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The creeping prominence of the Irish language
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Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,170 Mod ✭✭✭✭
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That's a huge part of the problem. That and the assumption by some of the Irish speaking community that the rest of their fellows would love to speak it if only we did [insert plan of action here]. It won't work. We have seen that over the last century of trying, the community use dropped consistently over that time no matter what resources, time, effort and money we threw at it over several generations. The proof of the pudding is in the eating. Even today with the growth over the last couple of decades of education through the language, the kids revert to their actual "native" language outside the school gates. Kids are many things but they also tend to practical and honest and tend not to have formed biases based on politics of history. Indeed I would say if Gormdubh's idea of push/encouragment was attempted it would give rise to as much resentment as progress. The way many of us were pushed/encouraged to study the language in our formative school years certainly didn't help many, if not most. If it did we'd have a hell of a lot more actual Irish speakers today. And we don't.
For the hobbyists there's the other blindpsot, their understandable love for the language internal to them. It's common enough for those in love to feel others feel it too and if they don't it's only because they're not really opening themselves up(or there's something inherently wrong with them). There are lots of things I'd be enthusiastic about, but I would assume, or indeed presume that others would be equally enthused about them.
The Polish example also highlights another issue with the language. How would I put this? OK Irish is internally practical to itself. Its use is for many a much loved hobby(and nothing wrong with ithat), something internally and at times artificially sustained, even within actual native speakers to some degree, certainly outside the home. Polish and fully fluent Polish with it is externally practical in all aspects of life for nearly forty million people. Polish was under threat from Russian twice in the last couple of centuries and yet it didn't take among the Polish people. There's no real comparison.
Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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Note nowhere did I say ban the use of English. I have merely suggested that education through the medium of Irish is the simple and most practical/obvious answer from 3-18.
Plus have it heavily subsidised and incentivised. I realise that some of the minority like the OP would run scared.
But it is far more practical a solution than the Offical Languages Acts. It would achieve a change in mindset on the Irish language. Not just a superficial appearance.
It is the only practical way I can think of reversing centuries of negative attitudes towards the Irish Language. Which has lead us to the current no mans land.
Look at how Irish was treated historically as far back as the 1300’s
1367 Statue of Kilkenny - English people were barred from using the local language in Ireland. It was illegal for them to use it.
The Statue of Ireland in 1537 prohibited the use of Irish in parliament.
In 1541 the use of Irish was banned in areas of English rule
In 1737 Irish usage was banned in Ireland in the courts. There was also a fixed penalty for its usage on legal documents
After the Penal laws were repealed there was a further change.
From the link above -
‘When the law was repealed, Catholics were free to join the professions, so they had better opportunities if they spoke English.
Teaching English to children became widely popular among Irish-speaking families as they saw it as a requirement for their progress in life’
Hedge schools also resulted vim the decline of the Irish language among the poor.’
‘There were hedge schools in the Irish countryside that taught Catholic children who were unable to attend government schools that were Protestant.
‘English was one of the most requested subjects in these schools. So, the decline of the Irish language is partly the result of the Irish trying to speak like the ruling class.’
—
So my suggestion is merely a chance to correct the above through education. It is not that radical a suggestion to use Irish as the medium for education. It should be no problem to implement at Preschool and Primary level. Maybe a bit of teething problems at secondary level.
But give it twenty years and see what happens. For those parents who wish to opt out. Homeschooling is already permitted by law.
And there is nothing to stop individuals who do not from setting up private institutions of education in any language of their choice. English, Polish whatever. If there is enough demand. But the key is having state run schools completely through the medium of Irish.
Much better results are possible than any auld signage in Irish or a couple of emails.
Guff about stuff, and stuff about guff.
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Again - you're contradicting yourself by assuming that everyone wants an Irish speaking community - something you yourself accepted wasn't the case.
Also, switching the language of an entire education system for hundreds of thousands of kids is not like like a light switch. How are you going to being in a a new syllabus for every subject right up to Leaving Cert? How are you going to recruit the teachers who can teach leaving cert subjects in Irish to the same standard as English?
Not every parent wants it and not every kid is going to adapt as easily as you think. They're not going to be "physcially" hurt - well, that's nice, but do you about other sorts of pain? Simple things like how will they get help with their homework in a language their parents don't speak?
Of course it's hijacking. You're main goal is the language, not the education. And certainly not the kids well-being.
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Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,170 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Join Date:Posts: 59098
Changing a countries main language has worked through education has worked perfectly through other languages. Most notably English which used other methods as well as education but the point still stands.
Yep and in pretty much every case outside of modern Hebrew it was because of colonialism and force. Artifcially imposing a language change - and it would be artifficial and it would be forced - is hardly a great thing to repeat is it?
And it often backfired, like in some of the former Soviet Bloc nations where they tried that with Russian. It didn't take. The Spanish tried it with Basque and that didn't take either. We've already tried it here from the foundation of the state with compulsary Irish in education and in the past many careers and it didn't take. Where such impositions did take mostly again by conquest and in colonies like Africa and the New World with Spanish, French and English it took because the imposed language was already the language of business and higher education and art and power and the locals saw, had to see the practicalities. In the case of Hebrew it worked because they required a lingua franca for the new nation because of the Jewish diaspora showing up speaking a babel of languages from the nations they'd come from. At one point even German had been in the running, but for all too obvious reasons that died a death after WW2. Ireland and the Irish don't need a lingua franca they have one and it's the most commonly spoken one on the planet.
Unlike you for instance a child has no baggage against the Irish language or odd hang ups.
Indeed they don't and yet what language are they most likely to use beyond those gaelscoil gates? Those same no baggage kids know the actual score.
Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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It is not forced though merely incentivised to change a mindset. Outside the school gates kids may still use English, true. What with the American based internet etc, But at least it will me kids will have a solid basis of Irish spoken naturally at school. And over time over the decades Irish will be mixed interchangeably with English - more and more outside the school gates. It could take three generations. By sheer volume of numbers.
But it would be much better than the artificial way Irish is taught in English medium schools.
By right it should have been done since the foundation of the state. At the very least after the Irish civil servants rose through the ranks and replaced the British.
Irish signage in emails and stuff - waste of time on its own. All it does is unearth those who have an inbuilt bias against the Irish language regardless.
Such people can set up their English medium based schools if they wish privately, under my different suggestion.
Guff about stuff, and stuff about guff.
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Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,170 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Join Date:Posts: 59098
Note nowhere did I say ban the use of English. I have merely suggested that education through the medium of Irish is the simple and most practical/obvious answer from 3-18.
If you believe the majority of Bearla speaking Irish people want that imposed on them and their kids and it would be an artificial imposition. Put that to a referendum if you dare.
Plus have it heavily subsidised and incentivised. I realise that some of the minority like the OP would run scared.
The taxpayers would have to pay for that and we already spend many millions every year on the language, much of that is cultural window dressing and we've spent billions on it over the last century and here we are having this conversation as Bearla.
Look at how Irish was treated historically as far back as the 1300’s
Yep and yet it stayed in rude health beyond the Pale and even within it well into the 1700's. To the degree that for praticality's sake the English queen Lizzie the First ordered an Irish language bible to try and spread Protestantism in Ireland(and may have gotten a couple of lessons in the language herself. Unusual among that line of mostly inbreds she was bloody clever and was translating Latin and Greek texts in her teens and could speak a few languages). And of course people wanted to get ahead in a nation that was at the time "British". That's how languages change and often die. It's how Irish/Scots Gaelic swamped Pictish out back in the day. It's how Latin and its evolved romance languages did it. It's a mixture of the carrot and the stick. The stick being the laws against a language, the carrot the practical everyday advantages a language brings. The problem is your solution of "push/encouragement" for Irish doesn't have that carrot, it only has the stick and that's why it wouldn't work. It would be an expensive on a few levels top down imposed cultural experiment.
Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,170 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Join Date:Posts: 59098
It is not forced though merely incentivised to change a mindset.
They're weasle words IMHO. Incentivised, forced; bugger all practical difference between the two. Both are top down impositions on a populace, in this case for a language shift and bloody close to how English was "incentivised". As I say put it to a referendum and see the result. I'd be willing to bet the farm the result won't be one you'd like to see.
Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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There is no stick with my suggestion no banning of English. Just state education through Irish. Easily done at preschool and primary school level a proliferation of people looking for primary school jobs who have passed the Irish exam.
It might be more difficult at secondary level bar other languages as Physics, Maths etc are specialised. But I would argue that it would actually SAVE money in the long term. No more money thrown at the Irish language for the sake of it - such as signage.
Colonial reversal on the Irish language might not work 100% but it would do a damn lot better than the current half assed attempt.
Plus bilingual kids will be more amenable to European languages such as French and Spanish. I don’t really see any disadvantage long term. Other than a few disgruntled anti Irish language people. But as proven by this thread they are always some like that anyway!
Your idea of a referendum on it is a good one. Put it in the Irish constitution - the state shall provide free Education through the medium of the Irish language.
I would find the result of such a vote interesting. and accept any result.
Guff about stuff, and stuff about guff.
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Interesting facts re. language and laws - thanks!
RE: All Irish education 3 - 18 - Whilst education plays a big role in language promotion - I certainly wouldn't favor having all Irish education accross the board. I think, given the rise in numbers attending Gaelscoileanna it would make sense to have more All Irish Meán Scoileanna (2ndary Schools) available , should parents wish. This in turn could have a knock-on effect in 3rd level - whereby subjects could be taught through Irish. Many teachers are brutal in teaching Irish (still) which can hinder the aim of having the Irish language enjoyable and fun.
Ultimately it is up to parents/children whether to get all Irish education or not.
However, in all schools Gaeilge is part and parcel of the curriculum. This is a good thing ... if, and only if the teachers teaching the language have a grá and a grasp of it. I'd be inclined to have specialist teachers for Gaeilge (like they had for modern languages in schools ...before that programme was axed). Specialist teachers would at least teach the subject well and in doing so, the class teacher would be picking up teaching skills with regard to Gaeilge and could expand upon it's usage informally throughout the day.
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My whole logic of Irish language medium education 3-18 would mean Irish is not a thing learnt artificially. Just naturally picked up. So it is used in a normal fashion. Put a little toddler in a Naonri - play school they are like sponges learning Irish through fun and song.
Primary school will be second nature. And the child will only be speaking learning Irish grammar after they have their spoken language which is much easier.
Admittedly secondary school would be more difficult to find competent teachers in specialised subjects through Irish. But over time but would become the norm.
Speaking Irish constantly at school breaks lunch time sport = fun. Normal life conversations.
If the money spent on current Irish signage was spent on even just state Irish playschools over the last 20 ish years what difference would it have made?
Guff about stuff, and stuff about guff.
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it is forced. Either you give families an opt-out (the status quo) or you force it.
Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.
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I already gave the opt out a reversal of the status quo.
Where English is currently the main medium of education (which was historically forced ironically)
To a ‘new normal’ Free State Irish Education through the medium of Irish.
And those who want the English medium/or other can set up non state schools privately funded. Or alternatively completely opt out and home school.
No forcing at all there.
Guff about stuff, and stuff about guff.
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So you're advocating a situation whereby the State is absolved of its' responsibility to provide an education in one of the official State langauges? Did not think you'd be a fan of that...
And it is forcing, if you wilfully provide only one option.
Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.
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I personally don't like the Irish language. I never did. I also think way too much money is wasted on it to artificially keep it alive. The official translation costs must be astronomical in government and EU.
I also think that Gaelscoils were initially created so that Irish parents could segregate their kids from foreigners.
What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?
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Making Irish mandatory in schools leads to a fair bit of the disdain shown towards it.
I barely scraped a pass mark in Junior Cert Ordinary level and did absolutely nothing for it in 5th year. More or less started studying about 2 months before the Leaving exam. Got the Pass mark and that was that for Irish.
I knew at the very start of 5th year I wasn't going to be including it in my marks by the time I got my results so it was the least important subject by some distance for me. Every other subject was prioritized way above it. Even failing it wouldn't have bothered me all that much.
It's only my story but I would safely say that over 70% of my Leaving Cert year showed the same indifference towards it.
Other than GAA on TG4 I've no interaction with it. I might annoy people saying it but I find the Irish language a nuisance.
Of the 30 hours or so in the school week 3 of them were devoted to something that turned out to be a complete waste. If it's status in schools was scrapped I would be very confident that time allocated to other subjects like in STEM would be hugely beneficial to students and leaving cert results.
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Its an idea…. but not enough competent teachers with Irish to implement across all schools. Can’t see that working. Certainly there seems plenty of demand for all Irish pre schools than there are spaces..
As an aside: re Irish Language Bill
Gov seeking written submissions on how a better service through Irish might be provided to the public.
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-The whole system is points driven. I’d imagine little time was given to conversational Irish/drama?
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I was in a gaelscoil/gaelcholaiste up until second year when my family moved and I switched to an English school. At the time I was better at conversational Irish than both of the Irish teachers I had there, they obviously had a better grasp of the technical parts, but 15+ years later I'd struggle put a sentence together, beyond the big three. If I actively studied it I could probably regain fluency but why? No one speaks it, there's no great films or TV series I'll miss out on, and I don't have much of an interests in reading the classics (in English or Irish). Take it off life support and let those that are interested pursue it and don't inflict it on those that aren't.
Switching the language your education is delivered in has its own issues, I had a lot of trouble trying to figure out what the first and second year maths questions were asking when we were revising for the Junior Cert. Luckily I was interested in science as a child so the English terms were familiar already.
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Therein lies the biggest problem - to most kids, it's a school subject and not a language.
Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.
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Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,170 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Join Date:Posts: 59098
There is no stick with my suggestion no banning of English. Just state education through Irish. Easily done at preschool and primary school level a proliferation of people looking for primary school jobs who have passed the Irish exam.
Which would be an imposition of language for cultural/political ends. As you term it "colonial reversal".
But I would argue that it would actually SAVE money in the long term. No more money thrown at the Irish language for the sake of it - such as signage.
Adding Irish to signage costs feck all and all the current money thrown around would still be in play after your great reset, so no savings there. However you'd have to completely revamp the curriculum, print books etc and find and train teachers to a fluency standard in short order. That would cost extra big money, mucho effort and take time.
Colonial reversal on the Irish language might not work 100% but it would do a damn lot better than the current half assed attempt.
The question remains as always; why bother? The Irish people as a majority haven't been bothered for over a century, the requirement for Irish has actually been dialled back in that time as has the language itself and has been on life support or in the hands of enthusiasts. Irish language schools have been one of the few more recent pluses in the whole affair and even there they account for just under 200 out of over 3000 primary schools in the country. The percentage of secondary schools is even smaller.
And why do you think the atempts are half arsed and have been so and have actually reduced over the last few decades? The will of the people quite simply just isn't there. At best they're happy to tick the Irish box on a census because they have the cupla focal that would embarrass a native speaking toddler, or would express a generalised "ah sure I'd hate to see it die out", but beyond that it again lays in the mouths of the enthusiast and hobbyist and a small number of actual native speakers. Never mind that I can't think of a single language that has come back from the levels of fluency in the population that Irish has to a community language. Even Welsh which has come back in recent decades never dropped below 40 odd percent in fluent daily speakers at the start of the 20th century and even so currently the percentage is more like 20 odd percent speakers. It still dropped. Hebrew was indeed a success but for very different reasons than exist in Ireland.
Your idea of a referendum on it is a good one. Put it in the Irish constitution - the state shall provide free Education through the medium of the Irish language.
I would find the result of such a vote interesting. and accept any result.
I can't see such a vote any time soon, but if it happened I'll lay bets now it wouldn't pass.
Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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I was interested to note that the British Government seems to be preparing to table an Acht na Gaeilge for the North (or a Bille na Gaeilge to be more accurate) at Westminster despite the continued opposition of the DUP and the TUV. It's a welcome move, though how effective it is will depend on (a) whether they actually follow through and pass the legislation, and (b) whether the content of the legislation is up to scratch. But given the stalemate in the Executive and the Assembly it needs to be done.
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*apparently mom was a long standing thing in Cork, but it certainly wasn't in Dublin or Waterford. Now it's ubiquitous.
The American pronunciation of "mom" came from Ireland. It is an Anglicised version of the Irish words "mam", "mamó", or "mamaí". The "a" in those words is pronounced more like an English "o". Other familiar Irish words with that sound include madra, magadh, fada, and cat. The first "a" in those words will sound more like an "o" among Connacht and Munster speakers, but a wee bit more like an English "a" as you move up towards Donegal.
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Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,170 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Join Date:Posts: 59098
IIRC and I probably don't to be fair isn't Welsh the only protected minority language within the UK? I don't think Cornish or Scots Gaelic is, though like I say I'm likely wrong there.
Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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The Irish language movement in the North seems to be far better organised than the south. There seems to be a greater confidence with regard to using and promoting the language.
As an aside, recently I became aware the life story of the singer Albert Fry as Béal Feirste. His music and singing was popular in Europe. I found it interesting how connecting to his roots inspired him to learn Irish in Rann na Feirste (with his school days behind him) he gained great proficiency in it. He had a tough life but brought beauty into it with his music (which reminds me of Hawaii with the nylon stringed guitar!)
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I have a novel solution......... let's have a public referendum on the matters you raise and the type of linguistic society that you propose and then we'll find out????
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Scots Gaelic is recognised under the Good Friday Agreement - I'd imagine it is recognised.
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I gcead do @gormdubhgorm, I can't go along with the notion of an all-Irish education system. That's partly because it feeds the prejudices of the noisy Anglos, and partly because I just don't think it's the right way to do it. Mind you, as someone with an interest in History it's enjoyable to watch otherwise intelligent and rational people tell you that you mustn't deploy anything like the same tactics which led to *checks notes* them speaking the language they speak.
What I would like to see is a development of the Gaeltacht scheme commenced in Richard Bruton's time as Education Minister - but on speed. In that scheme, schools in Gaeltacht areas voluntarily signed up to teach Irish in a certain way and with certain rules (e.g. no English at all in the infant classes). In return, they got some additional resources. I'd like to see that extended and ramped up. By extended, I mean made available to both Gaeltacht and Galltacht Irish-medium schools, with an incentive to persuade other (and new) schools to operate as Gaelscoileanna. The scheme would also need to be made available in the Early Years sector. By ramped up, I mean that the level of additional resources being put in should be big enough to make it worth the schools' effort to make the changes they'd have to make, and also that additional training and learning resources would be made available to the whole school community so that the Irish competence of families would be improved along with the pupils in the school.
If a scheme like that was well enough designed and took hold so that a reasonably high percentage of schools were operating it, this would embed Gaeilge in the school system, improving both the numbers learning the language and the standard of their education. At that point, this would create the right circumstances to show that an incentivising approach works, which means the government would be in a position to remove the mandatory status of Gaeilge in the system. Those who want the mandatory status removed wouldn't object. In the case of those who would object, the government could point them in the direction of a real-life effective working alternative. Winners all round, surely?
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Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,170 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Join Date:Posts: 59098
Citations please Uly and not from an Irish langauge source if possible.
Wiki reckons this:
Mother. Mom is sporadically regionally found in the UK (e.g., in West Midlands English). Some British and Irish dialects have mam,[111] and this is often used in Northern English, Hiberno-English, and Welsh English. Scottish English may also use mam, ma, or maw. In the American region of New England, especially in the case of the Boston accent the British pronunciation of mum is often retained, while it is still spelled mom. In Canada, there are both mom and mum; Canadians often say mum and write mom.[112] In Australia and New Zealand, mum is used.[Emphasis mine]
The reason I question this is because while I have no doubt it was a regional thing in some places here it very much seems to be something attested to after the fact as an explanation for mom going from feck all in the Irish lexicon to everywhere else. I've seen "mom" creep into UK based forums and the like too and that sure as hell didn't come via Gaelige. Growing up in Dublin and indeed absorbing Irish media in general; ma, mam, the mammy was by far the most commonly heard, mum for the D4 types with notions. Gay Byrne on the Late Late "is the mammy in the audience" type of thing. Actually I remember him or another Irish presenter getting into a bit of flak over asking an African American guest that "where's the mammy" question(a very different connotation for a Black American). Didn't Brendan O'Carroll write a book/play/skit called "The Mammy"? Not "The Mommy". I also remember reading a book of Billy Connelly's where he made a joke(barely) of the American "Mom" that it was "Wow" upside down and him being of a Scots Irish background. I have a quite distinct experience from when I was about 16 of knowing a lass whose parents were Irish but she grew up in the States and came back with them in her teens and her quite naturally using the American "mom", followed by some gentle slagging for it by us. At about the level of "does she make you moooom's apple pie" type stuff. It stood out as a sound. A sound of not local. Today it wouldn't raise an eyelash, never mind a brow. Put it another way; in all the ye olde stuff of Irish people speaking on the interwebs and youtube, try and find anyone Irish saying "mom" pre 1990. And they certainly weren't saying "going to the store", unless it was Dunnes and that was in the plural. So yeah, I don't buy the "mom is a national Irish" thing, unless you're hailing from parts of West Cork or wherever.
Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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That I can certainly see the merit of alright Uly. It's far more practicable.
Mind you, as someone with an interest in History it's enjoyable to watch otherwise intelligent and rational people tell you that you mustn't deploy anything like the same tactics which led to *checks notes* them speaking the language they speak.
I am against those tactics merely because a) they don't work unless the language promoted is already in wider cultural, intellectual and economic ascendency, b) it's bloody expensive, c) it's more political than cultural, and d) it's the same cultural imposition, but from some minority agreed "correct" one, but mostly because it's largely unworkable.
Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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Gàidhlig is an official language in Scotland under an Act of the Scottish Parliament. It is recognised as an indigenous language under the European minority languages charter (as ratified by the UK in the early 1990s), and promoted by an executive agency called Bòrd na Gàidhlig. The legislation gives that Board the objective of "securing the status of the Gaelic language as an official language of Scotland commanding equal respect to the English language".
Scots (a cousin of English descended from Middle English) doesn't have the same legislative status as Gàidhlig in Scotland (AFAIK), but it is also recognised as an indigenous language under the European charter.
Manx (Gaelg) is a very close relative of both Gaeilge and Gàidhlig. It doesn't have a status in IoM law, but it is recognised in the European charter. Manx is taught as a second language in all primary and secondary schools on the IoM, and there is one all-Manx primary school (or, in Gaelg, Bunscoill Ghaelgagh)
Cornish (Kernowek) is also recognised by the European charter, though with a different status. There is some dispute as to whether the language is officially extinct or critically endangered. The language doesn't have an official status in English law, but in general the local council supports its use. Mind you, there was some local controversy a few months ago when the council refused to carry out a wedding ceremony in Cornish, because the law in England and Wales only allows wedding services in English and Welsh.
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Bhuail mé le hAlbert lá amháin breis is daichead bliain ó shin. I met Albert once over 40 years ago.
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An bhuil cad agam dul go di on leithreas? Lol
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At the risk of labouring the point, most Irish people are well aware of the devastating effects of the Famine on Ireland, not just in the 1840s but for over a century afterwards. Most Irish people would accept that this was, for want of a better expression, not a good thing. Very few Irish people I've ever met are aware that the significant majority of those who died or left Ireland in those decades were Irish speakers. Without that violent history, the Irish language would be in far better health nowadays, and would probably be living in a much healthier and respectful co-existence with English, more akin to that seen in other modern European countries. That's not the fault of the noisy Anglos, but reading the way they go on about English and Irish in Ireland you'd swear that English was adopted by us in a relaxed and friendly fashion, or gifted to us by a higher and more advanced civilisation, neither of which is the case. So while I don't agree with the education suggestion from @gormdubhgorm, at least he's not actually advocating the kind of violence that got us here.
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Smaointe suimiúla -
..additional training and learning resources would be made available to the whole school community so that the Irish competence of families would be improved along with the pupils in the school.
Supporting parents is seriously overlooked when it comes to Irish. They are unintentionally left as outliers. Parents who lack confidence in Irish but
a. wish to use it with their children
b. wish to support their children in learning it-
should get regular support & guidence if they wish.
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That has already being suggested by another poster - Wibbs I think it was. It certainly would be an interesting debate I think. Given the 'status' that Irish is supposed to be afforded as per the Irish constitution.
Incidentally Wibbs said that they would not find such a debate interesting. And implied any referendum would be hammered against introducing education through Irish.
I think it would make the Irish people wake up regarding the Irish language one way or another. And it is far more serious an issues than much less unimportant issues such as the age permitted for President. Or whether the Seanad should be abolished.
It is the superficial symbolism of things like signage that annoys me. It is not really prominent from a cultural standpoint. It looks nice but still places Irish in the background. It is a look we are doing something lads type of thing.
The same thing up in NI disgusting how the Irish language is being used as political football by both sides. Oneside looking for superficial 'status' and rarely speaking it. The other having a panic attack at the sight of fada. But they love their symbolism in NI that is just the way it is up there.
Some would actually be dancing in the streets if they got such 'prominence' that the Irish language has in the ROI. But I think it is designed to by people who want to look like they are 'doing something' for the Irish language.
How is that going to get more people to speak the Irish language that is a much more practical problem. Instead of mere symbolism. What is the point of mere symbolism alone? IMO is a delusion, a cod.
In the ROI there should be much more freedom with the Irish language in terms of education changes etc. Compared to the messing that is going in NI
Even at all playschools level for a start do it through Irish. Make them Naonri's.
Basic stories, songs and words in Irish. It is not nuclear physics.
No real curriculum at that level or millions needed to be spent for kids that age.
Post edited by gormdubhgorm onGuff about stuff, and stuff about guff.
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I wouldn't like to say that I don't have an English citation. I do have a bilingual note somewhere given to me a few years ago by someone who lectured in UCC at the time, but I can't put my hands on it, and I'm not going looking for English sources online. In any case I couldn't recall the references (if any) on the note. The lecturer claimed that "mom" appeared in New York in the latter part of the 19th century and then spread elsewhere, and that the source of that pronunciation was (or included) the many Irish speakers in the city. That said, he was a lecturer in Irish, so he probably wouldn't meet your citation requirements in any case.
I only have an Irish-language source (technically bilingual) for the Irish pronunciations of words like "mam", "mamó" and "magadh".
Eastern Irish people wouldn't have said "mom" - not in the 20th century and not in the 19th. Even in the West, the pronunication got more like "mam" the further North you went. In "the Pale" English was so well-established by the time of the Famine that "mom" wouldn't have featured, so it's hardly a surprise that Dublin has the widest "a" pronunciation of all. It would therefore be a shock if a Dublin-based or Dublin-raised person nowadays used "mom". I've a few mates (not all Irish speakers) from Galway, Cork and Kerry who use "mom" all the time, and they'd be in their 50s.
It's not clear why you're referring to "store".
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On your point about no real curriculum or millions needed for the naíonraí. Educational materials for the early childhood sector would be needed - but they've already been developed so there's no extra cost. The one thing that could be a barrier is that a lot of the staff would be less qualified and lower paid than in schools. That causes problems regardless of language (recruitment and retention of staff). But things are tougher for Irish-language services because often anyone with the right standard of Gaeilge will have a higher general education standard, usually accompanied by a higher qualification level, which means they're more likely to be already employed in a higher paying job. I'd say that Irish-language childcare and pre-school services find it a bit harder than their English-language counterparts to recruit and keep staff.
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Many teachers who teach Irish have no love for it I studied irish for 5 years we just had books and story's to read it was not even slightly interesting it's well known you can't force everyone to speak a language just by putting it on a school curriculum today I say a large sign electronic display I have no idea what the ad said as it was all in Irish which I can't understand we are not the USA we can't print money 10 million spent on Irish means less money for other subjects money for nurses special needs teachers
I have maybe 2 sentences in Irish after 5 years no one ever asked us to speak Irish I went to school in the 80s
Irish was just a waste of time for me to be honest young people consume diverse media tik Tok YouTube streaming apps etc 99 per cent in English i can't remember the last trad group after Clannad who played Irish music I think young people realise I have loads of work options and whether I'm good at Irish will likely make no difference in my life prospects vocation unless I want to be a teacher I think young people are concerned about climate change the housing crisis
Irish revival s not high on their list of prioritys
I can't imagine a private company spending 1000s of euros on digital ads in Irish that might cannot be understood by 90 per cent of the public i use YouTube i have no social media accounts don't like Facebook or insta so I don't know what s going on there, there's probably x amount of Irish language speakers there and maybe x amount of polish people there as reflects the ratio of population of people who live here, maybe I'm missing out but I don't like Facebook policy's see no need to use it what annoys me is extra spending going on Irish when we need more money spent on homelessness or changing our policys to reduce climate change we have limited budgets and resources to spend
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Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,170 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Join Date:Posts: 59098
Oh I think we're all very well aware of the tragic history that led to Irish suffering the mortal wound it did. Violent histories are part and parcel of many if not most languages decline and indeed rise. The Romance languages in Europe an obvious one. English, Spanish and Portuguese in the Americas, English, French and Portuguese in parts of Africa and a load of native languages dying out because of them. I mean we wouldn't be speaking English if a bunch of western European lowlanders hadn't invaded England and got stabby with the local Britons. If Anglo speaking Britons hadn't pushed back against later invaders we could well be speaking a descendant of Norman French. Languages are fossil records of conquest and live or die by the sword, the purse and the book. It is what it is and here we are today.
Today. That's the thing. It happened, the language was sidelined. That it survives at all is a good thing. However supporting that survival is a tad different to retconning the language and tacking it onto modern Ireland. That's a cultural/political imposition born of healing some old hurt. We're also quite different to the other modern European countries as far as language relationships go. Their languages never declined to near the degree that Irish did. Not even close. There was strong continuity throughout. English where present is a useful add on because of its status as an international language. We already speak it natively. If we were to do a comparison that fits better we would be adding something like Spanish classes to the curriculum.
"Store" is an Americanism that has gained ground in recent years, just like "mom" and you certainly hear it nowadays in Dublin. The younger the speaker, the more likely you will hear it. A friend of mine also in his fifties and born and bred in the Dublin of the "mas" and "mams" says "mom" now because his kids do. And fair enough, languages and accents change over time. It's what they do. It's the retroactive cultural explanations I don't buy. The simplest and most logical answer is that it's the massive influence of American media that has caused this change, just like "store" has started to squeeze out "shop"(and just like the English "mum" had taken root with some in the past), no Irish language reason required. That UCC lecturer's notion smells of similar cultural reasoning. No doubt we could dig up a Dutch, Italian, Swedish, German, or Jewish expert who might claim it came from their diaspora. Thet tend to fight over these things. 😁 Swedish is "mom" for example and they had a big influence in American culture. Indeed given how large the Irish American diaspora was and is the number of loan words into American English is small in comparison to loan words from Yiddish for example and what loan words there are like clock, brogue, whiskey, bog, smithereens and the like were already in British English before American and likely tagged a ride on the Mayflower. It is a fascinating subject though.
Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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'The creeping prominence of the Irish language', the OP's original argument was that Irish is becoming more prominent, with hints of some kind of sinister implications.
I have been exposed to Irish for the past 50 years from a starting point of being an English only speaker, and whatever about my other abilities I do not have any facility for languages other than English. I really don't think that Irish is being pushed on the public any more than it ever was. There were always announcements in Irish on the trains, translations of government documents, an ability to do government business in Irish, an Irish news broadcast, introductions to most public speeches, including at local events, in Irish, road signs etc. I never found any of this a burden, and many a car journey had discussions about the accuracy or otherwise of place name translations - I could not put an Irish sentence together but I do know enough words to translate a good number of place names, or make a guess at what the news headlines were.
I recall from years back American tourists complaining on Trip Advisor about place names in Irish and how confusing it was. Then there was a recent contribution from a tourist who said that Irish roads were unnecessarily winding and since we depended so much on tourism it behoved us to straighten them out. Both had it pointed out to them that this was what Ireland was, and why people came here, not directly for the Irish or the windy roads, but because they contributed to the character of the country, and even superficial investigation would show how they related to the culture and the history of the place.
I do think that Irish should be a more voluntary subject in schools so that people who wanted to learn it could do so with more interest and enthusiasm than having to plod along at the level imposed by the reluctant students. I was also very frustrated when I was trying to get a bus in a Dublin suburb, I was tired and getting a bit desperate as I could not find a taxi and needed to get to the train station, but all the buses that I saw had their destinations entirely in Irish and I could not figure out which bus I needed. Not a sign of an 'an lár', and the listings on the bus stops were no more helpful.
Generally though I am not seeing any 'creeping prominence', but if there were, what harm?
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Reading this thread has shown me how Irish has 'died ' even since my youth (80's90's). There used to be shops , normally sweet shops/ small convenience shops, that would have a Siopá ? sign outside to indicate Irish was welcome to use as the language.
Alot of towns had similar shops. I don't see them now.
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Your words about colonial history and languages are fine, and probably even accurate (I gave them a speed-read, TBH), but not relevant to the point I was making. Whatever the history was, you were still wrong to draw an equivalence between the proposal made by @gormdubhgorm and the imperialist violence that led to the suppression of Irish.
Likewise, I'm as familiar as anyone with "store". But I never referenced the word. I've never given much thought to where it comes from or why it gets used the way it does, whereas I was once given an explanation and a note by someone about the word "mom", which is why I mentioned it.
When using pejorative language to dismiss other views, it's a good idea to avoid writing something that itself isn't backed up by any sources and that gives off a strong pong of particular cultural reasoning and a specific cultural mindset. If you want to dig up experts that's up to you - ar ndóigh, ní cead ach foinsí scríofa san Ollainnis, san Iodáilis, sa tSualainnis, sa Ghearmáinis, nó san Eabhrais (nó fiú amháin sa Ghiúdais).
Word and expression "origin stories" can be interesting. In my experience, however, discussions of that nature tend to become bogged down in definitions and descriptions of jynnan tonnyx.
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Such shops where they're still actually open are being covered in generic corporate plastic these days. Centra-fication.
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While the English were utter bastards in how they operated in this nation "imperialist violence" is stretching things a tad regarding the language. The good old Catholic church pushed English, the great liberator himself Daniel O’Connell while fluent in Irish and expressing regret at its likely demise also pushed english as an advantage and before the Famine too. Catholic Emancipation also encouraged the use of english to get ahead. The English(well, after the Normans anyway) came here by sword and pike and blood bringing their language with them, but its demise was just as much down to basic economics and increased opportunity among Irish people themselves. If the French had invaded us we'd be speaking French. They followed this trend among the diaspora too. Dropping it like a hot rock at the gates of Ellis Island and as has been noted those Irish people were almost entirely from Irish speaking areas. It would have been easy for them to keep it going to a much greater degree, but they didn't. Then we kicked London out for good and even with all the promotion and incentives it still kept dropping in use. Even kids schooled and fluent in the language revert to english beyond the school gates. How quickly would TG4's viewership drop if they got rid of english subtitles?
The problem I see is that the enthusiasts for the language like yourself and Gorm assume a similar active enthusiasm for the language among the rest of the Irish population and want its return as a community language when the clear evidence in front of us strongly suggests quite the opposite is in play. If the 40% that claim on the census to be Irish speakers actually existed we wouldn't be having this conversation, nor would we require top down imposed cultural revivals. One only needs to revive something that's dying. CPR is of no use to those in rude health. People vote with their feet and their tongues and it seems that vote is in.
I am not against supporting the language, especially in areas where it is still spoken. Nor am I against support for those enthusiasts in it. I am against wasting even more time, money and effort to have some top down imposed artificial cultural revival where it's not needed nor asked for by the people of this nation.
PS I don't know where you're getting "perjorative language" from? I can do perjorative language til the cows come home and that wasn't it. Oh and there's a rule on this site that anything(outside of language specific forums) not written in english is to have a translation, regardless of the language. Though that rule came in on the back of some Irish speakers who wanted to be obtuse or to make a point. Now I can get the gist of that line, but I'd bet the farm a majority reading your post wouldn't without recourse to online translation. Which is another sign of the general lack of comprehension around the langauge.
Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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I'd be more concerned about signposts only being in irish in some parts of the country
Or the creeping yankification, you're not a mommy you're a mammy or a mum FFS
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Maybe I did not make myself clear. In the Irish language debate I believe there are fringes such as the OP who for some reason feels threatened by the Irish language even something as benign as Irish signage. On the other side you have Irish language 'activists'. Which are the polar opposite to the OP.
But there is a middle ground in Ireland with are not 'enthusiasts' as you describe them or hobbyists - words/groupings you have used to conflate those with any interest in the Irish language at all.
I believe the middle ground in Ireland whether they speak the Irish language regularly or not are proud of it. Whether they speak it regularly or not much at all. Or even have no Irish. It is latent pride.
Just on the other poster saying that you used pejoratives. I assume that poster you refer to in the above post means words such as 'hobbyists' and 'enthusiasts'. Which could seem pejorative to some.
But I do not believe that is your intent as you do not seem to grasp that the Irish language is cultural to Ireland. Part of Ireland itself.
As you have already demonstrated that you see no difference to playing a certain type of music (as a hobby) to those with any interest in furthering their interest or knowledge of the Irish language. It is not just a hobby for 'hobbyists' 'enthusiasts'. You seem to infer it is no different to someone bird watching or making model planes. It is no way comparable.
I have already tried to explain to you that the Irish language is cultural and part of Ireland. It might have been yourself that even mentioned Hibero-English. Which in itself proves how tied the Irish language is to Ireland. Even through the use of another tongue. I also mentioned the different turns of phrases you get in Irish that you do not get in English.
In the English have no where near the same level of turns of phrase for insults/curses on people. In Irish it is extremely descriptive.
For example:
Go ndeine an diabhal dréimire de cnámh do dhroma ag piocadh úll i ngairdín Ifrinn.
May the devil make a ladder of your backbone picking apples in the garden of hell.
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I did see an alternative to the above where it includes dancing on the flowers of your grave in the garden of hell. As well as the making a ladder of your backbone part!
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Whether people use Irish or not in Ireland it is definitely part of Irish culture. The EU recognise this in the various member states. In various case law to do with traditions of member states (wines, beers etc), and protect native languages of Member States. Giving it status. And symbolism.
I will discuss this in more detail later in broader sense. And more directly how the Irish language is treated in the EU.
Guff about stuff, and stuff about guff.
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I'd consider anyone who wants to rejig the entire education system into irish pretty much an activist, to be honest.
I take your point about culture, but again - just because something is cultural doesn't mean it has to be worshipped and participated in by everyone within the cultual perspective. Opting out is totally acceptable and shouldn't be met with prejoratives either. In some cases, I'd argue that culture isn't even a positive thing, because it assumes following and devotion without question and that's how freedoms start to be eroded.
Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.
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The OP despite being an Irish citizen and an EU citizen, seems to view Irish language signage etc as a threat. And the OP's mantra seems to be 'out of sight, out of mind'
This is contrary to the approach of the EU. The EU supports cultural heritage of the member states.
'Europe’s cultural heritage is a rich and diverse mosaic of cultural and creative expressions, an inheritance from previous generations of Europeans and a legacy for those to come. It includes natural, built and archaeological sites, museums, monuments, artworks, historic cities, literary, musical and audiovisual works, and the knowledge, practices and traditions of European citizens.
While policy in this area is primarily the responsibility of Member States, regional and local authorities, the EU is committed to safeguarding and enhancing Europe's cultural heritage through a number of policies and programmes.'
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Culture of an area does not solely include language, but goods.
This has been viewed in more practical terms about what constitutes 'Champagne' following case law and a resulting regulation in 1987:
https://eu.vlex.com/vid/council-regulation-eec-no-852794763
'Sparkling wine produced in the French region of Champagne enjoys, within the Community, the protected designation ‘quality wine produced in special regions’ (quality wine psr), in accordance with Council Regulation (EEC) No 823/87 of 16 March 1987 laying down special provisions relating to quality wines produced in specified regions.'
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The EU is known for it's Multilingual Approach.
'The European Union has always seen its great diversity of cultures and languages as an asset. Firmly rooted in the European treaties, multilingualism is the reflection of this cultural and linguistic diversity. It also makes the European institutions more accessible and transparent for all citizens of the Union, which is essential for the success of the EU’s democratic system.'
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The Irish Language was given the status of an official language of the EU in 2005:
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Yes I do realise it is symbolism! And I have already stated how I would much prefer more practical measures.
Just on the Irish Language translators in the EU. I found a video which shows the behind the scenes work one of them is doing in Brussels.
Surrounded by reams of books even 'Gramadach Gan Stro' which amused me when I saw the cover.
https://www.schoolbooksdirect.ie/learning-teaching/books/gramadach-gan-stro
The Irish translators, translate all sorts of EU legislation and documents into Irish.
What struck me was that the translator in the clip above 'Tammy Ní Laoire' said she gets to use more Irish in Brussels than 'at home'. It really highlights the oddness of the situation for me.
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I also realise the reality of the situation of how little Irish Ministers use Irish when at EU meetings.
Despite Irish being an official language of the EU
From 2013:
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It is why I believe instead of half doing the job and having documents translated into Irish. Irish given a symbolic official language status along with 23 others. It is about time more practical steps were taken. Rather than airy, fairy type stuff. There is not much point in creating a nice house that has no proper plumbing and electricity.
Added to that is the 'anti-Irish brigade' much like mica in houses they will gradually cause 'the house' to crumble. There needs to be much more practical work done to prevent it.
Guff about stuff, and stuff about guff.
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The problem I see is that the enthusiasts for the language like yourself and Gorm assume a similar active enthusiasm for the language among the rest of the Irish population and want its return as a community language when the clear evidence in front of us strongly suggests quite the opposite is in play. If the 40% that claim on the census to be Irish speakers actually existed we wouldn't be having this conversation, nor would we require top down imposed cultural revivals. One only needs to revive something that's dying. CPR is of no use to those in rude health. People vote with their feet and their tongues and it seems that vote is in.
I bet you won the debating contests in school! But when you read your point carefully there are a few non-sequiturs there.
One only needs to revive something that's dying.
Spot on, Irish is dead as a community language, has been for some time.
If the 40% that claim on the census to be Irish speakers actually existed we wouldn't be having this conversation.
Not exactly. Go look at the census results and pay close attention to the questions asked: "Can you speak Irish?" "How often do you speak it?" It doesn't ask if they can speak it well or fluently. What it does show is that 40% have a connection with the language (with a geographical split, closer to 50% in the west; 30% in North East)
People vote with their feet and their tongues and it seems that vote is in.
Exactly - 40% on average have a connection with an undead language. Now, that is surprising!
It explains why there is a large middle ground that opposes attempts to diminish the status of the language.
I am not against supporting the language, especially in areas where it is still spoken.
As a community language, it is spoken practically nowhere.
Nor am I against support for those enthusiasts in it.
I'd be interested to hear how much support you are talking about here, considering your next sentence?
I am against wasting even more time, money and effort to have some top down imposed artificial cultural revival where it's not needed nor asked for by the people of this nation.
It's not an "imposed artificial cultural revival" - it is the CPR programme that the people are asking for. The question "Do you speak Irish?" in reality is a proxy for "Do you have a (vague and unbinding) wish to speak Irish?" So long as people keep answering yes to this question, Irish will continue to be supported generously and children will be given the opportunity to learn it to an "advanced beginner level". And that is a good thing.
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In some cases, I'd argue that culture isn't even a positive thing, because it assumes following and devotion without question and that's how freedoms start to be eroded.
Not sure what you are eluding to here? While I don't agree with gormdubhgorm's educational reform either I don't think the poster is advocating anything close to oppression or "devotion without question" here!
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