The creeping prominence of the Irish language

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117968775#Comment_117968775

so you want a referendum to change the place of the Irish language in the state? and all because you have to hear some announcements in Irish? The country really is turning into a bunch of pathetic whinging children.

Great to see it still quite popular in the west. It's a beautiful language, and it's ours.

L1011

A standalone referendum to change the constitutional position on the language would never, ever, ever pass.

However, fully expect some change to it to be proposed in a referendum if there is ever a likelyhood of unity - to avoid having to give equal status to Ulster Scots. And that would pass.

Provision for recognised minority status, funding, education options and so on; maybe even enhanced regional prominance rules for Gaeltachts - but without equal prominence nationally - to stop us having to have everything have Ulster Scots on it too.

Fishdoodle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117968004#Comment_117968004

I'm guessing the idea of more prominence to Irish language is getting your back up.

However, if I'm wrong .... and 'pseudo-revivalism' (as you interpret it) is somehow irritating/offensive, what would be your more full-hearted alternative to enhance the recognition and use of Irish without getting your own or other 'peoples backs up'?

CGI_Livia_Soprano

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117968709#Comment_117968709

“is there really anyone today who feels inferiority about any aspect of Irish culture?”

yeah, the Irish language. Otherwise this thread wouldn’t exist. 🙄

It’s the typical inferiority complex rubbish from the self hating Irishman.

They want to impose English on everyone else and then they can’t even read a single word of Irish in an email subject line without throwing a bitchfit. “Aboriginal language,” “English is the language of finance,” “it was bet into us in school,” “whichever language people speak in the bedroom is none of my business.” Blah blah blah. Snowflakes the lot of them.

Reati

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117968735#Comment_117968735

Nothing disingenuous about it. Cost is often tossed out in the Irish language debate and few actually know what they are talking about. You mentioned cost. I thought you might have some details.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117968783#Comment_117968783

I refer you to the guidance to public bodies - https://www.coimisineir.ie/userfiles/files/Guidebook4.pdf

It is not just 'some announcements in Irish'. It's remit is all encompassing across the full gamut of government communications, messaging and information.

Read it.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117968798#Comment_117968798

Introducing the ILA (OLA, this isn't NI, not sure why I said ILA) brought in costs that didn't exist before. That is all I said.

If you want to know details, FOI away. You aren't going to get them by badgering people.

Shao Kahn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117968069#Comment_117968069

People very often trot this sort of mantra out when talking about the Irish language. "It's very important to our culture and heritage". And it's one of those tropes that many people simply nod along to in agreement, perhaps without giving it much thought because it sounds right.

But then ask someone why exactly is it so important? And people, even in the gaelteacht, will struggle to give you a solid concrete answer. It will usually be some wishy washy type response, which basically equates to saying "it just is okay".

The reality is that, being connected to your heritage and culture or 'Irishness' is not really dependent on being able to speak the Irish language. 

In fact it's somewhat insulting to the vast majority on the Island, to suggest this. Almost like the fluent speakers in the gaelteacht are the ultimate gatekeepers of what it truly means to be Irish, and the rest of us are some sort of fraudulent pretend Irish people. 

Would you tell an Italian the same thing, because they're not fluent in latin? Of course not, that would be insulting. Well I feel the same way, when fluent Irish speakers try to brow beat people with their language.

I feel very connected to my Irishness. I have a great interest in our history and traditions, and I don't need to speak a lick of Irish to have that deep connection to our country. It's just a myth and propaganda, spread by the Irish language zealots, who think their speaking of the language makes them special in some vital way. It doesn't!  

The Irish language isn't even really that important for tourism. Which is probably one of the biggest arguments you could make for plastering it all over signs and buildings at great tax payer expense. What language do we use when teaching tourists about Irish history and culture? You're not going to get very far, if you speak fluent Irish to a bunch of german or french tourists. (beyond a few token phrases just to show off).

The Irish language is like Latin to me. I'm not anti-Irish language. I have no desire to see it wiped out or anything like that. But these attempts to shove it down everyone's throat and shame people into thinking they're not really Irish if they don't value it, are pointless and arrogant. I don't resent the language, but I do slightly resent the people who are relentlessly pushing it on people.  

Duckworth_Luas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117968775#Comment_117968775

Has anyone mentioned "shoved down our throats" yet!

ireallydontknow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117968792#Comment_117968792

'Blah blah blah' I wouldn't expect anything more from an Irish language enthusiast.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117968790#Comment_117968790

Have people learn the language in significant enough numbers to actually justify the prominence. And don't pretend what's holding the language back is the positioning of Irish relative to English.

CGI_Livia_Soprano

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117968809#Comment_117968809

haha you think people speak Irish in the Gaeltacht so that they can communicate with French and German tourists? What a load of codswallop

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117968809#Comment_117968809

Agree broadly, but it has been set in concrete in legislation by Eamon O'Cuiv back in 2003. Ordinary civil & public servants and offices have no option now but to comply even if personally they think it completely OTT. They have to relentlessly push it onto people.

That legislation is near 20 years old and it has taken time to bite but recent years have seen a significant ramping up of enforcement & implementation. Only in recent years are we seeing the full impact of the Official Languages Act.

Meeoow

Duo lingo has a nice bit of Irish on it, not like that Babbel sh1te.

I'm brushing up on my gaelige now, and it's coming back to me.

I didn't like Irish at school, mostly because of how it is taught. I have a new appreciation of it now, and I think we should be proud of our language instead of being inconvienced by it.

CGI_Livia_Soprano

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117968824#Comment_117968824

You're the only person who is talking about holding the language back, while asking why the language isn't held back more.

snowstorm445

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117968709#Comment_117968709

There absolutely is a sense of inferiority behind it. Usually cloaked up with the argument that it's more economical for people to never learn Irish as well as English as it'll get you further in life. If that were true then you'd see people across most of the world abandoning their own languages en masse and only teaching their children English or Mandarin or Arabic. But they don't. No one would argue that Estonian is a global language worth learning, but you're not going to see Estonians completely ditching their language because English will get you farther.

People who make this argument assume there's no such thing as being bilingual. The fact is that in most countries, especially in Europe, people learn to speak English fluently while still speaking their own language (most Northern Europeans nowadays are almost functionally native in English, but never to the detriment of their own language). Your average Dane or Czech would definitely agree that there's a need to be fluent in English, but if you told them their own languages are a waste of time and they should only speak English they'd rightly tell you to féck off. I'm not saying that everyone in Ireland should be bilingual, we're long beyond that point now, but I see no reason why we shouldn't afford bilingual facilities for people who still want to use Irish.

So either you believe that there is something about Irish people that means we can only speak one language at a time, or you must think Irish is such a linguistic liability that it shouldn't even appear on signs, let alone be taught alongside English. If that's not an inferiority complex, I don't know what is.

Duckworth_Luas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117968775#Comment_117968775

Switzerland? The country with four official languages! Which one do you think they would pick on for removal of that status?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117967476#Comment_117967476

I remember being on a bus driving into Dublin city in 2016 and a gentleman was having a conversation in Irish

on his phone and it was beautiful to hear!

Reati

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117968809#Comment_117968809

Just in the point about your interest in history and traditions.

You are right, you don't need Irish to understand it or enjoy it but without speaking Irish how do you know it's not more enjoyable even clearer through Irish. A ton of context and alliteration for example, is lost in translation.

A great example is the book, An béal bocht. In its English translation, it's a good read that tries hard to capture the essence of the Irish but just falls short. In Irish, it's a masterpiece of the written language that even the greatest translation can't match in its subtle meanings.

ireallydontknow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117968849#Comment_117968849

Very weak. You assert without any argument that there is a feeling of inferiority behind dislike of the Irish language and then proceed to discuss at length the argument about the lack of utility of Irish, which in no way affects my argument.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117968843#Comment_117968843

That is utterly incoherent.

CGI_Livia_Soprano

One poster commented that speaking Irish to an Irish person is like speaking Latin to an Italian, completely ignorant of more appropriate comparisons with regional dialects in Italy etc. That's the kind of lengths the self-hating Irishman will go to to excuse their internalised hibernophobia. Inventing cockamamie false analogies about dead languages and so on while reveling in their own lack of knowledge.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117968802#Comment_117968802

I am aware of what it encompasses. It has minimal effect on your life yet you whinge like it has ruined it.

Cyclingtourist

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117968790#Comment_117968790

Enhancing the recognition of Irish, whatever that means, is not something I see as a priority. Those who do should put their minds to it.

likewise as regarding its use that's up to those who speak it and want to learn it. There are already adequate state supports for learning and using it so if people who think it's a good idea to 'enhance' it's use or recognition should just speak it among themselves and watch/listen to TG4/RnG.

olestoepoke

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117968836#Comment_117968836

How much of an inconvenience is it really? Imagine complaining about the Irish language being used in Ireland, how much of a whinger would you need to be? I suspect the vast majority of Irish born people are fine with the language regardless of wether they speak it or not, I'd wager even the "new Irish" are indifferent to seeing our language on display. I also suspect that some of the posters in this thread are probably Unionists from Northern Ireland or protestants living in the south. Same posters most probably complained about our presidents refusal to attend that recent even, and any argument you put forward in support of our language will fall on deaf ignorant ears.

Strumms

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117968836#Comment_117968836

Despite Irish being our native language I struggled with it... it was one of my best subjects.. second or third best in primary, I loved it but in secondary I struggled, I didn’t have much luck as... an inexperienced and very temperamental young teacher who was looking back, struggling in her first years in her profession, a wild fiery temperament and unpredictable personality and she was all over the kip... for leaving it was a close to retirement snorefest of a human just putting in the hours until retirement.....told us... “ I genuinely don’t care if you pass, fail or whatever, I’ll teach but if you don’t learn..not my problem .”

All well and good but if you were unsure and had a question... “ I already covered that were you not paying attention sunshine “ ?

ireallydontknow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117968809#Comment_117968809

Well said. Contrary to what others have said about postcolonial attitudes, I think it is the implicit belief that the Irish language is the authentic language of Ireland that most people object to about its promotion. Read Joyce, listen to Luke Kelly, watch Love/Hate...English is the language that has mediated our culture for a century.

Furze99

The underlying issue is in Article 8 of the constitution.

Article 8 of the Constitution states: The Irish language as the national language is the first official language. The English language is recognised as a second official language.

Maybe it's time for an honest and open debate on that in modern Ireland and let the voting public decide in a referendum if this reflects their reality and needs.

As an article it has meant little other than vague aspiration since the foundation of the state. But has been used by language lobbyists to engineer a new vision.

The citizenry at large should be consulted in this matter to see if we agree.

olestoepoke

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117968853#Comment_117968853

I have a close friend who is a Gaeilgeoir, we were attending a game in Croke Park recently and at the half time beverage he spotted a friend of his in the distance. They called to each other and spoke Irish for a good 10 minutes in as natural a way as two English speakers. Now this was great to see and hear but what was truly amazing is that his friend came here with his parents from Africa and sent their child to a 'Gaeilscoil, my friend knew him because he played hurling with him for many years.

Wibbs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117968849#Comment_117968849

There absolutely is a sense of inferiority behind it. Usually cloaked up with the argument that it's more economical for people to never learn Irish as well as English as it'll get you further in life.

That was about the biggest reason it died off in the first place. The moment it stopped being used by the learned and the businessmen it quite quickly became bypassed in urban life, from east to west and became a "peasant" language. I don't mean that in a derogatory way, but when the money and brains and officialdom walk away from a language it's on life support. The pictish language of Scotland died a death in a similar way, ironically because Irish on the back of Christian missionaries and trade meant the latter was the language to have. Ancient Greek was the lingua franca of much of south eastern Europe and it's pretty much totally gone nowadays outside of academia for similar reasons. Latin only hung on because of the church and because for much of the last two thousand years the church was the font of the learned and laws and commerce often used it.

Irish in many ways still faces the same problems. It's a minority language of conversation, helped of late by the gaelscoileanna, in use in primary, but beyond, even outside that not so much. Unlike the Danes and Czechs you mention it would be almost impossible for an Irish person to live their lives using only Irish. There are Czech engineers, clerical workers, doctors, solicitors, bus drivers etc who would only be fluent in Czech. That could not happen here. Hebrew was reinvigorated in its modern form because Israel required a lingua franca, we already have one. So that's not in play here either.

I reckon Irish is in a better position than 20 years ago. I'd be shocked if it grew to any appreciable degree, but it's now a stable minority language where it wasn't not so long ago and that's a good thing. OK much of the signage and train announcements and the like are cultural dressing more than anything, but so what? The tourists that were mentioned love all that stuff and it keeps the sound of the language in the air.

Ave Sodalis

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117968824#Comment_117968824

Wow. "Irish language enthusiast" being used as an insult is really about all we need to know about the standard of the OP's argument. Whining about Irish being used in Ireland is ridiculous to the point of infantile.

snowstorm445

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117968878#Comment_117968878

You are bothered by the appearance of Irish in public spaces. You regard it's presence as zealotry, that promoting it is extremism.

It's a national language, just as many of the examples I've mentioned are national languages in their own countries. English is still the majority language and it always features alongside Irish in any official context. But a small minority continue to use Irish, as is their right.

Why else would you dislike it appearing in public spaces then - in Ireland, where the language is spoken? What hassle is it causing you? Are you ever prevented from using English? It is an aspect of ourselves that makes us unique - we're no less Irish for using English, but why would it bother you when you come across it?

Disliking not just the use, but the mere presence of Irish in Ireland seems to to me to bely an inferiority complex. Hence why I gave the examples of other nationalities not similarly abandoning their national languages out of utility or avoiding bilingualism - because they still hold their languages in esteem and don't regard them as liabilities.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117968744#Comment_117968744

I think the tourists would be ok with it as long as the sign was in both languages. One of the things I like about travelling is hearing the local language. But we're certainly not talking about consequences in the same way we are about allowing people to marry or terminate pregnancies. It's not exactly a life-changing issue.

CGI_Livia_Soprano

The only language zealots in Ireland are the English language zealots who insisted and still insist on imposing their language on everyone on the island, including Irish speakers in the Gaeltacht. Irish speakers are scorned for asking for the exact same services and signage as their English speaking counterparts and spat in the face for it, constantly being told "sure you can speak English anyway" as if that means anything to someone who grew up speaking Irish as their first language. Irish speakers can't even send a group email in Irish without someone going up in arms about it. And then the English speakers have the balls to criticise Irish speakers for their "zealotry." It's ludicrous.

KaneToad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117968906#Comment_117968906

Watch Love/Hate...Jesus wept...

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117969003#Comment_117969003

There are zealots on both sides of the argument.

CGI_Livia_Soprano

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117969032#Comment_117969032

No there isn’t. You will never see an Irish speaker imposing their language on an English speaker like vice versa.

Irish speakers have to struggle daily to be treated equally in this country, all the while being a vessel for any English speaker to vomit their frustrations about the “Modh Coinníollach” into.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117968709#Comment_117968709

There’s no zealotry is having some things in Irish and somethings in English in a country which recognises both languages as official. The lighthouse is a private enterprise, and it’s decision to not use English somehow enrages you? Imagine living in Switzerland with that attitude. Or any multilingual country.

you know what to do if you want to not have Irish in school or on road signs. It needs a constitutional change. Not that that would stop a cinema from advertising in any language it wanted to.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117968744#Comment_117968744

Oh ffs, tourists go to places where English isnt the first language all the time.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117969060#Comment_117969060

You don't have to 'impose' your language on someone to be a zealot.

And Irish speakers are not discriminated against just because someone doesn't speak to you m Irish.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117968709#Comment_117968709

All English speakers are like this, for sure. But what has that got to do with my instincts. I can get by in 4 languages. I’m saying that the oppressed English language speakers on here are like the English speakers abroad who expect everything to be in English.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117968823#Comment_117968823

Literally the post just above yours. Haha.

Shao Kahn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117968906#Comment_117968906

Completely agree.

Or imagine you had written Father Ted for an Irish language audience.

Millions of people would have missed out on a great modern piece of Irish comedy writing. Yeah sure, you could have subtitled it, but it's not really the same.

Producing something like that in English, doesn't stop any of the Irish language speakers from enjoying it - because they're all fluent in English. If there was something great produced on TG4, millions would miss out on it because they can't be arsed reading subtitles and can't be arsed learning a language that is basically useless to them in the vast majority of their everyday life.

I doubt very much if our ancient ancestors would have had the same idealistic view of their language as some of the modern proponents. Language was used for survival and efficiency of society - a pragmatic tool. And it is still largely used for that purpose to this day. The fact that our ancient traditions, culture and practices were tied up in the Irish language, is because that was the tool widely used during that time. Not necessarily because Irish is any more special than any other language - it was simply the tool of choice during that time.

The practices and traditions that our ancient ancestors considered important to their society, were inter-dependent on language of course, but it was those traditions that were mostly significant. Not which language they happened to be speaking at the time. Look at Britain - they spoke many different languages over the centuries - celtic / latin / germanic - but they didn't lose their cultural identity as a group of people.

The very fact that Ireland has a vibrant culture and a strong connection with our history and traditions - despite the vast majority of our people not speaking Irish - would seem to be very strong proof that a group of people do not lose their cultural identity, just because they stop speaking one language and start speaking another language. Otherwise we would have lost our identity as a people a very long time ago, when the Brits beat the language out of us - but we didn't. The language was not essential for keeping hold of our identity as a people.

Unless of course, you want to believe like I said, that the fluent Irish speakers over in the gaelteacht, are the sole gatekeepers of what it means to be Irish. And they alone have been responsible for keeping our cultural identity alive all these years... just by continuing to speak a language. It's a nonsense idea, but there are plenty of Irish language enthusiasts who are arrogant and naive enough to believe it. (not to mention insulting enough to suggest it to people's face).

CGI_Livia_Soprano

“Language was used for survival and efficiency of society - a pragmatic tool.”

Nonsense. Utter pseudo-intellectual nonsense.

whisky_galore

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117968069#Comment_117968069

A worn out cliche at this stage.

How does that work in the Americas, Carribean etc? If they haven't got their 'first languages' anymore they're somehow cultureless nonentities? Pure nationalistic herrenvolk snobbery.

Shao Kahn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117969121#Comment_117969121

Nope, it's the truth.

But it makes for a very uncomfortable truth, when you're trying to push the cultural significance of something that our ancestors used mostly as a pragmatic tool to make their lives easier and more efficient.

It's the same in any language. Just because you had Shakespear crafting something aesthetically pleasing out of his language - doesn't mean that the language in and of itself was a piece of art. It was a tool that you could use to make something. It was his talent for crafting words that was impressive, not which language he happened to be using.

This is why it didn't matter that we lost our language and gained a different one. We dropped one useful tool, and picked up another very useful tool. And our cultural identity remained intact.

I don't understand people who want the Irish language completely gone. Not everything needs to be utilitarian. They're often so aggressive too - as bad as the zealous contingent of the Irish speakers whom they complain about. Nobody's making them learn it after school (I actually do agree it shouldn't be mandatory for leaving cert, but neither should maths or English imo).

Fishdoodle

"We dropped one useful tool, and picked up another very useful tool. And our cultural identity remained intact."

Perhaps .... If Homer J. Simpson were a historian.

CGI_Livia_Soprano

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117969169#Comment_117969169

Complete rubbish and a total misunderstanding of the depths and importance of what a language is. A mother singing her sick child to sleep is utilising a tool, is she? Or a lover declaring his love to his betrothed. Or a widow thinking about her late husband, alone in the dark.

This kind of faux-utilitarian so-called “facts and logic” dehumanising nonsense is common amongst the computer programmers who use this forum but it has no basis in reality.

CGI_Livia_Soprano

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117969216#Comment_117969216

I have observed that they want it to be removed from their orbits for two reasons:

1. Mammy and Daddy made them do a boring degree they didn’t want to do in computers and now they are lashing out by insisting that everything should be “logical,” “efficient,” and utilitarian. Like that works in the real world.
2. They were crap in Irish in school and now think of it only as a subject they were bad at. In fact it was probably the only subject they were bad at. Which they resent to this day and take out on Irish speakers who have had nothing to do with the education system.

Upforthematch

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117969100#Comment_117969100

I agree Irish speakers are no discriminated against just because someone doesn't speak to them in Irish.

However, they are discriminated against when the State doesn't speak to them in Irish.

The OP's beef seems to be that the State is at long last doing what the people have wanted for a long time - respect for language rights.