The creeping prominence of the Irish language

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117977822#Comment_117977822

I couldn't make any assumptions about anyone who posts on a message board about Irish. I've never met such a level of hostility (nor such a level of desire to share that hostility) regarding Gaeilge in real life, so I have very little on which to base an assessment. The people with whom I converse i nGaeilge (and as I said never in English) have a mixure of work backgrounds, with qualifications in the sciences and the humanities, not to mention a couple of trades.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117978944#Comment_117978944

There's no hope you'd ever get a conversation like that in real life,. The vast majority of people wouldn't risk coming out with some of this guff in case they'd end up becoming a live illustration of the seanfhocal is minic a bhris béal duine a shrón. Keyboard warriors are a hoot. 😁

markodaly

delete

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117980037#Comment_117980037

Nuair a bhí mé i mo dhéagóir (fadó fadó), bhí teach tábhairne áirithe sa cheantar a bhí sásta piontaí a dhíol do dhaoine óga (faoi aois) a bhí in ann caint leis an bhfoireann i nGaeilge.

When I was a teenager (a long time ago), there was a particular pub in the area that was willing to sell pints to young people (underage) who could speak to the staff in Irish.

(Now THAT was an incentive to learn a couple of phrases)

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117980216#Comment_117980216

I get what you mean about not being a native speaker. But of course, if you don't learn Irish you'll sound even less like a native speaker. In your own country. And, as you clearly believe, in that language's own country. But does that really matter? I'll never sound like a native speaker, but I'm knocking a lot of fun out of the attempt.

On the other hand, I know some foreigners who speak Irish to a very high standard indeed. One American of my acquaintance has been learning for less than 10 years, but is such a high-quality Irish speaker that locals assume he's an Irish person who can put on an excellent American accent.

If you were to learn languages other than Irish (or perhaps you already have), would that lack of "perfection" or "high standard" bother you? They say it's one of the biggest barriers to learning any foreign language; people don't want to make errors and be heard making errors. But making errors is a natural part of learning a language - every child has to make countless errors, yet children will have a very high understanding of the syntax and grammar of their native language by the time they reach 4.

If you and I had a conversation about pretty much any subject in real life and in English, the objective quality of the English would be very high. Yet if we recorded the conversation and then played it back, it would be riddled with mistakes, and full of "facepalm moments".

On the subject of foreigners speaking Irish, here's a 4-minute video of a fella called Victor Bayda being interviewed (Gaeilge with English subtitles) about his work. He's employed as an Irish language language planner for South Kerry. He was born in Moscow. Leaving aside any debating points you might want to raise, have a listen for a couple of minutes. To my slightly inexpert ear, there are a couple of words that might be influenced by a native Russian accent, but you'd have to be very picky to say he's inauthentic. Mind you, apparently he is proficient in NINE languages.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQ8edEJEJfY

riclad

All the Irish tik Toks I've seen are people doing very stupid things or else jokes in bad taste, we have 5 million people, I sure x per cent speak Irish, good for them. X per cent of people. Write poems, or play the bodhran. Good for them , just don't try and force everyone else to do it I don't watch tik Toks regularly , I watch comedy shows, grand designs etc maybe there's 1000s of people making YouTube videos in Irish daily but I don't see them. I'd like the government to maybe try and solve the housing crisis, maybe hire more nurses and doctors , reform the health service use more renewable energy as we depend on oil and gas which is rising in cost

I don't think the Irish language should even be in the top 30 problems to tackle as we try to recover from pandemic.maybe all my friends speak Irish but they forgot to tell me

Wibbs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117981823#Comment_117981823

I know and have known a few Irish language speakers, mostly hobbyists with a couple of native speakers. People like anybody else. Good bad and indifferent. 😁 I know and have known a few golfers too. That doesn't interest me either. Spending a week with either group would have little impact. I have zero issue with people enjoying whatever they do and can understand the passion in many, but I've enough hobbies and the interest just isn't there. I think this is the sticking point for many Irish language enthusiasts. They just don't get that others aren't interested the way they are.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117981889#Comment_117981889

I get what you mean about not being a native speaker. But of course, if you don't learn Irish you'll sound even less like a native speaker. In your own country. And, as you clearly believe, in that language's own country. But does that really matter? I'll never sound like a native speaker, but I'm knocking a lot of fun out of the attempt.

For a start I don't "clearly believe" that Irish is the language's own country. I consider to be a minority native language of the country and native to only a small percentage of her population. English is the native language for the vast majority of the Irish people, at home and abroad. With a couple of tweaks of history it could well have been French and that would have become our native language. And fair enough, though I think the "English" bit sticks in the craw of some. Understandable enough. Regardless; is an Englishman less of a native if he can't speak Cornish? Is a Spaniard less of a native if he can't speak Basque? A Frenchman if he can't speak Breton? Of course not. Much of this native language stuff has politics behind it. EG if I added: Is a Welshman less of a native if he can't speak Welsh? That would take on a different hue.

The lack of perfection wouldn't bother me, so long as I could get a point across, which goes for any language. The difference being in learning a language like French or Spanish, or German would be more of practical utility rather than a passion or hobby. If we had that imagined conversation as Gaelige it would be an exercise in speaking a "foreign" language and that's fine. Again there is that gulf between those who see Irish as a passion and hobby - which is fine and fair enough - and those that quite simply don't.

The Muscovite lad is very impressive alright. I've known two such language polyglots who seem to have an incredible natural ability to absorb languages. With passion and hard work required of course. These people are rare enough mind you, though the majority could hold two languages in their head to some degree. We see that in other countries where English is a second language(Sweden and the like)and history shows it too. In the Roman empire an average bod or bodess could have a facility in Latin, Greek in the east and whatever language local to them(if you hopped in a time machine learning Greek would probably be your best bet overall). After that fell we can look to the large number of Irish Christian missionary types who marched into post Roman Europe. They would have had Old Irish, Latin, some Greek and picked up local languages along the way. Even the IT/computer programmer type that has gotten stick from some in this thread and accusations of being monolingual(and in perfidious Albion's tongue no less) has more than one language, often several, only they're talking to computers. If I'm shown a page of Python or C I may as well be looking at Aramaic.

Wibbs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117981904#Comment_117981904

All the Irish tik Toks I've seen are people doing very stupid things or else jokes in bad taste,

To be fair all the TicToks I've seen were people doing very stupid things, or bad jokes. The language involved, where it was present, made little difference. Then again that platform is for young farts not old. Being of the latter I'd be worried if I understood it and would reckon the youth were doing something wrong. 😁

Cyclingtourist

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117973781#Comment_117973781

the organization you're trying to remember was the Language Freedom Movement. I remember them holding meetings in the Mansion House in Dublin.

Founded in 1966, the Language Freedom Movement (Irish: Gluaiseacht Saoirse Teanga) was a political organisation opposed[dubious – discuss] to some aspects of the state-attempted revival of the Irish language in the Republic of Ireland, which had the backing of several notable Irish-speaking writers including Séamus Ó Grianna ("Máire") and John B. Keane.[1][2]

I would describe it as a pressure group rather than a 'political organisation'.

gormdubhgorm

As another poster suggested most people in the ROI are just content to have Irish ‘the background’. I agree with that poster it is just the way it is.

Such people are happy with little bits here and there such as Irish signage etc. But for various reasons do not take it further and speak Irish regularly. Even though they have some Irish from school at least.

This middle ground seem to have a latent pride in the Irish language, without regularly speaking it.

Granted outside the middle ground there are people who would have utmost distain for the Irish language. Or on the other extreme some hate how they are forced to speak English in their daily lives.Despite being fluent Irish speakers in their own country etc.

I saw this clip of Luke ‘Ming’ Flanagan discussing the Irish language and his relationship with it. He mentions how it was taught at his school, and how he feels about it now. Plus made various practical suggestions to make learning Irish, fun and relevant.

https://youtu.be/zz-3Bhcbja4

The bit that stood out to me was how Ming said the only time he enjoyed doing Irish was in the Irish Oral examination. When he was speaking it and having fun with it.

And it also struck me how Ming again shows up the myth (repeated a number of times on this thread) that only the ‘cultural elite’ in Ireland care/own the Irish language.

In any case, it seems to me this ‘cultural elite’ phrase used on this thread is typical ‘boards.ie’ type narrative. Divorced from mainstream opinion and trotted out by certain posters who have an agenda against the Irish language.

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117981865#Comment_117981865

Haha 😂

https://youtu.be/rAS4ACnfbkA

lawred2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058211385/the-creeping-prominence-of-the-irish-language

It's our native language. It's your problem if it bothers you.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117985271#Comment_117985271

Not really.

lawred2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117985362#Comment_117985362

Is it someone else's problem? 😐️

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117985396#Comment_117985396

I dont see it as my native language, why world it be a problem?

Wibbs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117985271#Comment_117985271

Native language is a more complex term than it first appears. Many if not most nation states in the world have more than one language native to their country. Sometimes they're actually native in the sense that they largely sprung up there, others are imports. Indeed many if not most languages are imports, it just depends on how far back you go. Irish itself or its earliest form replaced, likely on the back of farmers coming in, the previous language(s) spoken here. English itself came from the Germanic speaking tribes of places like modern day Denmark and Holland and over time slowly enough replaced the local Britannic languages(many of which would have been related to Irish of the time). Of course modern speakers of both would be hard pressed to understand those early versions. Italy has a few, most of which developed independently from Latin arriving in kinda similar places. It also has bits of German and French. Spain has around four IIRC, including Basque which is about as native as it gets. The romance languages are feckin' blow ins compared to Basque. 😁 Spanish and Catalan are Latin derivatives, borne on the back of invasion, conquest and trade by those pesky Italians with notions. Much like English was here(minus the Italians). The passage of time is such that any irritation or politic of its foreign imposition is long gone. That's one area where Hiberno English differs. As movements of people and ideas became easier with both innovations in transport and the printing press, local languages and dialects got swallowed up or went extinct and one or two main languages got the nod and were themselves standardised(early printed English, French, Italian, Spanish, German etc spellings were all over the place). Even Irish has dialiects and has become standardised in many ways. Spelling for a start was simplified in the 20th century.

So "native language" is a bit of a rabbit hole and a deep one at that. You'd want a neck as hard as a jockey's bollocks to tell a Spaniard they're speaking the language of the invader and it's not really a native language, merely a dialect of Italian, but some Irish speakers say similar about English. What's that line? Is fear Gaeilge briste na Bearla clsste, broken Irish is better than good English or something along those lines anyway. That's politics, not communication.

English has been spoken here for over four hundred years(longer if you count earlier Saxon derivatives). I'd be willing to bet that many of the Irish speakers here would find Shakespeare's 16th century English easier to read than a similar text in Early Modern Irish. And Hiberno English is spoken by pretty much every single Irish person alive today and some of the finest literature ever commited to the page in that language was wrtten by Irish writers. It's pretty native at this stage.

ireallydontknow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117985794#Comment_117985794

I've been meaning to unsubscribe from this thread. Glad I waited till after your post.

riclad

go on youtube ,theres loads of people who certainly do not speak english perfectly, hows it gooenn press the buhhhon, instead of press the button, g,s and t,s are dropped or maybe they do not exist for those people , I even see ads where they pronounce some words incorrectly .if someone wants to revive the irish language please build a time machine and go back to 1800 with unlimited funds .ordinary people do not speak perfectly, real life is not the bbc or rte.trying to get most people to speak irish in daily life is impossible, its like trying to hold back the sea or stop any irish person from drinking beer or smoking .

the uk and ireland have always being close. even republicans watch british tv and soccer .and listen to uk pop music .the question is how much money the government will spend on pointless virtue signalling like having train times spoken in irish and english.most irtish people will never speak irish after school unless its part of their job.Language changes constantly over time as new words are invented and words become irrelevant and unused.if we went back to 1200 we probably would not understand the older forms of english used.i have heard americans saying they cannot understand some irish people who speak english with regional accents and use local slang.if the government wanted to revive the irish language ,id say pay streamers and gamers on youtube, twitch to speak irish, and make tik toks in irish.theres a reason why apart from tg4 95 per cent of irish programs are made in english, eg most viewers would not understand a comedy or a drama made in irish .even in the 70s most irish homes in rural areas, had an aerial so they could watch british tv ,itv,bbc, before cable tv was invented .anyone is free to learn irish and speak it if they want to and good luck to them .

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117985810#Comment_117985810

In other words you are only glad to find a post that you can find some semblance of agreement in. So you can cherry pick bits out of context (in future) from the post above to suit your narrative

This basically means you can confirm your clear bias. And gives you some sort of answer that you can ‘hang on’ to.

But you still have not seemed to figure out why Irish language signage and a bit in emails are a problem for you yet?

And why you seem to have this prejudice. Based on myths of ‘cultural elites’ and so on?

Those reading this thread are still none the wiser why it gets you emotive? Cause and root etc? Or is it to remain a secret?

Or do you simply not know why you believe there is a ‘creeping prominence’ of Irish? When the reality says otherwise.

English spoken by the majority and so on. And you can hardly call it a creeping prominence (since the foundation of the state) because if anything use of Irish has regressed as community language.

Yet somehow you view simple things as signage as some sort of ‘take over’. Bit of a warped viewpoint in light of the bigger picture IMO.

Furthermore you do not seem to know why you believe that interest in the Irish Language is the preserve of ‘zealots and cultural elites’?

This is despite the reality telling a different story. As I have previously illustrated with examples.

It is clear to me most people in Ireland would miss Irish if it was not there. Even if they do not speak it regularly.

That is just the way the majority of public opinion is. There is a pride in it still. This is true at many peoples various levels of engagement with the language either in people’s past or present. Most would miss it if it was gone. There would be a certain amount of guilt as well.

The signage and emails etc are far from ‘creeping’. This the real irony. It is based on legislation pushing 20 years old!

IMO it is an admission of defeat by the relevant authorities (approved by the majority of the Irish people) as it gives up on Irish language immersion hope. And merely replaced it with a veneer a gentle reminder of the Irish language.

It is stagnation in my view there is no ‘creeping’ or daily life ‘prominence’. In other words use of Irish as a community language.

But for some reason known only to yourself this ‘veneer’ seems like a threat to you and a step to far. I find it a baffling viewpoint and irrational.

lawred2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117985794#Comment_117985794

I didn't say English wasn't a native tongue

Upforthematch

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117986169#Comment_117986169

Why does the Irish legislation signal 'defeat' for promotion of the language or immersion? It's a fairly expensive 'veneer' if that's all it is. To me it's a rights issue that the state is only catching up on 100 years too late!

The native community dimension is gone now but Irish itself isn't going anywhere.

oookkkaaayyy

Bang of orange off this thread.

Fishdoodle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117985903#Comment_117985903

it has cultural value and that's a good thing

Of course 👍

how much money the government will spend on pointless virtue signalling like having train times spoken in irish and english.

When you break it down ... speaking train times in Irish costs next to nothing. Road signs: the plan as far as I'm aware is to give parity to both languages -italics will be normal text instead I presume. Would actually cost very little as signs will be changed when signs are being repaired/replaced. - Basically the 'waste of money' argument in this regard is a non-runner.

most Irish people will never speak Irish after school unless its part of their job

 The same applies to most other subjects. It is good to have a spread of knowledge in different disciplines as various faculties of mind and spirit can be cultivated.

if the government wanted to revive the irish language ,id say pay streamers and gamers on youtube, twitch to speak irish, and make tik toks in irish.

 That's not actually a bad idea :-)

 most viewers would not understand a comedy or a drama made in irish .even in the 70s most irish homes in rural areas, had an aerial so they could watch british tv ,itv,bbc,

TV has certainly eroded elements of our culture here and accross the world. Most of it is hardly inspiring - 'bread and circuses' (grand designs...an exception :-) ) . Most homes in rural areas just got RTE 1 & 2 as far as I'm aware. City folk got the the other channels. You can see how culture (in general) is shifting with all the Americanisms picked up and used in English. Most stuff on TV is British/American - seems a kind of cultural bombardment and changes how we speak esp. kids "That's so awsome!" 🙄

Fishdoodle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117985794#Comment_117985794

So "native language" is a bit of a rabbit hole and a deep one at that.

Absolutely! The very meaning of 'native' can mean different things. Will mull over some of your points - interesting read all the same!

Fishdoodle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117985164#Comment_117985164

The vid was interesting! Seems like Ming the Merciless has a little mercy in him after all.

Fishdoodle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117981889#Comment_117981889

On learning languages & fluency:

But does that really matter? I'll never sound like a native speaker, but I'm knocking a lot of fun out of the attempt.

When we stop being overly serious about things it becomes so much easier to learn ...anything!

cj maxx

Those ranting and complaining about irish being used for signage etc remind me of the Dubs I knew ,who called gaelic football bogball. Until of course Dublin started winning, then they were fans . Living in the North now I actually miss the cupla focal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117982366#Comment_117982366

If you don't want to try a different perspective, I can't make you. But I can express the opinion that by trying a different perspective you gain a broader understanding - including understanding of the motivations of the good, bad and indifferent Irish speaking people of your acquaintance. I've no time for golf either; but I can state that with a really high level of confidence because I put many hours into playing it before deciding that it wasn't for me, just as I did with both GAA codes and a few other hobbies I can think of. But 'tis a busy life, and each to their own.

I don't mean to be pedantic, but I didn't say that you clearly believe that Irish is the country's own language; I said you clearly believe that Ireland is the language's own country. That's a very different thing, and most of what you have to say about English or French is interesting, but it isn't relevant to the question of Ireland being the Irish language's own country. But also, if you don't believe that, what were you thinking of when you said:

"I'm still not going to be a native speaker. In my own country."

If you don't believe that Ireland is the Irish language's home country, those last four words are unnecessary and in fact fit very badly with the rest of the point being made.

You also went on to say that the lack of perfection wouldn't bother you. That makes complete sense - in contrast to your point earlier which seemed to question the value of your learning Irish because you wouldn't learn it to a sufficient extent to sound like a native speaker. Hence my question.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117985249#Comment_117985249

I was in a boozer in Gleann Cholm Cille one night a few years ago and someone sang that without any intro or explanation. A brand-new learner from Germany was perplexed and asked me if the song was about a certain Cork brand of stout.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117985271#Comment_117985271

At the risk of repeating myself, it isn't our native language, and I say that as a person who speaks it as much as I can and who wants to see and hear a lot more of it about the place. Referring to it in that way is inaccurate, and makes it harder to do an honest job of encouraging more people to use the bits they have.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117986402#Comment_117986402

TV has certainly eroded elements of our culture here and accross the world. Most of it is hardly inspiring - 'bread and circuses' (grand designs...an exception :-) ) . Most homes in rural areas just got RTE 1 & 2 as far as I'm aware. City folk got the the other channels. You can see how culture (in general) is shifting with all the Americanisms picked up and used in English. Most stuff on TV is British/American - seems a kind of cultural bombardment and changes how we speak esp. kids "That's so awsome!" 🙄

I'm still gonna give a shout out here for Strictly Come Dancing. One of my favourite pieces of (mindless) cultural imperialism.

riclad

Most people in rural areas have soarview and at least a satellite dish with freesat, an old satellite sky box gives you acess to dozens of free channels, it 1, 2, 3, bbc 1.2,4 free no sub needed . I think most young people spend hours looking at phones using apps etc the chances of most Irish people suddenly deciding to speak Irish in daily life is very low since the pandemic started we have seen the importance of the Web for remote work education English is the language of the web

Try and get a job just only speaking Irish English is the language of work the Internet and business i know people in some areas who can't get broadband their mobile phone is the only way they can use the Web or maybe a 4g dongle linked to a tablet, laptop. I think the Irish language will always be strong in the Gaeltacht and with a certain minority of users

Our economy relys to a large extent on non nationals in retail hotels etc these people have probably little knowledge of the Irish language

whisky_galore

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117986348#Comment_117986348

So pray tell, are you speaking irish everyday? Kids in a gaelscoil?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117986402#Comment_117986402

In fairness, the quality of home produced TV programs has generally been very poor, regardless of what language it was done in.

Wibbs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117986441#Comment_117986441

If you don't want to try a different perspective, I can't make you. But I can express the opinion that by trying a different perspective you gain a broader understanding - including understanding of the motivations of the good, bad and indifferent Irish speaking people of your acquaintance. I've no time for golf either; but I can state that with a really high level of confidence because I put many hours into playing it before deciding that it wasn't for me, just as I did with both GAA codes and a few other hobbies I can think of. But 'tis a busy life, and each to their own.

As a hobbie then, learning Irish holds no interest for me. I have been exposed to it a couple of times in my adult life. I've gone to a few Ceili nights where the language was a large part of the scene(because of a woman I was seeing for a while and my interest was more libidinous than cultural 😄). Just didn't interest me. TBH outside of an occassional listen to solo pipes I'd have no gra(loan word 🙂) for Irish trad music. So square peg in round hole was going on. Against my better judgement I did try golf too, but that was even worse. Linkedin on the links, populated by accountants, middle managers and the like. Necessary evils, but evils none the less. 😁

I agree my native speaker thing was clumsy on my part. It would be more along the lines of I already speak a native language of Ireland, why be tongue tied in another that's less native to me.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117986437#Comment_117986437

Oh there can certainly be an element of that alright and I have encountered that. Regularly from people whose parents or grandparents were from outside Dublin, which I found interesting. At least some of that in previous generations was insecurity and a distancing from what they saw as somehow inferior now they were "moving up in the world". Accents were another example. Many was the time I'd meet people's parents who would have very nice rural accents, but their kids were full on D4. On the other side of that you had some who hung onto the non Dublin thing while living in the place. I knew one guy whose hiring policy for his Dublin based company was slanted against Dubs. There was a definite rurul/urban thing going on in Irish society and in particular a Dublin/Rest of the country thing. You see it here on Boards often enough even now. The "Dublin is a dangerous hellhole" type comments and Dublin accents seen as ghastly. If you said similar about Cork accents you'd get some stick. 😁 (I do like a nice Cork accent I have to say). As someone whose family on both sides goes back to the egg in Dublin I thought it odd and though I had no real connection to Irish or GAA I never cared about it enough either way to disparage it. Plus gun to my head I'd rather watch a hurlng match than soccerball any day of the week.

Wibbs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117986402#Comment_117986402

TV has certainly eroded elements of our culture here and accross the world. Most of it is hardly inspiring - 'bread and circuses' (grand designs...an exception :-) ) . Most homes in rural areas just got RTE 1 & 2 as far as I'm aware. City folk got the the other channels. You can see how culture (in general) is shifting with all the Americanisms picked up and used in English. Most stuff on TV is British/American - seems a kind of cultural bombardment and changes how we speak esp. kids "That's so awsome!" 🙄

Yeah back in the day it was pretty much only people on the eastern seaboard of the country got the UK channels, either with huge feckin' aerials or they had the "piped TV". The rest of the country was basically RTE. Even so and though me and my peers got UK TV, none of us had British accents or mid Atlantic ones from watching those channels. Even RTE had a fair number of bought in American shows, probably more than the likes of the BBC. My early childhood was spent watching things like Sesame Street and I didn't pick up the accent(though learned how to count in Spanish 😁). I also watched a lot of British kids programming and again didn't pick up the accents. I would reckon that mid atlantic thing is a more recent result of the internet and it being mostly American English. So people are more likely these days to say "store" rather than "shop" or "mom"* rather than "mam" or "mum"(UK influence) as examples and spellcheckers added more Zees over Sess's and so forth.

*apparently mom was a long standing thing in Cork, but it certainly wasn't in Dublin or Waterford. Now it's ubiquitous.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117986550#Comment_117986550

Depends what sort of job/ career you're looking for. No doubt that having a good level of Irish won't do you any harm if you're looking to work in the civil and public services here. Indeed that is one of the strategies of the language movement, to officialise the language and have the taxpayer pay to support a cohort of people who are Irish speakers. Understandable but I'm not sure if it's a great strategy in that if something is worthwhile doing, then it should stand on it's own legs and not need excessive state support. Otherwise it's a false & deluded position to be in.

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117987297#Comment_117987297

Like anything else it starts at home if parents spoke the language at home it would become ‘normal’ for people to speak the language. At the moment a person like yourself would not view an Irish language speaker (at any level) out and about as ‘normal’ but as an ‘Irish language enthusiast’. Which says a lot about how some view the language but that view the language on the fringes of the Irish language argument.

Which is an odd way of looking at it. There are Irish speakers of all levels in Ireland.

And have various levels of relationship with the Irish language. It is not simply ‘Irish language ethusiasts’

The problem is some don’t speak it anymore or or some speak it infrequently. But the majority don’t speak it as a community language.

The census from 2016 shows that 1.7m people around 40% of the people in the ROI claim to ‘speak’ Irish.

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-cp10esil/p10esil/ilg/

In my opinion, If people in the ROI were serious about the Irish language (rather than dancing around the edges and creating veneers such as Irish language signage) there should be a revamp of the Irish education system. All playschools should become Nionrai. And all primary and secondary schools would become Gaelscoileanna. Give it a number of decades after a period of transition and see what happens.

It would not stop English been used by parents in the home. Even Blanhnaid Ni Chofaigh’s husband does not speak Irish at home although he understands it!

Kids are not prevented from using English outside school. But it will at least make Irish more fun for students in their school setting as the focus would be on the spoken word. Which is natural.

But as seen in ‘Lig Dom’ on the RTE player.

https://www.rte.ie/player/movie/lig-liom/90131496385

Even kids brought up in Irish language immersion through school, revert to English with their mates outside school, But I wonder if the immersion at school level was more widespread would it happen less?

Wibbs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117987761#Comment_117987761

Unless I'm picking you up incorrectly you again seem to be making the assumption that many, even most Irish people are serious about it and actually want the Irish language as a community language. A century of its promotion and requirement in education and many careers in the past set against the precipitous drop off in its usuage in the wild would suggest they quite clearly don't. As you note kids who are immersed in it through education revert to English beyond the school gates. And they're obviously fluent in the language. Similar was seen when the civil service dropped the requirement to use it in the office, the majority dropped it overnight, and again they were fluent. What hope for those who aren't, or claim they use it because they know a cupla focal and tick the box on the census? If 40% of Irish people could actually speak Irish, we wouldn't be having this conversation. But they don't. I mean, I can still get the general gist reading Irish. I can get even more of a gist reading French, Spanish and Italian, even Latin. No way would I claim to be able to speak any of them.

The Irish language has general support among our population and few would want to see it die out, including myself, but that support is at some distance and more likely given as lip service as Bearla. It occupies an odd relationship with the majority. A sort of cultural museum piece, the Book of Kells as a language. We'd hate to see it go and are proud of it and happy to say that, but we might only view it a couple of times in our lifetime.

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117987981#Comment_117987981

I think Irish people just need the push/encouragement. If you start at a very young age and up, At least there is some sort of deeper foundation there. Like the way Irish kids of Polish parents can effortlessly switch between Polish and English.

Ok, Irish might not be a community language, if all education was done through Irish.

But at least it would have a better foundation than at present. Also it would result in an attitude change as a consequence.

Which is what the majority of Irish people want - preservation of the Irish language whether they speak it regularly or not.

The Book of Kell’s is actually a great parallel to most Irish peoples attitude to the Irish language sort of a pride at a distance.

Just to be clear I don’t believe the majority of the Irish people want Irish as a community language. But they would at least like the Irish language preserved or like to have a better grasp of the language.

Such things as the official languages act 2003 actually annoy me if I am honest. Not in the same way it annoys the OP. Who views it as some sort of ‘threat’.

It annoys me because it is putting ‘the cart before the horse’ and pretending everything is ‘iontach anois’. When it is far from wonderful,

I have seen signage in Irish and English for a long time in public institutions libraries, public swimming pools and hospitals etc.

Ok, I can check on the word for ‘sauna’ as gaeilge. And even enjoy reading the rules/instructions going into the sauna as gaeilge - if I wish.

But how many others would do that!? Another problem I find there is a pretence among some in the Irish media that xyz has Irish. It happened in the last general election listing TD’s who spoke Irish. It annoyed me.

There was no analysis of their level of fluency. My Irish is nowhere fluent but I am at a level where I can tell if the TD speaking it is natural or bluffing/winging it. Whereas someone with little Irish listening to the latter might think they fluent. Basically codding the vast majority of Irish people into thinking ‘aren’t they great!?’

There needs to be a more solid educational basis given to Irish for a start. And have all Irish people educated through the medium of Irish from 3 up.

It does not make any sense that this has not been tried, There are loads of people looking to be primary school teachers and not enough jobs, To be a primary school teacher you have to be proficient in the Irish language.

They could move to either Irish play school teaching or secondary school teaching.

Will it make Irish a community language- doubtful IMO

Will it improve attitudes and knowledge of/to the Irish language - yes IMO

A much better approach in the long term than only throwing signage around.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117988260#Comment_117988260

You're contradicting yourself there: you want to encourage people, but you want to force them to have their kids educated in Irish. You don't think they want it as a community language but you think they're willing to have their kids educated in it - at possible stress and detriment to said education - in order to achieve it.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117988260#Comment_117988260

You're quite entitled to hold that view, it's as good and valid as mine or any other citizen. I think though the truth of the matter lies closer to Wibbs summary above;

'The Irish language has general support among our population and few would want to see it die out, including myself, but that support is at some distance and more likely given as lip service as Bearla. It occupies an odd relationship with the majority. A sort of cultural museum piece, the Book of Kells as a language. We'd hate to see it go and are proud of it and happy to say that, but we might only view it a couple of times in our lifetime.'

Winding the clock back 100 years maybe in the case of the west or 2-300 years in case of much of Leinster is a pretty tough task. At best maybe being an 'Irish language enthusiast' is as good as you can expect. I'll play a few tunes tonight, a few reels & jigs and that's fine. But I don't expect my neighbours etc to have much interest, if they do well & good but the reality is that in most cases, their eyes would glaze over after a few minutes. Just not their thing.

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117988431#Comment_117988431

But you have to ask why there is this ‘odd relationship’? The OP of this thread seemed at a loss as to why they viewed Irish signage as a threat.

Ok, there are some on the fringes of the Irish population who view Irish as a ‘dead language’. Which is a throwback from over three generations ago when English was discouraged and Irish was viewed as the ‘language of the poor’.

On the other extreme there are others who correct every fada. Or want the Kerry car registration to start with ‘C’ Because there is no ‘K’ in Irish.

But there is a clear middle ground who are ‘untapped’ as regards the Irish language. It basically is a result of the education system in Ireland and extreme attitudes on both the fringes of the Irish language debate.

The example of music used above is a false one IMO. As not everyone plays music never mind a certain kind of music.

But everyone communicates. If Irish was the primary language of education mediums it would ‘unlock’ many peoples barrier to Irish.

As Ming Flanagan said the way forward is to have fun with Irish. Use/speak it. It suddenly becomes more relevant.

The use of the Irish language does not stop people participating in past time’s of their interest. In fact doing pastimes through Irish - improves Irish language levels.

If used correctly as a language naturally it can be used with ANY pastime, or event. That is the difference between Irish and a hobby such as music.

I know of one actor in Ros na Run. Who is born and reared with Irish. But bristles at being called a ‘gaeilgoir’. As it implies negative connotations, some of which already have been implied directly or indirectly on this thread.

I was informed that this actor thinks of themselves as an Irishman who happens to speak Irish.

That is the difference Irish is not supposed to be a cause or hobby. It is a language a way of communicating in a much different manner to English. A turn of phrase and way of thinking.

For many it is only waiting to be unlocked. It is just the approach that has been incorrect. Immersion at a young age in education would likely see a massive change in ‘the odd relationship’ for the better IMO.

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117986343#Comment_117986343

Because it is dancing around the edges a pretence. A sign in Irish although nice for some to see, and a curiosity for others does not solve the fundamental problem. Irish has lack of immersion and usage.

If the focus was on education through Irish from toddler though secondary school it would make much more sense. Ok it might not result in a Irish as community language, But it would at least give more of a solid foundation and could change mindsets.

Those Chinese lads have the right idea. Look at Confucius Institute in UCD. Education is key.

https://www.cii.ie/

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117986461#Comment_117986461

This is just a definition really. It is true that native language is generally described as that language learned at home. Historical language maybe a better fit.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117988960#Comment_117988960

For the third time - you can not hijack education for the pupose of immersion and expect people to go along with it. the purpose of education is to educate, not help revive a language; and people want to see their kids educated in a stress-free manner.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117987981#Comment_117987981

While all that is true, it's not really to the thread. The op is worried that Irish is becoming widespread because :

"My university now sends me emails that are bilingual - sometimes with the texts side by side, sometimes with the Irish text first - with Irish often appearing in the subject line. The signs for lecture theatres have just this year been replaced to include Irish. A new student space is called 'Zón Mac Leinn'. 

The Dart now makes announcements in Irish first. Signage in Pearse Dart station has been replaced giving Irish more prominence.

All council signs, such as those relating to pandemic restrictions, are bilingual, with the Irish appearing to the left or above the English.

The Lighthouse cinema is running a festival called Samhain na mBan, which is celebrating woman in horror.

"

So the mere appearance of the Irish language in emails, more prominences in signs, announcements on Darts ( where its always been in Irish first as far as I recall). And he's even annoyed by a private enterprise - the lighthouse theatre - using Irish. I am sure it has used French for French movies before. Maybe even some movies were given their French title.

Can't say I've seen much of this. Now if Irish were to replace English fully I'd be gathering the posse myself.

ireallydontknow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117986169#Comment_117986169

The time has finally come to block you. Labour on in whatever delusions you like.

whisky_galore

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117988260#Comment_117988260

There has been 'pushing' for the guts of a century, the beating, the cajoling, goodies and supports for ever shrinking Gaeltachts, Gaelscoils, the lame attempts at making it hip and sexy, and to what end?

It's funny that it's a thing that the majority of the population want, but not bothered about doing anything themselves on a personal level. Like the old Simpsons quote "can't someone else do it?" Can the govt not revive Irish for me so I won't have to break a sweat?

The kids of Polish parents will quite likely go back and forth to Poland where Polish is spoken from from top to bottom everyday and no doubt they'll use it to speak to grandparents with poor or no English. This is practical application, not a language as a museum piece to be dusted off occasionally.

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117988978#Comment_117988978

Changing a countries main language has worked through education has worked perfectly through other languages. Most notably English which used other methods as well as education but the point still stands.

The fact you view Education through the Irish language a ‘hijacking’ is revealing as to your mindset. It does not physically harm anyone. People are still being educated. It is just the medium which changes. From your use of the word ‘hijack’ it immediately becomes apparent that you are on a sort of fringe element of the Irish language debate - similar to the OP.

If there is a minority that would rally against fair enough. In my view it would help solve the Irish language problem at the moment while simultaneously routing out those, who are barriers to any attempt at improving spoken Irish in Ireland. You and like minded individuals could create privately run schools. While the state schools could be run through the medium of Irish 3 to 18.

Unlike you for instance a child has no baggage against the Irish language or odd hang ups. Has to be done at a young age and make it completely free. Real free education no voluntary contributions. Really stress free. Let it run for 20 years then review the results.

Much better approach than the farce/pretence of Irish signage.