The creeping prominence of the Irish language

Upforthematch

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118180490#Comment_118180490

Not the lifeskill argument again!

This post, Wibbs' post and PeadarCo's post are generally well reasoned posts but they are blinkered and Wibbs comparing Irish to a "dumpy ex", I mean really!

There is the underlying assumption that the Irish person is a native English speaker. It completely bypasses the fact the native Irish speakers exist and that there is a rights issue involved here.

Yes native Irish speakers are a minority, yes they are a shrinking minority and yes they virtually all learn English to fluency inside and outside the Education system but that doesn't take from their fundamental right to function in a society that doesn't ignore their native tongue and our national tongue and doesn't treat them like outsiders in their own country.

This sentence misses the key point very slightly: "People tend to be more obsessed with the status of the language rather than the progression of it".

People are obsessed with the status of the speaker firstly and then the progression of the language. This is why the moderate middle-Irishperson view doesn't want to foist the language through draconian measures but still wants exposure to the language in solidarity with the speaker and perhaps to become a speaker themselves some day.

Hotblack Desiato

Ah yes those people who will do anything for the Irish language, except speak it.

Meanwhile people like me who are honest about our total lack of interest in it are fair game for all sorts of abuse, while getting soaked in our taxes for the priviliege.

Upforthematch

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118178764#Comment_118178764

Jim, I think we need to define progress here.

You have to look at why that graduate mentioned she could speak Irish when she couldn't. What would make so many people do such a illogical thing? The answer is that these people leave school as aspirational Irish speakers.

Learning Irish in the English school system might get a dedicated student to A2 level tops. Learning Irish via the Gaelscoil movement might bring someone in the region of B1.

Neither of these is "fluent" in the context of a work interview (C1 minimum) and the school system will not achieve this and it isn't designed to achieve this.

What it is designed to do is to create connection and provide a foundation for lifetime learning. Most people don't take this up, fine, and that's for many reasons and not all of them are because "it's pointless".

A very common reason for adults taking up Irish classes is so that they can help their children with their Irish homework. Those people aren't perpetuating a "pointless" cycle, they are taking up those classes because they are re-establishing their own connection.

So where is the "progress"? The progress can be measured via output. Here are three examples.

1. Conversations - there is the possibilty to have Irish conversation allthroughout Ireland now, every county has local ciorcal comhra and gaelscoileanna.
2. Cultural output - you will see a Irish language dimension to new cultural / technological developments - it might be small, it might be niche but it's certainly there. Discord servers in Irish, Twitter and other social media in Irish, podcasts in Irish. Notice I'm picking examples that are not state sponsored.
3. Professionalisation - the digital resources in place are excellent for the learner and those who use Irish as a work language. It is another world compared with even 10 years ago.

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118180351#Comment_118180351

Can’t say I ever met a single person that actually disliked the language itself. I’ve met people who resented having to learn it, disagreed with the way it was presented in schools, resented it’s state support etc, but never the actual language itself.

I have on the other hand met several people who actually hate the German language and I’m not terribly excited about speaking it myself either - it sounds superior and arrogant. At one place I regularly got invited to client meetings instead of my boss, on enquiry I was told it was because I speak (Swiss) dialect and my boss was German.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118189069#Comment_118189069

No, not the lifeskill argument again, I was using it to reference something else.

Speakers of the Irish language have the same rights as everyone else - name one right that they don't have - the fact that their language is not the dominant language doesn't change that.

Upforthematch

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118189214#Comment_118189214

I'm sure @deirdremf can give you a list of her experiences as a native speaker but the obvious one I've seen is the right to engage with the state through Irish.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118189239#Comment_118189239

Where is that right not given?

Upforthematch

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118189244#Comment_118189244

There's plenty to look at here. https://www.coimisineir.ie/imscruduithe?lang=EN&year=2020#searchinvestigations. 

But just in case people think Irish is all about negativity and complaints, here is a an excellent article about the really positive contributions that gaelscoileanna make to their communities and the final line sums up the spirit of the Irish language today.

https://www.rte.ie/brainstorm/2021/1116/1260260-gaelscoileanna-gaeilge-language-middle-class-multi-cultural/

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118189321#Comment_118189321

There are four incidents on the list in 2020, most of which seem to be oversights with regard to information not being provided in both langauges. While I agree that the complaints are valid, I'd hardly argue that rights were being denied. Oversights happen, people are human - again, this is an offshoot of one language being the dominant language in terms of useage.

Would be interested to know if the criticisms were acccepted and recommendations were followed.

Strumms

Do you still get bonus marks for doing a leaving cert subject in Irish ? I think that should be considered discriminatory... I think it should be illegal....

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118189506#Comment_118189506

Do you still need Irish to study veterinary science?

Jim2007

“Learning Irish in the English school system might get a dedicated student to A2 level tops.”

I’d agree with you and A2 might be over generous in many cases. And it is way past time that people start asking the obvious - if the objective is to produce young people capable of speaking the national language why is it taking 10+ years to get to a level that would normally be achieved in 2 or 3 years?

There is no reason why we can’t get the standard up to say a B1 or even B2 on leaving school, beyond a refusal to recognize what is being done is a failure and change is needed. If people are willing to accept that an effort of over 10 years produces an A2 as a success story, then there is no hope of progress.

The fact that when I visit Ireland I can have a basic conversation with my two nephews in German or French but not in Irish is just crazy.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118189069#Comment_118189069

I think the vast majority of ordinary citizens support the idea that if a minority of citizens wish to be able to deal with state officials through Irish, that they should be facilitated. That is a reasonable proposition.

But that is not the reality. The combination of the stated primacy of Irish in the constitution and the Official Languages Act 2003 has contrived a situation where Irish must come FIRST on any public signage/ communication and must be as EQUALLY prominent. That is what is ridiculous and the tail wagging the dog. What's more, it's a false and dishonest statement of the reality of Irish usage in the state and does the language a disservice.

dubhthach

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118189597#Comment_118189597

Do you still need to study Shakespeare to matriculate to Computer Science?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118190762#Comment_118190762

No idea, why?

Are you saying that it should be?

Upforthematch

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118190147#Comment_118190147

Why are you against Irish being equally prominent to English on a sign?

Should the native Irish speaker have to squint to see what's on it in your opinion?

Upforthematch

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118189446#Comment_118189446

To be fair, things have improved but in many cases starting from a low base. Go back through the years on that website or back 15 years ago and you would notice some difference.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118193421#Comment_118193421

So, progress then :)

But again, it's not really a rights issue.

deirdremf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118167418#Comment_118167418

There are quite a few multidenominational Gaelscoileanna now, but generally speaking they still do some religion.

I'm not aware of any non-denominational schools of any type in the country, though some of the multidenominational schools might come close - flying under the radar so to speak.

An Foras Pátrúnachta, which runs the greatest number of Gaelscoileanna, used to be run by a rightwing catholic clique, but either they were replaced or they came to see the light .i. that the government wasn't going to approve any new catholic schools, because in the last several years all their new schools have been multidenominational, afaik.

deirdremf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118173040#Comment_118173040

Teaching Irish in schools won't and hasn't stopped its decline. Its probably slowed the decline.

It certainly slowed its decline in the Gaeltacht, and even reversed the decline in a few small areas. However, the pressures (not just social pressures) didn't disappear with independence.

Outside of the Gaeltacht however, teaching Irish in our schools has certainly reversed the decline, and there are now Irish speakers in every parish in the State if not in the whole country. It is certainly true that many of them do not speak Irish on a daily basis, but this does not change the fact that they are Irish speakers.

The Gaelscoil movement produces several thousand new speakers each year, so I think we can call it a success, while the various Irish-language media give people who do not have a network in their locality a way of participating in the Irish-language community when they wish.

deirdremf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118175380#Comment_118175380

Withdraw all state supports and enabling legislation and let it thrive

So, so funny!

deirdremf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118177028#Comment_118177028

West Britain is a term invented by the English who ruled Ireland in the 19th century, and has ever since been applied to their cultural heirs, some of them actual descendants. The same type of person in Scotland called the country they lived in North Britain.

Don't blame us if some of us use your own term to refer to you.

deirdremf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118177430#Comment_118177430

Manly because politicians don't do anything unless a lot of pressure is put on them first. Not even Ó Cuív.

deirdremf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118189244#Comment_118189244

Oh, we certainly have the right to engage with the State through Irish.

The State and its various branches however ignore us, and reply in a different language - which means that in fact our right doesn't in reality exist because there is no mechanism to ensure that the response will be available in Irish with no ifs, buts or at some later dates.

I gave up making complaints to the Coimisinéir Teanga because he does not have the power to enforce compliance - or because in certain cases where he has the power he just gave up because he couldn't be bothered. He stated this (not so graphically) in one of his reports.

Evade

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118194885#Comment_118194885

So which is it, non Irish speakers have been trying to stamp out Irish for generations or they've been putting pressure on politicians to expand the use of Irish?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118194927#Comment_118194927

When you say, "there is no mechanism to ensure that the response will be available in Irish with no ifs, buts or at some later dates", can you elaborate on this?

Is it a case of services not provided or complaints not being followed up? Or not being able to conduct dealings at hospitals, police stations (non emergencies), post offices, etc., with clerks/officers in Irish?

Are you looking for the ability to deal with the State in the language of your choice, or any State employee?

PeadarCo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118194833#Comment_118194833

The thing is when you look at the evidence Gaelscoils don't produce that many active Irish language speakers. They produce people capable of speaking Irish but that's not much different than schools who teach primarily through English. A substantial portion of those students are capable of speaking Irish at the end of their time in school but don't become active speakers. The constant decline in active speakers is a testament to that.People in Ireland blame the education system for their lack of Irish because its an answer that offends the least amount of people.

Societal pressures ie jobs, Internet, social media, etc mean that practically none of the students with any degree of fluency in Irish will continue to speak the language in later life. Unless you are emotionally attached to the language there unfortunately is no reason to speak the Irish language in Ireland. Pretty much every external factor encourages a person to speak English. Again the decline of Irish in Gaeltacht areas is testament to that. The main benefit of teaching Irish and Gaelscoils is the jobs that it provides Irish speakers that let them work through Irish. It's also the main benefit of the different government bodies set up to support the language its jobs that can be done through Irish. Again the societal pressures that exist means that it's rare to hear Irish spoken in a work setting outside these jobs. Unless you want to ban English and close Ireland off from the outside world similar to North Korea that's not going to change anytime soon.

whisky_galore

Excellent post. Gaelscoil taught Irish seems to evaporate after all the final exams are done.

"People in Ireland blame the education system for their lack of Irish because its an answer that offends the least amount of people."

This is so true.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118173040#Comment_118173040

The point I'm trying to make is this - Irish has not yet become a fully functional official language outside of the Gaeltacht and this might explain why people find it so difficult to learn. The Gaelscoil movement is proof that it's improving but we are not there yet.

The biggest obstacle facing the country now is establishing secondary Irish speaking schools in English speaking areas. Once there is a solution for that, then English speaking areas of Ireland will become more in line with the Gaeltacht.

nialler1978

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117968643#Comment_117968643

Is there any other country in the world where their citizens think so little of their first language.

Upforthematch

@PeadarCo

Where is the evidence for this statement?

"The thing is when you look at the evidence Gaelscoils don't produce that many active Irish language speakers. They produce people capable of speaking Irish but that's not much different than schools who teach primarily through English"

There is a world of difference between the level of and exposure to Irish that students leaving gaelscoileanna receive compared to English speaking schools. "Not much different", hardly. More people testify that they leave schools unable to speak a word of Irish, even though that is exaggeration they do not leave school as "speakers".

Upforthematch

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118195642#Comment_118195642

But many people do think a lot of the Irish language. They just don't/can't speak it though to the chargrin of anti-crowd.

People who can speak Irish in my experience are open and tolerant because they are all dual language speakers already. They have had to learn a second language be it Irish or English and know that learning languages isn't easy. They understand that everyone has their own level, that's why even the cúpla focal are welcome. It's solidarity, it's community.

Wibbs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118194869#Comment_118194869

On the one hand we have some of the "antis" with a superiority/inferiority complex who often appear to have an apoplectic fit bordering on neurosis over the mere sight of a sign in Irish, on the other we have some of the "pros" with a superiority/inferiority complex who often appear to be culshie chuckies for the Cause. Both have chips on their shoulders, but I thank both for reinforcing my stereotypes.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118195642#Comment_118195642

IMHO both of you are labouring under the delusion that Irish is our first language. Oh but it's in law and the constitution! So is God and many if not most don't believe in that beyond tokenistic lip service either. It's clearly not for the majority of Irish people. If it were we wouldn't be having anything like this debate. We don't debate the losses or gains of English as a language. We don't have to because for better or worse it is our "first" language. Irish is a "foreign" language for most. We can debate the educational system or the impractical daftness of a year zero approach, but until we start teaching it like the "foreign" language it is for the majority we're on a hiding to nowhere.

Wibbs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118194927#Comment_118194927

On the one hand it's been claimed that Irish is the second most spoken language in the country, on the other we have state bodies ignoring Irish speakers or replying in english because of an apparent lack of Irish speakers among their number. Schrödinger's language. Though I believe your experience far more.

deirdremf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118195758#Comment_118195758

Peadar and his ilk are not really in a position to know how much Irish is used, and by whom.

I know quite a few people who learnt Irish as a second language in a Gaelscoil and who are now fluent speakers. I know many dozens - in fact probably several hundred people from all over Ireland - with English as their first language who always speak to me in Irish when we meet. There is a large network of people like this, and many of them don't have much opportunity to speak Irish in their daily lives.

They watch Irish-language TV, listen to Irish-language radio, read Irish on the internet, participate in Irish-language fora on the Internet. But because they don't have a local network of speakers the official stats don't capture them.

PeadarCo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118195758#Comment_118195758

The census figures, any report that actually looks at the number of active Irish speakers, the decline of Gaeltachts, the complaints from Irish language speakers about the challenges faced when trying to access services through Irish. If the Irish education system on its own was good a producing active Irish language speakers we wouldn't be having this discussion.

https://www.irishcentral.com/culture/education/how-much-irish-is-spoken-in-ireland

Using this link there were about 73k active daily Irish speakers in 2016. That's a rough estimate even if it's off by a factor of 2 or 3 it won't change my point

Gaelscoils and more broadly the education system from my point of view do produce students who are capable of conversing in Ireland. In 2021 about 61k odd did the leaving cert. 24,725 did honours Irish. About 29% got a H2 and above. So that's 7,145 students(see the state examinations statistics page and the excel file you can download. I am being conservative when I assume that everyone who gets that is capable of at least talking in Irish when leaving school particularly with the increased weighting of the oral. 10 years of that gives you about 70,000 people speaking Irish. In 2016 there were only roughly that many people speaking Irish full stop daily. The number of daily Irish language speakers is not consistent with the number of people you would expect given the leaving cert results from the last 10 years never mind 50 years. Again if everyone who is capable of speaking Irish to some degree spoke Irish we would be having this discussion in Irish. The fact boards an Irish based forum mandates English outside specialist language forums tell you a lot.

The biggest challenge for the Irish language is that you can have the best language teaching going but it won't make much difference. The minute students leave the classroom they are bombarded by wealth of English language media and other societal pressures that render the teaching in schools largely futile. I'm not blaming the Irish language, speakers, teachers etc. But the language is competing with a language that has over a billion speakers between native and non native speakers. That provides a wealth of information and utility in the language that only a small handful of languages can come anywhere close to matching. Look at Wikipedia and the number of articles in English versus any other language.

Any plan to promote Irish has to factor in the challenge it is up against. Pretending Irish is the native language of Ireland and all Irish people have some magical ability and or desire to actually speak the language on a regular basis is actively damaging and killing the language. That attitude is one of the reasons the language has declined because the actual speakers of Irish are not supported.

deirdremf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118196078#Comment_118196078

Wibbs, the State is not the people. It is an organisation (or more correctly a collection of organisations), and it very often seems that like many organisations its main aim is to ensure its continuing existence; an organisation that stretches back far beyond the actual foundation of the State in its current format.

It would be very foolish to believe that the state is a neutral body (or set of bodies), and it would be a huge mistake to think that the state is benevolent or that it has our best interests at heart. We have often seen the state fight tooth and nail all the way through the courts in order to deny some individual or other what seems to anyone with an ounce of empathy a basic right - very often this happens in the field of healthcare.

I often wonder why this happens - is it because the state in the 18th and 19th centuries saw the native population as an enemy to be controlled? Have the basic tenets of that pre-independence state been unconsciously assumed by our current state? Is this why Ireland is probably the most centralised state in Europe?

In brief, in my opinion it's not a question of how much Irish is spoken by the people of Ireland - this is irrelevant to the various organisations that form the state. The state is simply disinterested when it is not actively hostile, in much the same way that the state has always been hostile to a good public healthcare system for the whole population, that we have never had a good system of public transport, that education (like health) was left in the hands of the various churches ... the list goes on. It's not just the Irish language.

PeadarCo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118195633#Comment_118195633

The problem with this idea is that you continue to ignore the pressures to speak pretty much any language but Irish in Ireland. Its ideas like this that are killing the Irish language. Had the state a hundred years ago reconciled itself to reality that Ireland was fundamentally an English speaking country and focused on supporting Gaeltachts the language would be in better shape.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118197563#Comment_118197563

You didn't mention another 70,000+ students graduated from Gaelscoils between 2000-2021. On top of that, another 1,000,000+ are learning Irish on Duolingo- half of them are outside of Ireland.

You fail to understand that for an Irish speaker to speak Irish there needs to be another speaker to understand what they're saying.

The times for learning Irish have never been better.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118197612#Comment_118197612

I already suggested English should be optional in schools in favor of other languages - including Irish.

The Gaelscoils are proof there is still an enormous interest in learning Irish. Whether anglophones like it or not, there are people in Ireland who are going to excercise their right to speak Irish.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118197563#Comment_118197563

AT THIS point, I disagree slightly. Good teachers encourage and inspire students, and if you get good teachers teaching Irish, you'll get more people speaking it after the finish school.

The issue isn't that people can't is that they choose not to.

PeadarCo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118197650#Comment_118197650

You do realise that your post just backs up my point even further. If there are so many active Irish speakers why can Irish language speakers not access basic services through Irish. That's government services never mind the private sector which is even worse for Irish language provision. A huge amount of companies don't even give the option of selecting Irish as a second language on their online application forms. I'd go even further if there were actually 1 million active Irish language speakers, Irish language support would be unnecessary but we all know that's not the case.

I'm broadly in favour of supporting the Irish language providing those supports are actually effective and the targets set are realistic. But effective language support and realistic targets are the complete opposite of what has happened over the last 100 plus years. Again your post is a perfect example of why Irish language speakers are having difficulty accessing services through Irish. There seems to be an obsession with focusing on people who know a bit of Irish but never speak it instead of actually supporting those that do regularly speak it.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118197748#Comment_118197748

Maybe because Irish is no longer a requirement to work in the civil service. It was removed from the civil service in the 70s and from the Gardai in 2005. The government needs to reverse this

PeadarCo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118197747#Comment_118197747

I appreciate your point and I'd agree and disagree with you. On an individual level top quality teaching does make a difference. So I'd agree you there. However on a broad population level I don't think the best teaching going would make a significant difference to the number of Irish speakers. If you do anything requires interaction with people outside Ireland you are forced to use English. I think even the best teaching going would face an impossible task given the strength of English language ecosystem when compared to the Irish language ecosystem. However I agree with you it is unfair to say it would make no difference just not a significant difference.

Upforthematch

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118196078#Comment_118196078

Schrödinger's language

Interesting quote considering he moved to Dublin to take a leading role in the Dublin Institute of Advanced Studies.

I searched to see whether Schrödinger tried to learn Irish while in Dublin and it appears he did according to this tweet.

Not Schrödinger's language after all, but perhaps this can be a source of consolation to generations of teenagers that have tried to grapple with Gaeilge!!

If he had the digital resources that are freely available today, I think he would have had a much better go of it.

https://twitter.com/phalpern/status/1229846005706829826

Upforthematch

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118197563#Comment_118197563

Thanks @PeadarCo but that information isn't focused on the Gaelscoileanna which were the particular target of the quote and your previous posts.

A lot of your later comments are very "macro"; whether there are 10m or a billion English speakers or English pages on Wikipedia has little bearing on the fact that the local shopkeeper or state service will only do business with you in English.

I also don't agree with the either/or argument you make. Yes actual speakers are not supported enough and yes most people don't desire to speak Irish on a regular basis but where is the causal link? Both groups have received support and it is by supporting both groups that Irish is understood as one of the two languages of Ireland even amongst many of those who have no engagement with Irish.

The key point you make is that Irish is up against a wall of English cultural influence. As it was 100 years ago so it is today, those fundamentals haven't changed. The fact that boards.ie is operating via English means squat. I'm a native English speaker but have also become an Irish speaker, it isn't either/or.

Our last interaction a few weeks ago inspired me to go and buy the book I was talking to you about "Labhairt na Gaeilge dúshláin agus réitigh", Speaking Irish, challenges and solutions. https://www.siopaleabhar.com/en/product/labhairt-na-gaeilge-dushlain-is-reitigh/

Haven't read it all yet but it's obvious those cultural barriers caused by the monoglot Anglo culture affect those who have chosen to study Irish at university. I mean if these people find it difficult to speak Irish outside of the classroom and they will graduate with a degree in Irish, I think you're being very harsh on leaving certificate students!!

Just as information, two solutions the author mentions are a move to small group work and oral presentation as the central means of assessment of Irish at university level (quite a shift away from the 'pile 'em high' approach) and the need for social skill development for "Irish as a second language" university learners. The "embarassment of getting it wrong" cripples the second language learner in social settings and the university needs to have 'recreation groups' built into their core programme to help those learners break through that barrier.

Big ask to be honest in a cut-back culture at third level, nevermind second level.

deirdremf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118197748#Comment_118197748

If there are so many active Irish speakers why can Irish language speakers not access basic services through Irish. That's government services

In post 1139, I explained that the State is not the people. In fact, I am of the opinion that the Irish state is generally antipathetic to the people of Ireland, and not only Irish speakers.

In relation to this particular part of your post above, the reason that Irish speakers cannot access basic services through Irish is because the various arms of the State are not organised to provide services through Irish.

If they were, they would employ people to provide such services, and they would train employees to the required standard - just as they currently do in relation to the English-language services that are available today.

This has nothing to do with the number of Irish speakers employed by the State. Unless they are specifically employed to do XYZ (provide a service through Irish in this case) then XYZ will not be done.

For instance, some years back an Irish friend of mine lived in Holland. In fact she lived there long enough to become fluent in Dutch. At work one day, a colleague approached her, and asked her to translate a document into English for him. Now she wasn't employed as a translator, and refused, as was her right.

Similarly in any job - if you have a job description, you are unlikely to take on work outside of that, barring the occasional favour to a friend or a boss that might give you a leg up. Or would you expect the guy you call to clean your drains also to repair your car?

Wibbs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118197575#Comment_118197575

I'd largely agree with you on this, though Ireland is not alone in this, that's for sure. Governments almost by their very nature are not benevolent, though things have certainly improved in the west on that score over the last century. One issue with democracy is the politicans are concerned with the next vote and act accordingly, though there aren't any good alternatives.

As for being the most centralised. France is worse as is the UK. In our case it's more down to having a much smaller population and one of the lowest population densities in Europe. Dublin having the greatest concentration at what nearly two million out of five? One driven by a large rural exodus to it in the middle of the last century. We left healthcare and education and other services in the hands of NGO's and the church because at the foundation of the state we were potless and couldn't afford to take those under the public wing. We got used to that. Unfortunately.

Wibbs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118197807#Comment_118197807

The removal of the requirement in the civil service is a good example of our attitudes to the language. Near overnight with a few holdouts the civil service workers reverted to english. And these were people who could already speak the language. It also reduced their recruitment base.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118197811#Comment_118197811

It's not just about practicallity, though it'salso about expression and the one thing that really seems absent from education is expresion/