-skill in your own country. It's your life-skill if it's the language your mother taught you.

I mean if we were debating about the HSE sending out leaflets in Polish, African languages etc... to encourage minorities to take up the Covid-19 vaccine, something I heard on the radio during the week, I bet you would not say, that's a waste, Polish isn't a life-skill in Ireland, sure most if not all Poles here can speak English.

What stings most about the comment is that we all know that comment wouldn't be made about any language other than Irish.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118128917#Comment_118128917

Sigh, a single stat, on its own, in a vacuum means nothing

Lets dive a little deeper into your link. Looking at, lets say, the top 25 twitter accounts, we can see the following

• TnG, CnG and RnG accounts (sections, personalities and reporters) for 9 of the total
• Another 4 are other Irish language journo's/Irish language news sites
• One is a defunct bot
• There is a combined average of tweeting in Irish, of 62.5% across the 25 accounts
• There is a total of 1,025,667 tweets in Irish, however the top 5 user account for 56% of that figure

So, stating

Over 14,000 users have sent Irish language tweets, over 4 million of them.

Is like when the rail freight lobby said "Hey look, between 2006 and 2018 we carried 8.3 million tons of freight on railways in Ireland, aren't we great."

Well, yeah I guess it looks great, until you realise that road haulage carries the same amount in 2 days what took 12 years on rail.

Evade

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118129066#Comment_118129066

I would say that the only life skill language you need Ireland is English, I don't really see what's that contentious about that.

deirdremf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118128547#Comment_118128547

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118128564#Comment_118128564

"we have been independent for a nearly a century"

We have indeed. We have been talking about the creeping prominence of Irish. We have discussed the language's position in the education system, and I have mentioned the low number of Gaelscoileanna relative to the number of parents who would like to have their children educated through Irish; in the region of 25%, according to surveys. Outside the Gaeltacht, this proportion is reached only in Galway city. Most counties have under 10% or primary school kids being educated through Irish. This is mainly down to lack of supply, not lack of demand.

Which ties in very nicely with Upforthematch who tells us that banning things is no longer the way the Orwellian state goes - instead, difficulties are put in the way of people who wish to access services in Irish. Basically, services are just not made available at all - primary education is among the "success stories" in the face of huge enmity on the part of the authorities. Secondary education is much harder to come by, and tertiary education is basically not available at all.

boardise

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118127334#Comment_118127334

Thank you muchly for your contribution. In fact I would not need subtitles as I am a linguist and Gaelic scholar of many years standing as well as a prizewinner at Fleadh Cheoil na hEireann and Oireachtas na Gaeilge. I play and sing traditional and sean-nos songs and tunes almost every day of my life. Too many people who claim to be supporters of Gaelic revivalism resort unnecessarily to puerile name-calling such as ' West Brit', post-colonial self-hater/cultural cringer , 'house Paddy' etc. directed towards anyone who dares to expose the weakness and inadequacy of their arguments. Well they can take 'em and shove 'em because they don't apply to me.

This practice of hanging pejorative labels on people they don't know achieves nothing other than to show the abject poverty of their position.

deirdremf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118128715#Comment_118128715

No, that certainly doesn't include comments - which is where the debate takes place.

It's a typical misrepresentation by someone who wants to dismiss the language.

deirdremf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118128938#Comment_118128938

The racists and snobs prefer to send their kids to places like Blackrock College and its ilk.

There are foreign kids from various language backgrounds and of various skin shades at every Gaelscoil I know. Which is more than a few ...

deirdremf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118129046#Comment_118129046

Case in point - thousands of millions don't speak English. It's not a necessary skill to function in life.

Evade

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118129244#Comment_118129244

It's not a misrepresentation, it's a private page so I can't see any of the comments and there's no indication of the number of comments on the publicly available information. I also clarified that a post in Facebook terms is equivalent to a thread here on Boards, twice. Who is misrepresenting who here?

Upforthematch

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118129214#Comment_118129214

It's fine for us native english speakers to say that about English. If you are a native Irish speaker (or another minority language for that matter) that's not going to read like a fair or respectful comment. Think about it, unconscious bias and all that, and I'll admit I came late to this one as well.

The clue is in the word "only" - it's exclusive and doesn't recognise that it's the language spoken at the kitchen table is that person's life-skill.

Upforthematch

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118129180#Comment_118129180

Thanks for that, interesting to see that TG4 is leading the way.

I agree on the single stat comment. What's the frame of reference though? Welsh, the most successful celtic language?

You can't compare it to English, global world language and all that.

deirdremf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118129085#Comment_118129085

Your comment is enormously contemptuous, and the fact that you cannot see that is just soooooo telling.

Indeed, I've seen your posts on the Irish language over several years, and they are generally contemptuous; again your lack of self-awareness here is something to behold.

But Irish speakers are used to this, there is a small loud-mouthed minority in the country who behave in this way. For decades they - very successfully - used the IRA as a weapon against Irish, but since the IRA gave up the ghost all that remains is the dismissive contemptuous attitude and the false argument of let's make it optional while opposing every attempt at making it possible for a person to live their lives through Irish even within the remaining Gaeltacht communities.

Evade

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118129289#Comment_118129289

We seem to be using different definitions of life skill, I'm using this one from Google, "a skill that is necessary or desirable for full participation in everyday life," by that definition English is the only necessary language.

Upforthematch

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118129231#Comment_118129231

I agree with everything you said there, including the pointed comment at me.

Let's do our best to not get personal, ad hominem isn't the way to go, but we have to keep in mind that there are native Irish speakers out there.

deirdremf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118128914#Comment_118128914

Fair enough, but in your case you still come across as culturally narrow-minded despite not being monolingual.

It's fair to say that you are not alone, but you do remind me of the priest who didn't like a woman of my acquaintance sending her kid to a Gaelscoil rather than the local Catholic school.

"Your child would be better off learning French or German" he told her.

"Fine Father" was her reply, "if you can direct me to a French of German language school in the parish I'll send my child there".

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118129309#Comment_118129309

Why would I compare it to any other language? Why not compare it to English? Its the language spoken by most of the population on a daily basis. In which case, refer to my rail freight analogy for English Vs Irish volumes of tweets

boardise

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117977810#Comment_117977810

Reminds me of the time I found myself in Derry during the height of the PIRA murder campaign when I wandered into a meeting outside the Guildhall. Speeches were being made from a stage . Then there was a lull after which a series of incomprehensible vocal noises emanated from the stage. A young woman just in front of me asked her female companion 'What's goin' on'? 'Ach' came the reply 'that's only Johnny and his fúckin' Irish'.

deirdremf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118129319#Comment_118129319

By that definition, you have ignored the word desirable.

Quelle surprise.

And I recognise that desirable can mean different things to different people, but to completely ignore the word?

Upforthematch

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118129360#Comment_118129360

You're the one who said, correctly, a single stat on its own isn't that meaningful.

If can you get stats of English language tweets broken down by country, great, please forward on the ones for Ireland.

Evade

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118129349#Comment_118129349

Why am I narrow minded is it because I don't have any interest in your pet cause?

The priest in you story is an idiot. Going to a Gaelscoil doesn't replace you learning French/German/whatever in secondary school.

deirdremf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118129395#Comment_118129395

I'm surprised that I have to spell this out for you.

Your comments resemble those of the priest.

This is how you come across to me:

"I'm not monolingual, but I won't be having any of your damn Irish thanks".

Upforthematch

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118129319#Comment_118129319

Same definition. Except it sounds in your case it's the native English speaker that gets to define this and anyone else doesn't get a look in.

Who do think should get to define this? Think about it before concluding everybody in Ireland has to have the same everyday life.

Evade

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118129393#Comment_118129393

I didn't ignore the word desirable, I took it to mean make easier. You don't need to know how to drive or cook in order to fully participate in life, but it might be desirable. There's almost nothing you need Irish for to fully participate in modern Ireland.

You can desire to do something all you like it doesn't make it necessary.

deirdremf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118129231#Comment_118129231

linguist and Gaelic scholar of many years standing as well as a prizewinner at Fleadh Cheoil na hEireann and Oireachtas na Gaeilge. I play and sing traditional and sean-nos songs and tunes almost every day

That's a very interesting curriculum, and you are certainly the only person with any - and I repeat any - of those qualities that I have ever come across who refers to the Irish language as Gaelic.

Evade

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118129413#Comment_118129413

And? I don't want or need Irish for anything, you can have it, just don't inconvenience me with it. I know you don't believe it but this isn't coming from a place of ignorance, I used to be as fluent as any teenager outside of a Gaeltacht could be. But that doesn't matter I don't champion your pet cause therefore I'm narrowminded. Your attitude does more damage to your cause than I ever could.

deirdremf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118129428#Comment_118129428

This is what you wrote:

by that definition English is the only necessary language.

So of course you ignored the word desirable as it is core to the definition you quoted: necessary or desirable is what it says; you cut out the word desirable, and on the face of it I don't think it is unfair to deduce that - perhaps unconsciously - you did so because the inclusion of that word didn't suit your purpose.

Evade

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118129423#Comment_118129423

The reality of the country defines it. Bar speaking to the almost certainly non existent Irish monoglot what does anyone need Irish for? Need, not want.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118129394#Comment_118129394

Sure, you first with the Irish tweets by country first. It was your stat after all, only fair you go first so I have a baseline to compare to

Evade

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118129457#Comment_118129457

No. English is necessary, a driver's licence is desirable, Irish is neither.

deirdremf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118129394#Comment_118129394

It makes very little difference to any argument, as obviously there will be many more tweets in English than in Irish.

One of the interesting points about the list of bodies involved in the tweeting is the ones that are lacking and that prove the absence of services in Irish: the HSE, NPHET to name but two from the last 20 months or so.

Also the lack of government departments, the Dáil etc. You'd expect them all to have a huge on-line presence, yet they don't seem to be there.

Case proved in a nutshell, I think.

Upforthematch

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118129461#Comment_118129461

Lol, It's a pity you went to all that good work on the link I gave you only to give up now and not deliver on the criteria you set yourself @DaCor! Ah well, guess we'll never know.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118129484#Comment_118129484

Knew you'd chicken out lol

deirdremf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118129472#Comment_118129472

Irish is neither

to you, but it is desirable to a great many people in the country. A great many parents are having their children educated through Irish, so it is obviously desirable to those parents. It will probably be desirable to many of those kids, who will also wish for their children to be educated through Irish.

Thus, a desirable skill. Not to you, and that's fine. What surprises me for someone who couldn't care less about Irish is the amount of vehemence in your posts; not to mention that you bother posting on the subject at all.

It really seems to get your goat up for some reason, maybe you could share?

Upforthematch

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118129460#Comment_118129460

"necessary or desirable" is what your definition said.

If I lived in a gaeltacht and was a native Irish speaker for example, I should be able to do 24 hours of activity through Irish and it is done.

1 Radio - check

2 Family - check

3 School - check

4 Doctor - check

5 Shop - check

6 Job - check

7 Exercise - check

8 TV & Online Content - check

9 Deal with state body through irish - "desirable" ;)

10 Religious service - check

Irish is my life-skill in this scenario and to tell me it isn't is not only factually incorrect but totally dismissive of me and my family.

What's interesting is that there are many new Irish that can tick a majority of these points in their native languages too. Go to more established migrant communities in the UK and they can tick almost all of them.

Evade

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118129509#Comment_118129509

Desirable to some absolutely but not in the context of "full participation in everyday life," who seems to be ignoring parts of the definition now? The reality of Ireland in 2021 is you might want Irish, that's fine I don't care what you do, but it's not necessary.

Evade

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118129529#Comment_118129529

But nobody who speaks Irish doesn't speak English any more so you're not being prevented from fully participating, it's just not in the exact way you want. You're twisting the definition of desirable away from "would benefit" to "would like." At the end of the day I agree with you that if the demand is there and there's an adequate supply you should be able to do all those things in Irish. But the supply doesn't seem to be there and the way things are going never will again, and that's fine. I have real doubts about the actual demand too.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118129177#Comment_118129177

And again with the misrepresentation. Here: Chinese is not a life skill in Ireland. Polish is not a life skill in Ireland. Klingon is not a life skill in Ireland. Dothraki is not a life skill in English.

People who don't speak those langauges lead succesful, happy, fully-functioning lives.

deirdremf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118129534#Comment_118129534

"a skill that is necessary or desirable for full participation in everyday life,"

Not your life obviously, but for many of us it is not only desirable, but absolutely necessary.

I mean I appreciate that you'd much rather I spoke English to my family, but for me it is my family language.

Then again for all I know you speak to your kids in whatever non-English language it is that you know. So you see, English isn't necessary for you, merely desirable! Moreover, as you claim to have once been fluent in Irish you could very easily be so again; therefore English is doubly not necessary for you as you have two other options if I understand you correctly.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118129281#Comment_118129281

In Ireland?!

I mean, if we're going worldwide, sure - but then what percentage og 8 billion don't speak Irish and get alone fine?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118129431#Comment_118129431

Oops. Don't pick them up for doing that. They don't like being caught out.

Upforthematch

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118129560#Comment_118129560

I go back to my earlier comment

"Irish, what an impractical language, and you can be sure as fcuk we're going to keep it that way!"

Yes, in fact, the native Irish speaker is being prevented from fully participating by rejecting their right to live life through their native language and not recognising, even the possibility (!), that their native language is their life-skill in their community.

And you don't see how someone might be insulted by that stance?

@Princess Consuela Bananahammock same reply to your post.

boardise

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117982454#Comment_117982454

It might be useful for younger folk here to google 'Language Freedom Movement Mansion House'. This tells of a shameful violent fascistic action on the part of a crazed mob of Gaelic fanatics to disrupt Irish citizens at a public gathering and prevent free unfettered discussion of their business. A little bit of 'Hidden History' so to speak.