The creeping prominence of the Irish language

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118199138#Comment_118199138

We left healthcare and education and other services in the hands of NGO's and the church because at the foundation of the state we were potless and couldn't afford to take those under the public wing.

This is a commonly held myth, but it is a myth. Education and health were paid for by taxpayers and ratepayers, as they had been long before the establishment of this state (where did you think the term "national school" came from?)

Churches pay not a cent and never did, sites for schools were usually donated/coerced from local landowners, the state paid for the building costs and the teachers' salaries just as they do today.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118197807#Comment_118197807

Irish is irrelevant to 99.9% of non-teaching public sector jobs. Imposing a requirement to obtain a job which is not actually necessary to perform that job is discrimination, and illegal.

The last thing we need in this country is to turn the public sector into the plaything of the language lobby, the OLA is bad enough in terms of wasting public money.

Wibbs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118199648#Comment_118199648

To be fair it's a little more complex than that. For a start at the foundation of this state the tax and ratepayers revenue was significantly lower than British revenues from that source. We were a poor, undereducated rural agrarian society with bugger all industry save for a region in the north east that was lost under partition. While as you note yes the Irish people through their government certainly supported health and education and other social services through the usual routes, moral, operational and yes quite a bit of economic responsibility for them was offloaded onto the church and charities/NGOs(which were almost entirely church based and controlled). Even the shell game of the Irish sweepstakes was supported by the church. We nationalised things like uitilities and they had to be paid for. They were also a large employer and route to education and social mobility via the clergy. It's not that long ago that the rural family was seen as a success if it had a son in the Guards, another son or daughter in the clergy and another in the civil service(a nurse for bonus points, also controlled by the church). One could even argue that the requirement for Irish in the civil service declined because it became an increasingly urban and suburban entity as our fortunes improved and the number of native rural Irish speakers declined. The church was also one of the few routes to education and social mobility for Irish women. It's no coincidence that as we became richer as a nation the power of the church declined, but we are certainly left with the echoes of that past. The control they have over schools a big one. The overabundance of Irish NGO's another.

whisky_galore

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118197807#Comment_118197807

I think most people would rather an effective police force that responds to their needs in times of distress, recruits the best people from all backgrounds and overseas talent rather than a handful of people for language enthusiasts to have a chat with.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118193406#Comment_118193406

For the very obvious and simple reason that it does not reflect the reality of language use in the state. We should put Polish in equal prominence on public signage as well, if we are to be guided by use. Followed closely by several other languages. Is that a good enough reason??

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118198647#Comment_118198647

'For instance, some years back an Irish friend of mine lived in Holland. In fact she lived there long enough to become fluent in Dutch. At work one day, a colleague approached her, and asked her to translate a document into English for him. Now she wasn't employed as a translator, and refused, as was her right.

Similarly in any job - if you have a job description, you are unlikely to take on work outside of that, barring the occasional favour to a friend or a boss that might give you a leg up.'

Not the sort of employee I'd have any use for. At all.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118200440#Comment_118200440

You're a good example of someone who hasn't moved with the times. I mentioned Duolingo in my previous post. There are over one million Irish learners on this app - over half of these are outside the country. Don't you think it would be nice if a Garda had at least basic Irish in case a tourist speaks to him?

Upforthematch

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118203169#Comment_118203169

No, it's not. Polish isn't an official language here.

The logic is simple

• Offical languages should be on official signs
• Irish is an official language
• Irish should be on the sign

Your argument was that Irish should be in smaller writing than English on the sign. What sort of statement would that make? Why should the Irish speaker have to squint to read the sign?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118203876#Comment_118203876

While I agree with you regard to Irish being obvious rather than Polish, I'd argue that they should be the same size. Why should anyone - English speaker or Irish speaker - have to squint? We're talking roadsigns aimed at drivers, here!!

Evade

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118203940#Comment_118203940

It also brings into question why Gaeltacht areas are exempt from having English on their signs.

Evade

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118203349#Comment_118203349

They could just ask in English.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118204019#Comment_118204019

As far as I know, there is no requirement to have any roadsign in both languages om the basis that the cnostitutions states that provision can be made for sole use of either language in article 8.3. Open to correction on this, but I can't find anything elsewhere.

Evade

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118204047#Comment_118204047

Section 9 part 3 of the 2003 languages act is about government bodies informing the public via text, which roadsigns seem to fall under, and they can do so in Irish alone or both English and Irish. But if safety for the hypothetical person who cannot read English as well as Irish is a concern the roadsigns in Gaeltacht areas would seem to be dangerous for most of the population.

whisky_galore

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118203349#Comment_118203349

It would be 'nice' if the guards had a dance troupe or a synchronised swimming team too...'Nice' is not really essential in terms of what guards are supposed to do.

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118195633#Comment_118195633

Of course you ‘are not there yet’, it’s been the best of a hundred years trying and the bitter truth is you are further away not closer! Forty years ago when I had some professional involvement with Irish speaking schools around the country, it was the same story and today some of them don’t even exist!

We either pretend that we are making great progress or we face facts and try to figure out where we are going wrong and try to correct it. I don’t have much hope for it as it’s easier to pretend everything thing is going swimmingly and in a 100 years time Irish will have gone the way of Scottish Gaelic.

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118197650#Comment_118197650

And all of those people most likely learned another foreign language as well, so are you now going to claim the country is an actively French speaking or what ever , country as well???

A long time ago when I was a kid I could go into the village shop and buy the couple sweets in Irish. Today a change, the Irish speakers are dead and gone and despite all the efforts the young people around the village struggle to speak with you. Wake up to reality before it’s too late.

And your last sentence was a great laugh! Sixty years ago there were Irish clubs of some sort peppered around the country parishes and that is gone too.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118204087#Comment_118204087

Maybe because the Gaeltecht don't want tourists?

Anyway, this seems to be happening in both directions. People can't be arsed - not something I personally would lose sleep over either way.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118194781#Comment_118194781

I was closely familiar with a handful of Educate Together schools in the 2000s. They did stuff to let the pupils know about religious faith systems, but their underlying ethos was atheist/humanist. They were all from among the original handful of schools that existed back in the 1990s - and all from the liberal heartlands of the capital (ah, no cheantar féin - no place like yer own place).

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118194869#Comment_118194869

WADR, I'm a West Brit, or at least closer to being one than a lot of the noisy Anglos contributing to this thread - and if it's all the same to yiz all I'm quite proud of it. The noisy Anglos are the only ones bandying about the West Brit term. Insecure much?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118209102#Comment_118209102

And the noisy Gael is the only lableing people who don't agree with them as "noisy anglos" - insecure much? :)

whisky_galore

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118209825#Comment_118209825

I prefer the term Gaelgoir Taliban :D

gormdubhgorm

Interesting newspaper article here, very relevant to this thread.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/oireachtas-hears-criticisms-of-proposals-for-leaving-cert-irish-1.4736788

Propoosed was Teanga 1 Level Irish language syllabus for Irish medium schools

Plus an easier -

Teanga 2 syllabus for English medium schools.

-

Which is on reflection, is a clever way of diluting the status of Irish IMO. As is pointed out in the article that Irish medium schools would have to do more work for the same Leaving Cert points.

It seems like a very devious plan. As a first glance it seems OK. But dig a little deeper, and it’s intent is clear.

Evade

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118214120#Comment_118214120

The obvious solution if they really did want to implement something like that is to make the more difficult exam an additional one.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118190147#Comment_118190147

You would need to change the constitution which makes Irish the first language.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118210521#Comment_118210521

No you don't. When I like a phrase or saying I at least make a bit of an effort to learn how to spell it properly. Half measures are for messers.

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118214120#Comment_118214120

There is an EU objective that all citizens should speak three languages of the EU at least at A2. Irish is one of our three, we should be using the standard framework which means a single assessment system. This means in their mother language you expect kids to be achieving B2/C1 and in the other language at least A2. For apprenticeship and everyday work you’d expect people to achieve a B1 in the working language and for third level at least C1 but more likely a C2 in the language of instruction.

If you look at countries like Switzerland or Belgium or even the EU itself, public servants are expecting to have two languages at B1, meaning a full working knowledge. We are not even remotely close to that although on paper the money and effort involved should generate it.

This proposal seems like stacking the deck to celebrate an other epic failure.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118172664#Comment_118172664

This is simply not true.

Irish is the 3rd most popular spoken language in the country, after English and Polish. Our growing multi-culturalism will mean in the years to come it will drop down the pecking order.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118214150#Comment_118214150

If you want to go down that road, "Anglos" is a proper noun and should be capitalised.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118214120#Comment_118214120

Don't really see the point of the proposal, but don't see how it will dilute the status of the language either.

One interesting paragraph:

Mr de Spáinn said there was an opportunity to ensure that students reach a standard where they could use their Irish in a professional setting. He said the Irish syllabus should be aligned with the Common European Framework of Reference for Languages (CEFRL).

I'd argue that it will have no effect on the 'use of their Irish in a professional setting' unless there is someone there to request it (although I'd be in favour of the proposal).

Totally agree within on the second proposal - assuming this will place more emphasis on comprehension and ability them literature.

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118214515#Comment_118214515

If they moved to the common framework where the emphasis would be on getting functional yes l say it is possible, but that would require acknowledgment that the current approach is not working…. So I don’t see it happening.

Here in the German speaking part of Switzerland, they don’t actually speak German, but Germanic dialects most of which will not be understood by German speakers. So German is presented the same as any other foreign language, with an emphasis on being functional. And it works! There is no reason it could not work for Irish too, beyond a willingness to change.

dubhthach

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118214483#Comment_118214483

Likewise "Béarloirí"

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118214959#Comment_118214959

Genau.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118214131#Comment_118214131

Yes, that was point somewhere near the top of this thread. The constitution is out of whack with the linguistic reality of this Republic.

Hotblack Desiato

It's out of whack with a hell of a lot of other things too, rip it up and start again.

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118216200#Comment_118216200

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118216323#Comment_118216323

Not to derail the thread but it is just NOT true that the constitution is ‘out of whack’. For the most part it has stood the test of time. It is very robust considering it was written in 1937. It also gives a certain amount of leeway in its interpretation by the judiciary. If society is still not happy with aspects of it. The mechanism of constitutional referendum is there for a reason. I would argue that the Irish constitution is one of the most robust and cleverly written documents of its kind.

I have yet to meet/ hear of anyone who has studied the Irish constitution and it’s related mechanisms in any detail, that is not in awe that such foresight was given in its design in 1937.

https://www.thejournal.ie/readme/the-constitution-has-served-us-well-for-the-most-part-3702649-Nov2017/?amp=1

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/diarmaid-ferriter-irish-constitution-stands-the-test-of-time-1.3146769

Hotblack Desiato

Practically impossible to get an amendment put to the people unless the government propose it. Plenty of outdated nonsense in there e.g. that we are obliged to worship 'god', and that power derives not from the people but from this 'god'. A woman's place is in the home, not to forget the ludicrous assertion that Irish is the primary language of the people when it is plainly not and has not been for centuries.

You might think all of this aspirational stuff has no real world effect, but quite a few laws had to be amended because of errors in the Irish text which took precedence (i.e. TDs did not understand what they were actually voting for), and the constitution protects the assets of religious orders despite their history of abuse. When we have a referendum most people literally don't understand what they're voting on, because what they're really voting on is not the English text of an amendment but the Irish text. It's a ludicrous situation.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118217474#Comment_118217474

Only because it was dragged into modernity kicking and screaming and forced to drop the sexist and homophobic elements (and has it even gotten round to telling the RCC to **** off yet?)

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118217696#Comment_118217696

Not true, read the articles above it was very modern for it's time. What you stated is a perpetuated myth about BnaE. You are obviously not well versed on the subject.

The RCC wanted an all catholic constitution. They did not get it. In the Irish constitution had provision for all religion in A44.2. A44.2.1. A44.2.2, A44.2.3., A44.2.4.,  A44.2.5, and  A44.2.6.Basic constitutional law stuff (in the fundamental rights area - the RCC were not happy)

A44.2.1 - Freedom of conscience and the free profession and practice of religion are, subject to public order and morality, guaranteed to every citizen.

A44.2.2. The State guarantees not to endow any religion.

A44 2.3. The State shall not impose any disabilities or make any discrimination on the ground of religious profession, belief or status.

A44 2. 4 Legislation providing State aid for schools shall not discriminate between schools under the management of different religious denominations, nor be such as to affect prejudicially the right of any child to attend a school receiving public money without attending religious instruction at that school.

A44 2.5. Every religious denomination shall have the right to manage its own affairs, own, acquire and administer property, movable and immovable, and maintain institutions for religious or charitable purposes.

A44 2.6. The property of any religious denomination or any educational institution shall not be diverted save for necessary works of public utility and on payment of compensation.

--

At least if you are going to make generalised statements without any facts you should add 'In my opinion'. Otherwise ask someone more knowledgeable on the subject, or else you will sound silly.

--

Returning to the issue at hand. You seem to imply there is a grave problem with article 8 of the constitution and the Irish language.

If there was a groundswell of support for its removal, why has it not happened? Surely, the people would vote in politicians on the basis of the issue?

I think you will just have to accept that you are in the minority on the Irish language issue, and have to accept the will of the majority.

You should contact your local TD's and see if there is any interest in the removal of Article 8.

From a more realistic standpoint. You must realise that the Irish constitution is not just a piece of legislation. It is a legal document that encapsulates the aspirations and intangible feelings those who enacted it.

As the time of writing the majority of the Irish people have some basic functional Irish. Also the majority of the Irish people would not like to see the Irish language lost.

https://www.esri.ie/system/files/publications/BKMNEXT294_Vol%201.pdf

See above - (ESRI 2015) 'In the Republic, almost two-thirds (64 per cent) believe that Ireland would lose its identity without the Irish language.'

Until that changes - you and small cohort of like minded people are just the oddballs in the corner howling at the moon.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118217978#Comment_118217978

I'm not saying it wasn't wegen it was written in saying it did but stand the test of time going forward.

The fact that it still ranks the languages proves my point.

Upforthematch

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118216200#Comment_118216200

Was the linguistic reality of the republic all that different in 1937? Irish was by far a minority language then and it is now.

What hasn't changed is the aspiration of the people to retain and reclaim their language, however.

It has been admitted by several contributors on this thread that any amendment to the constitution to reduce the status of Irish would not pass. If contributors to this thread want to join forces with Kevin Myers and make an issue of it though, go ahead, you know what to do, but don't use the smoke screen of "an outdated constitution" to do so.

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118218264#Comment_118218264

You don't seem to understand my point. If the majority of the Irish people really wanted Article 8 amended or removed, it would have been done so by now.

--

Article 8

(1) The Irish language as the national language is the first official language.

(2) The English language is recognised as a second official language.

(3) Provision may, however, be made by law for the exclusive use of either of the said languages for any one or more official purposes, either throughout the State or in any part thereof.

--

The fact is the majority of the Irish people see the Irish Language as part of the Irish identity. (as per the ESRI article 2015 I linked earlier).

https://www.esri.ie/system/files/publications/BKMNEXT294_Vol%201.pdf

See above - (ESRI 2015) 'In the Republic, almost two-thirds (64 per cent) believe that Ireland would lose its identity without the Irish language.'

--

The fact that the status of the Irish language has remained as such in BnaE it is an indicator it is what the people want. Which is why it has stood the test of time. Which proves the majority of people have nothing against Article 8 as it currently stands.

So it does not prove your point, it in fact contradicts it. As it shows your viewpoint against the Irish language is a MINORITY viewpoint not one of the MAJORITY.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118218449#Comment_118218449

That wasn't you point. Your post was that the Constitution - in it's entirety - was robust and stood the test of time. At least, that's what you said it was.

I have no opinion on Article 8 one way or the other, but you can't say a statement proves something simply because the opposite has never been proven. That's a paradox.

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118218617#Comment_118218617

You need to re read my posts and perhaps look at the links. I never once said in ‘its entirety’ I believe that is called you moving the goalposts. I also had to put you right about your incorrect assumptions re the Roman Catholic Chirch and the Irish constitution. Showing you article 44.2. And demonstrating to you that BnaE was in fact very progressive for its time and gave a lot of wiggle room. What I did say was it was very well written robust allied to judicial interpretation and the referendum mechanism etc. It was designed to be robust and have flexibility along with these mechanisms.

Also my point is the constitution represents what the majority of Irish society think.

Which as I mentioned that losing the Irish language would mean losing part of Ireland’s indentity to most in Ireland (ESRI 2015) which is why article 8 has remained a protection and aspiration for the Irish language until now.

Maybe you don’t understand the point because it is the third time I have said it.

I have yet to be aware of a large groundswell of support in Irish society to change Article 8. Have you??

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118217671#Comment_118217671

I have a number of issues with the above post. If enough like minded people vote in a government who do not like the current status of the Irish language. Then a referendum can be called. That is how democracy works. It depends on public opinion.

It does not say you are 'obliged' to worship God.

A44.1 'The State acknowledges that the homage of public worship is due to Almighty God. It shall hold His Name in reverence, and shall respect and honour religion.'

And in A44.2.1 'The State guarantees not to endow any religion.'

--

Nowhere does it say that you are 'obliged' to worship God or anything to that effect. There is in fact a freedom of religion. Much as many constitutions around the world.

But you are not completely correct that it states that power of the government derives 'from God'.

Article 6 states -

 'All powers of government, legislative, executive and judicial, derive, under God, from the people, whose right it is to designate the rulers of the State and, in final appeal, to decide all questions of national policy, according to the requirements of the common good.'

So that is 'under God' NOT 'from God' it is from the people.

The woman's place is in the home comment is a bit of conflation.

What it actually says in A41.2.2

'The State shall, therefore, endeavour to ensure that mothers shall not be obliged by economic necessity to engage in labour to the neglect of their duties in the home.'

Many a family today have mothers who wish not to have to work - but they have no choice due to economic necessity, and feel guilty neglecting their children. So there is some relevance to today's lifestyles when read in context. Rent prices, cost of living and so on.

You touch on the issue of Judicial interpretation of legislation that happens in any language. And happens when only the English language is considered. There are various methods of judicial statutory interpretation where there is an ambiguity in legislation.

In the EU despite Multiple languages been used. And some have argued that it assists the ECJ in Statutory interpretation.

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=998167

'To the extent that the goal of the court is to construe statutes to effectuate the intent of the legislature and to further the goals of the enacted directive or regulation, the existence of so many versions of the law makes this task easier.'

Also by the way - EU law takes precedence over Irish law!

https://www.europarl.europa.eu/factsheets/en/sheet/142/language-policy

And the language policy of the EU is linguistic diversity - and whether you like it or not. Ireland is a member of the EU.

In 2004 Irish was made an official language of the EU.

https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/official-languages-of-the-european-union.html

Strumms

irish while might be referred to as the 1st language in the constitution...actually isn’t remotely close to being the first language in practice in the state...

according to the 2016 census...

99% of people here speak fluent English.

40% of people here speak (some) Irish

1.7% of people speak Irish daily

the creeping prominence is to do with a more aggressive promotion and advocacy of the language....and greater investment in it to boot....

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118218449#Comment_118218449

It could just as easily mean they are indifferent to it. These articles have no impact on most people’s life hence your analysis is just an option.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118217474#Comment_118217474

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118219052#Comment_118219052

No, you need to te read the first post quoted above. Links either proves what you're saying or are irrelevant.

And again you can't say a statement proves something (people are happy with article 8) simply because the opposite has never been proven. That's a paradox.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118219091#Comment_118219091

Indeed it has been crowbarred in, courtesy of the Official Languages Act, courtesy of an aspirational constitution. Depending on your view on it, it's either a successful ploy by Irish language lobbyists campaigners or an costly exercise in national self delusion.

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118219146#Comment_118219146

Your posts thus far have proven you have not correctly read my responses and/or are deliberately trying to twist them. If you are not willing to read them fine. But it makes the point of debate a song and when only one person actually reads what the other has said. So far you have displayed a clear lack of knowledge in your last few posts. Unsuccessfully attempted to twist my posts - ‘saying I said ‘entirety’ re the Irish constitution. You are wrong about the RCC and the Irish constitution.

As another poster as said the Irish constitution promotes aspirations. Also recognises the importance of Irish culturally. The EU echoes this.

https://www.coe.int/en/web/common-european-framework-reference-languages/language-policy-in-the-council-of-europe

‘promote plurilingualism, linguistic diversity and language learning’

https://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/note/join/2013/495851/IPOL-CULT_NT%282013%29495851_EN.pdf

The EU is also big on the protection of endangered languages see above. As it promotes culture of each nation. BnaE echoes this through Article 8 giving Irish protection. But you refuse or cannot see that. As you are one of those minority in Ireland that does realise the cultural importance of Irish. You should at least attempt to educate yourself on such issues. But I feel it is beyond your mindset. 64 percent of people in Ireland feel loss of Irish language loss of identity ESRI 2015.

https://www.esri.ie/system/files/publications/BKMNEXT294_Vol%201.pdf

That is just fact and reflected in Irish language law to promote or protect it.