The creeping prominence of the Irish language

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117969367#Comment_117969367

If you're on Twitter, it might be worth your while have a look at Fáilte Online https://twitter.com/FailteOnline

They do occasional free online courses, many aimed at beginners and new speakers, and they also put out a lot of topical vocabulary tips that are worth reading. There's also a crowd I like called Let's Learn Irish who do online courses and conversation sessions (free, as far as I can see) for new speakers. However, they're based in Washington DC, and their times are designed to suit an American audience, and an 11 pm start to a class isn't always what you want.

There are also plenty of options here for learners, though they do cost a bit (which isn't for everyone). Gaelchultúr, Conradh na Gaeilge, Oideas Gael and the Lárionad na Gaeilge in Maynooth all offer really good stuff at all levels from beginner to expert. They're mostly online at the moment, but that may change if the public health situation continues to improve.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117969819#Comment_117969819

I think "house Paddy" is more accurate, which is why I've used the term.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117970794#Comment_117970794

Not gonna lie, the dual-language announcements at Cowper and Charlemont are a real turn-off. 😛

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117970794#Comment_117970794

Yes that has been a noticeable change over past decade and more. Success of gaelscoileanna and reasons parents choose them?

1) love of the language and a wish to see it used and carried forward in Irish society.

2) political reasons

3) to mostly avoid immigrant children

4) to avail of additional points in state exams

5) to gain state jobs that require competence in Irish

All valid & logical choices made by parents in their own way.

Strumms

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117970785#Comment_117970785

That’s not my logic at all I’m afraid...your getting into Disney scale fiction now. :)

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117969841#Comment_117969841

I wonder was their experience a bit more traumatic? I'm not offering that as a definitive answer, just as a notion worth exploring further. Many people left Europe for better prospects in America. Not many nationalities did it against a backdrop of mass starvation and relocation on the scale of Ireland's. It's worth bearing in mind that only a small minority of those who left Ireland - forcibly, let's face it - in the Famine years and in the 60-70 years after were English-only speakers. Most were Irish speakers or bilingual with Irish as a first language. The same goes for those who died in the Famine. Poverty and starvation on that scale must have left an incredible post-traumatic scar on the entire population, especially those communities and areas who were most affected, who were primarily Irish speakers.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117970640#Comment_117970640

To be fair?

In that case, be fair. I've never in my whole life heard people moan about having to learn any of the useless **** we had to learn at school. We griped at the time, whether it was about the florid language of Shakespeare or the differential co-efficient with respect to x of blah blah blah or whatever, then afterwards we forgot about it. But not Irish. There is a deliberate, intense, irrational and almost masochistic need on the part of many of Ireland's English-speakers to get offended at the Irish language - even though they had to endure the same kind of crap and the same kind of teaching methods in a load of other subjects. That's the reason I suggested the "post-traumatic" idea above.

olestoepoke

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117970407#Comment_117970407

Thankfully according to ESRI research the majority of people in the Republic of Ireland have a positive attitude towards the Irish language regardless of their level. So long as people like you are in the minority the language should continue to thrive. A snippet from an Irish Times article last year;

"The growth of Gaelscoileanna over the last 40 years has generated a massive amount of column inches. As research into the sector grew, showing the benefits of bilingualism for young children, so too did the number of parents enrolling children in Irish medium schools.

In fact, many of these schools started to consistently outperform their English-speaking counterparts, and many parents now feel the best public education in Ireland is available through the medium of the Irish language.

When you complement this with the massive popularity of Irish language summer colleges, for the first time in the history of the state, we have a critical mass of fluent Irish speakers moving into society.

The number of pupils being taught through Irish in primary school have reached record high levels in the recent school year.

Almost one in 12 schoolchildren at primary level are receiving their education through Irish,new figures published by the Department of Education show.

Irish as the primary language of education has risen steadily from 6.4 per cent of primary pupils in 2000 to 8.1 per cent in 2018/19.

A total of 45,278 students across 247 primary schools were taught through the medium of Irish in the recent school year, an annual increase of 1.5 per cent."

The majority of schools, 147 with almost 38,000 pupils, are located outside Gaeltacht areas.

olestoepoke

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117970939#Comment_117970939

Another big reason you've missed is the advantages of Bilingualism, For children, speaking more than one language is often linked to: better academic results– this is because multilingual or bilingual children can often concentrate better, are better at solving problems, understand language structures better, and are better at multitasking.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Simple question was asked - "Is there any other country in the world where so little of their citizens speak their ‘first’ language."

We may by the only one that priotitises ahead of the most widely spoken langauge, but we're not the only one that speaks a different language more widely that the one originally associated with the country.

The wilful ignorace is in thinking that it's "first" purely because that's the way it's written in the constitution.

Wibbs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117971009#Comment_117971009

Trauma may be some part of it, but IMHO it's thin gruel for an overall reason. The earlier example of Newfoundland would have been far less hit by the famine emigres and had a thriving Irish language base and by the early part of the 20th century it fell off a cliff in usuage. The Irish in Ireland after gaining independence were less traumatised and had a far less traumatic 20th century compared to most of Europe and yet again the language's use consistently fell, even with the full weight of government and public service behind it. Never mind diaspora like the Jews who were fleeing areas in Europe where murderous pograms were a near annual event and they held onto more of the language. The Chinese diaspora left grinding poverty and faced lots of hardship and obstacles based on their race. EG the navvies working the US railroad had a large contingent of both Irish and Chinese workers, the latter were paid far less and had far fewer rights codified in law and again far more of them kept their language.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117971082#Comment_117971082

The main difference between Shakespeare and quadratic whatevers and Irish is unless one wanted to pursue English lit. or maths in third level and beyond is that people could go their whole lives without encountering it again. Irish is far more current. No doubt if Shakespeare was on roadsigns and over tannoys you'd get more current complaints. Personally I don't care about Irish one way or another as far as stuff like roadsigns and announcements go. I'm glad it's survived, but it's mostly background noise tbh. The funding towards it can sometimes make me think wut? but then again we piss money up the wall for worse.

Wibbs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117970939#Comment_117970939

It's also a cheaper way to get what is essentially at the level of private schooling. It's also currently dead fashionable among the chattering classes of suburbia. Of those parents I know who've sent their kids to one love of the language was by their own admission lower down the scale(all but one set of parents have near zero Irish themselves). Better schooling, smaller classes, additional points and yep in more whispered tones "fewer Blacks" was very much in the mix. Let's just say Polish folks kids were not an issue and there were a couple of them in one of the schools in question.

Wibbs

Actually, another thing I noticed and it was confirmed by the parents I know who can speak Irish; their kids rarely used it outside of the classroom, even with their gaelscoileanna mates. They reverted to English beyond the school gates. After they moved to secondary school it was unused save for Irish classes and homework.

PeadarCo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117971460#Comment_117971460

I have a question. Why are Gaelscoilenna used as an example of the strength/relevance/growth of the Irish language? Has any study been done on what percentage of the students of these schools go on to speak Irish on a daily basis when compared to non Gaelscoils outside Gaeltachts?

I ask that because of your comment in your post where you say anecdotally that students just use Irish in schools. That means that potentially Gaelscoils have minimal impact on Irish language usage in wider society. I think they do help the Irish language in the sense they provide more jobs for Irish speakers. However if Gaelscoils are not very effective at promoting Irish language usage outside the education system do alternative strategies need to be looked at and resources be reallocated? We know historically that the education system for different reasons is not good at increasing or even maintaining the number of speakers of the Irish language. Why are Gaelscoils considered to be any better especially in light of your anecdote.

I appreciate this argument can get polarised however I think your ancedote raises an interesting question regardless of a person's exact position on the Irish language.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117971761#Comment_117971761

Most kids only go to Gaelscoilenna to increase their chances of getting good grades and getting into third level - which is fine for them, but doesn't do anything for the advancement of the Irish language.

EmmetSpiceland

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117971761#Comment_117971761

Gaelscoileanna are considered “better” because they have little, to no, foreign nationals with poor English, and no Irish, language skills and they are also reputed to take in no kids with additional needs.

These kids are seen as ones who take away teacher time from kids without these “difficulties”. Smaller class sizes would be another factor.

If I had my way all, public, primary schools would be taught through Irish.

TheValeyard

I am happy to new see more of our native tongue used in signage or day to day life. Long may it continue. Could create a positive reaction to the language rather than older generation who suffered through Peig.

whisky_galore

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117971786#Comment_117971786

The real test of gaelscoils is how many continue to use Irish AFTER they leave the school system. Otherwise they're just a middle class means to get the edge on the rest of the herd.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117971795#Comment_117971795

You're gonna lose a whole generation by doing that while we go through a transition phase.

You can't just make a change like that and expect entire families to hinder their kids' education by switching language to a language they probably don't understand on a whim.

The purpose of an education system is to educate people, not preserve a langauge.

olestoepoke

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117971786#Comment_117971786

Do you have kids in a Gaeilscoil? Do you know many children currently in a Gaeilscoil? How can you possibly know with any certainty what their parents motives are for choosing to send their children there? And how can anyone in their right mind say that adding 50,000 (currently in primary schools) future Gaeilgeoirs will not contribute to the advancement of the Irish language? Ridiculous post.

Anyway, this thread is basically a thread for EngLish Speaking Monologuists (ESM) to do what their thing.

In Canada there is uproar amongst the ESMs if they see a French sign, an EMS driving though Scotland or Wales is enraged by the mere existence of Gaelic or Welsh, an Australian EMS is appalled by money spent on reviving aboriginal languages, an EMS is shocked when English isn't understood in Vienna, Paris or Berlin. Of course mostly it is but the ESM demands it everywhere.

AckwelFoley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117971891#Comment_117971891

They speak French in Canada. Its widely spoken

That's not the case in Ireland

olestoepoke

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117971795#Comment_117971795

I get the foreign national poor English argument, some parents could argue that these kids would slow down the class or require more of the teachers time. I don't know anything about this but it is an argument I've heard. Regarding kids with additional needs, I don't think its accurate to say they do not take kids with additional needs, I know of at least 3 that have a special needs class, I'd like to see the statistics on that one. Could be that they are obliged to offer places to kids with additional needs but that many parents feel it is hard enough for some children without having to deal with two languages. Regarding the smaller class sizes not sure thats accurate either, here's another snippet from an article in the Indo last year;

"Pupils attending gaelscoileanna outside Gaeltacht areas are more likely to be in large classes than English-­medium schools or gaelscoileanna in the Gaeltacht. More than 28pc of pupils in Irish-medium schools outside the Gaeltacht are in large classes compared to 17pc of pupils in schools where English is the main language."

EmmetSpiceland

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117971863#Comment_117971863

Well, there is, F. They like to “interview” the parents first to make sure they have the Erse, or at least some standard of it, so would be tough going for an immigrant family.

Even if they got through that “phase” I’m sure they would come up with a different excuse to knock them back.

olestoepoke

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117971841#Comment_117971841

Ignorant post

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117971898#Comment_117971898

It’s not widely spoken in the west of Canada, not at all in fact. And yet as you enter Canada in British Colombia there’s a sign saying both Welcome to Canada and Bienvenue au Canada

Anyway, unfortunately for English language Mono-linguists, it isn’t a matter of how much Irish is spoken in Ireland, it is the first official language of Ireland. Constitutionally.

So you need a constitutional change to stop yourselves getting enraged at signage. And before that is going to happen you need the Dail to propose the referendum. For that to happen you need a large political party, or parties, to support you. Hard to know what party would be your best bet, but probably not up and coming Sinn Fein. I can’t honestly think of one politician on your side

anyway that’s what is needed. Out into the open with yez all. after all you think you have great support, time to organise outside the internet.

(And that won’t stop private industry, like the lighthouse cinema, using any language they want to name an event. You would need even more draconian legislation there which would certainly be over thrown by the ECj).

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117971841#Comment_117971841

Nail on the head. Pure snobbery, the entitled classes not mixing with the undesirables and preserving an environment where no answer is wrong. Which fosters racism anew and thin-skinned arrogance. In short, the next generation will exemplify the soft resolve bubble. God help us if these spoiled creatures meet the corridors of power.

olestoepoke

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117971936#Comment_117971936

I'm pretty certain the interview is to make sure the parents know what they are getting themselves into and have the commitment to see it through, the initial interview is in English and not a test of your level of Irish. Hence, anyone can enrol, and many parents from all parts of the world do. Im my sons class alone there are children who's parents are from, New Zealand, Italy and Africa, how do you think those parents "got through that phase"?

AckwelFoley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117971978#Comment_117971978

No, but by population it is. Its a widely spoken national language. Irish isn't

Reati

This whole thread has descended into tired old tropes and to be blunt, same old bullshit as every boards thread on Irish.

I've always found it amazing how many people state they couldn't care less about Irish but can't wait to tell everyone all the reasons they hate it. Doesn't really match up.

There is so many things I have zero interest or activitly dislike. I doubt I've posted once about them online and certainly don't feel the need to belittle those who have an interest in them. Yet Irish speakers have to continuously listen to the types who post in here. The "I don't care about Irish but..." crowd. Mostly the same set of folks I wasted time debunking last thing this thread came up.

Not time I'm going to waste again but I will stand up for this point.

To say people send there kids to a Gaelscoil to avoid mixing with foreign kids is a disgustingly disrespectful comment and 100% the words of someone who hasn't been with 20 miles of a Gaelscoil. Plenty of mixing of nationalities and races in any Gaelscoil I've been too. It says alot about those folks if that's what they think of as a benefit of Gaelscoileanna.

Slán.

Wibbs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117971761#Comment_117971761

Oh the kids will of course have that second language which is advantageous anyway regardless of the language involved and it will bolster the Irish language itself as some will keep using it to some degree or other. It's certainly in a healthier state than not so long ago. Gaelscoileanna were around in the past. My own mother went to one(the only one of the extended family to do so) in Dublin back in the day. I've no idea why tbh. Funny enough in my school years she was of little help with my Irish homework. She'd effectively forgotten the majority of it. My dad on the other hand had more Irish because he'd been going fishing in the west of Ireland since he was a kid and had picked it up talking to locals waaaay back in the day(him being born when the GPO was still smouldering after an Easter egg hunt got a bit violent). My previously mentioned uncle who was fluent needed it at first for the civil service and then when he married someone who was a speaker. He himself reckons he would have gotten very rusty if he'd married someone else. In a way that shows the difference. For my mum it was a "useless" language as none of her peers spoke it so it withered on the vine, whereas for my father and uncle it had been actually useful so was worth retaining. These days there are certainly more outlets for it, even if they're only clubs for that sorta thing so you'll have more people using it. There can be an element of forced usuage with some, but it does help keep it going. As do outlets like TG4 and the like.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117971936#Comment_117971936

There's certainly a lot of that going on, a bias, unconscious and not. Of the parents I know who sent their kids to one, only one pair had Irish, the rest didn't. Their kids still got in, though they're all solidly middle class with the "right" background... In Dublin anyway there's more than the sniff of elitism going on with the leafy suburban gaelscoileanna(I strongly suspect that's far less in play outside the Pale).

AckwelFoley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117972006#Comment_117972006

I live beside a gaelscoils. Nice try.

Very few have said anything about hating the language. Most are unhappy about the absolute need for you lot to feel like victims when we don't want millions wasted on flogging it

But it's 2021. Everyone is a victim 😴

CGI_Livia_Soprano

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117972030#Comment_117972030

This whole thread originated from a poster throwing a bitchfit over being exposed to Irish. 🙄

olestoepoke

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117972027#Comment_117972027

That's the first time I've heard someone label Inchicore, Ballymun, Coolock or Balbriggan etc as "Leafy suburban"

Wibbs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117971978#Comment_117971978

it isn’t a matter of how much Irish is spoken in Ireland, it is the first official language of Ireland. Constitutionally.

One might consider that this line sums up quite well the dissonance around the Irish language. In essence the same Irish people who as you rightly note would baulk at any constitutional change in the primacy of Irish in law need to be told by law it's their first language and very few of them can speak it with any fluency. It's like a bloke telling all his mates he's in love with a woman, but he never sleeps with her, at best drops the hand to give her arse cheek an inexpert squeeze. I'm not sure the woman in question would believe his protestations of love. 😁

AckwelFoley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117972055#Comment_117972055

Clearly Irish is your favored language, because you don't understand English particularly well.

I said "most people" not everyone

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058211385/the-creeping-prominence-of-the-irish-language

The title and OP of this thread is about the 'creeping prominence of the Irish language'. I and others have simply pointed out that this hasn't happened by accident. It all stems from the Official Languages Act 2003 which seeks to enforce the position of Irish as per Article 8 of the constitution.

Personally I have a grá for our Irish culture, traditions and language, despite what others try to paint. I think it perfectly reasonable that citizens should be able to interact with their neighbours and state bodies through the medium of the language. No argument there. I'd support the idea that there should be Irish only signage and information in Gaeltacht areas, that's part of the deal.

Where I do have a difficulty is that this Official Languages Act 2003 was imposed on every citizen of the state without wide consultation. I was never asked for my opinions on it, I've never heard of anyone who was consulted. I think it's safe to assume that the main drivers behind the act were language lobbyists. That's fine insofar as that is/was their right to lobby. But it doesn't follow that the rest of society should be bound by a small group of lobbyists on such matters. I repeat that this legislation should have been carefully explained at the time and put to public referendum. I'll leave it there.

CGI_Livia_Soprano

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117972069#Comment_117972069

There is no dissonance on the part of native Irish speakers whose first and main language is Irish and yet they constantly struggle to get the same services as English speakers in Ireland.

Nobody believes that English is the most prominent language in Ireland however Irish speakers have to defend themselves over and over again to English speakers in order to be treated equally.

Irish speakers are tax paying citizens of this country, and it is their right not to be treated as second class citizens just because English speakers can’t wrap their head around someone using a language other than English.

Wibbs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117972059#Comment_117972059

Indeed, but how many students of a darker persuasion attend such schools as Gaelige? How many attend the regular national schools in the same area? Compare and contrast. For the craic like search Colaiste Ghlor na Mara in Balbriggan and play spot the tanned kid. In Balbriggan...

I don't buy the "well maybe they're not fluent in english so are already at a disadvantage". As an example Nigerians have one of the highest fluency in English of the different migrant populations living in Ireland and secondly kids hoover up languages like a sponge, which the Gaelscoileanna movement itself points out as an advantage of the schools. And yet... I would bet the farm that the percentage of non White kids attending Gaelscoileanna in urban areas is significantly lower than the overall population of same. To deny that reality would be foolish.

CGI_Livia_Soprano

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117972108#Comment_117972108

Your posts have so many typos in them it’s often difficult to comprehend what you’re trying to put across. Maybe take a few English lessons yourself.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117971891#Comment_117971891

Either that's one he'll off a bitter rant or you have no idea what English speakers think.

AckwelFoley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117972130#Comment_117972130

You're far too easily risen.

Loosen the strap on your drawers and have a good evening

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117971890#Comment_117971890

Firstly, I misread that for Gaeltacht (not sure how - apologies!) - but secondary school education is always a means to an end - and the purpose of a secondary education - is college points.

It shouldn't be - but it is.

Wibbs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117972055#Comment_117972055

Yeah and I really don't get that at all. In my life Irish only figured in my schooldays. Something to plough through like algebra. Since then it figures not a jot really. It's pretty much invisible and inaudible to me. So what if a sign is in Irish? It may as well be in Swahili for as much as it affects me. If it helps others, even as cultural window dressing for many, so what? *shrug*

CGI_Livia_Soprano

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117972143#Comment_117972143

ha ha ha, you tried to mock my comprehension of your risible, racist, typo-ridden posts and when I threw it back at you you started crying about it.

You’re just a bully.

olestoepoke

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117972126#Comment_117972126

All true, mostly. But there is absolutely nothing stopping a child who's parents are of African decent from enrolling in a Gaelscoil and the small few who have are proof of this. Have you ever considered that some parents are not interested in that level of integration? So what exactly are you trying to argue?

Wibbs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117972115#Comment_117972115

Again so what Furze? It can be imposed by whomever and however it likes, but the plain fact is in day to day encounters, business and higher education it won't matter for the vast majority of people. Hell there are nigh on one hundred thousand Polish people living in Ireland, each one of whom has more actual native fluency and a wider vocabularly in that language than the vast majority of Irish speakers.

CGI_Livia_Soprano

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117972151#Comment_117972151

I understand that Wibbs but for people who grew up speaking Irish it’s not a school subject. It’s not a scam to keep their kids away from foreigners either. 🙄

I have friends who are native Irish speakers from the Gaeltacht and English would be a second language to them, in terms of comprehension, expressing themselves etc. These are not old men, these are people in their 20s-30s. People like these exist. Tax paying citizens of this country who only ask to be treated the same as everyone else without constantly having to defend themselves and their language, like they’re living perverted lifestyles.

AckwelFoley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117972161#Comment_117972161

Christ. You're an odd one.

How you extrapolate that shite from what I said is bizzare at least.

Wibbs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117972168#Comment_117972168

The obvious.