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The creeping prominence of the Irish language
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Your first paragraph is an effective demonstration of the inability of people to see outside their cultural bubble. I see it mostly from people with an Anglo-centric perspective, though in fairness it's a common human failing.
As to your second, you're not a mind reader. I don't assume enthusiasm. I assume either indifference or the kind of hostility one normally sees from noisy Anglos. If you were less inclined to lazy and narrow-minded thinking, you'd have noticed that @gormdubhgorm and I don't quite see things the same way as regards Irish. The fact that you can't really tell us apart says a lot about you.
For similar reasons to the above, I don't believe your third paragraph.
If you don't don't use pejorative language, I won't say that you do.
I went looking for the rules, and couldn't find them. If you're a moderator making an observation, my recollection is that you're supposed to indicate that. If you're not, are we supposed to engage in backseat moderation?
And I can't take you seriously when you mention being obtuse to make a point in light of your previous immature and obtuse remark about "and not from an Irish language source if possible".
On a message forum, you are what you post, which makes you a bad-faith actor spending far too much time and energy trying to diss a language. Just another noisy Anglo, and the country has a surfeit of those.
(Not a word of Irish. Or Dutch. Or Italian. Or Swedish. Or German. Or Hebrew. Or even Yiddish. Happy now?)
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I am no activist I would not go out and about with placards etc. I see the 'Acht na Gaeilge'/Irish language Act in NI for what it is, symbolism. Pointless in the greater scheme of things IMO.
More practical measures cannot be done in NI for obvious reasons. But, in the ROI they can. My suggestion while although radical on the face of it - it Is much less of an imposition. than the ones which caused the decline of the Irish language in the first place. I did not propose banning English and so on. Or taking up arms and so on.
Just simply using Irish as the medium for education. Maybe not the secondary schools (as I appreciate the difficulties) but it should be easy enough to do in preschools and primary school level.
No one is harmed in any way shape or form and the children pick up Irish fast. Not through grammar and rote learning. But just by kids, being kids. Through Irish at school.
I know well it would have no notion of happening. Because the reality is as Wibbs implied the real will is not there. The majority of people in Ireland would like if they had more Irish, 'it would be a pity if it went' etc.
But due to the 'new normal' created under English rule. The Irish people have gotten lazy, at the end of the day. In particular as English is the lingua franca of the world. It makes most Irish people not too bothered with languages in general, never mind Irish.
I read the problem summed up neatly as follows:
'Deep-rooted, or even unconscious, fears and biases about their language, often stemming from colonial attitudes, all of which can be serious impediments to revitalization. In general, it is not uncommon to find a general sense that revitalization would be a good idea, without a full understanding of or commitment to the sustained level of effort required to actually achieve it. '
Guff about stuff, and stuff about guff.
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Translation and printing for Irish language versions of various state documents
So in your opinion, documents should only be produced in English?
How do you know they don't get used in Irish? And if they don't, could it be because they don't get used in English either? Are you against documents being produced in English when they just get left sitting on a shelf?
The total roadsign replacement in Gaeltachts.
Did you also object to the extremely expensive replacement of mileage signs by kilometre signs back in 2002/03?
The costs of state agencies updating all materials to reflect renaming
Again, this was a phased change, with bodies allowed to use up old material.
The plebiscites to try fix renaming in areas where it was contentious
How many plebiscites were there and how much did they cost?
Remaking street signs to fix the language order.
You do realise that roadsign are naturally replaced after a period? The Official Languages Act actually stipulated a twenty year period for replacement. Recognising that signs would be changed over time. The only time there was wastage was when someone fukkd up and made illegal signs. Do you think they should have been made pay for their mistake?
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Can you point out any study that shows it to be incontestably detrimental?
or even slightly detrimental?
Or maybe you decided to keep on smoking as a one person protest against the Irish on the box!!!
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If we could harness half of these long winded self important posts we could power the national grid for the entire winter.
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By the way, @gormdubhgorm, while I understand your point about the symbolism involved in the Acht na Gaeilge campaign, I do admire the liveliness of the Irish language community and scene in the North. It is definitely more vibrant and (I think) younger than in the South (although the likes of Ola Majekodunmi and Ciara Ní É would beg to differ). The politics is part of the attraction, but it's not all about that. No disrespect to Sinn Féin, but I used to think all Irish speakers in the North were members of that party. But they aren't. Also, I think a big thing that influences the visibility of Irish in the North is the Cultúrlann. By being an open and public facility, with a variety of services, it has created a space where Irish speakers know they can go 7 days of the week and speak, listen to and engage with others in Irish. Cairde Turas does something similar though on a smaller scale in East Belfast. But there isn't a space like that anywhere in the South, and especially not in Dublin.
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It is probably a bias on my part. If I had my way I would keep the Irish Language debate separate from tense type politics like NI. I just don't like it how both sides are playing it, it all seems very insincere to me.
I remember talking to a fella from the Donegal Gaeltacht. I asked him why he did not wear a fainne. He was very sheepish about it. And I asked is it because of connotations some people would draw IRA/Republican etc. And he admitted it was.
Anyway, I am starting to feel I have been trolled a bit in this thread by the OP. But the OP has even got fed up of me (apparently) which is a little bit amusing in itself.
At this stage I would only be repeating myself anyway. However, it was kind of constructive in some sense, in that I could lay out my thoughts on the whole thing. And guage the opinions of others.
But ironically, by posting on the OP's thread about signage. Other posters such as @Wibbs and @Princess Consuela Bananahammock have placed various new names on me which I was previously unaware of 'Irish Activist', 'Irish Enthusiast' and 'Irish Hobbyist'.
I am just Irish, as far as I know!
Guff about stuff, and stuff about guff.
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I think you'll generally find that Mum and Dad didn't like Irish either. IMO this is the usual situation, and they pass on their hatred to their kids.
I once worked with a typical example, she never missed an opportunity to bad-mouth Irish; so I was completely unsurprised then one day when I heard her in the canteen telling all and sundry that "Of course my daughter can't stand Irish".
She'd come out with choice comments too on other matters - one that sticks in my mind is that "My husband has a high-powered job". Another day she was talking about her (then) most recent holiday in Florida "And it wasn't expensive at all, it didn't cost much more than €10,000".
Somehow I have always felt that her range of attitudes fitted together like the pieces of a jigsaw.
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When the State and it's various arms refuse to deal with me in the Official language of my choice, but provide all its services to another person in the official language of their choice, then I am being singled out for different, poorer treatment than that other person. This is the very definition of discrimination. Regardless of your opinion.
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I suspect a lot of the language stuff in the North is as insincere as you suspect. I was a fluent speaker when I left school, but I backed away because I was concerned, wrongly as it happens, about the "creeping prominence" of Republican politics amongst Irish speakers at the time (a very long time ago). I didn't speak Irish for over 30 years, only getting back to it a few years ago. Is mór dá aiféala atá orm faoi sin; I regret that a lot. But there's no use crying over spilt milk.
That said, I've met many Irish speakers from the North, from all walks of life and all corners of politics, and when you do get into conversation it's generally personal and rarely performative.
I wouldn't be concerned about the labels. It's more of the same old same old.
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I read Peig many years after leaving school, and it is clear that you have never read it because there is nothing like that in it at all. It is simply a charming little story of a girl growing up in the late 19th century.
Not modern enough for D4, not even in the mid-20th century. But Peig was a seanchaí - a storyteller - and the story she told was tailored to a young adolescent or pre-adolescent age group. Give it a read, if you do you'll be surprised at the level of distaste so many have for the book. Generally I'd say they never read it - but they surely heard that it was about a bogtrotter so it must be dreadful!
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Listen, several long-standing posters have explained to you ad infinitum why forcing every single child to be educated through Irish would be unwanted by many and counterproductive, how it's ironic given you cite the measures that were used to kill off Irish but want to force school children to be educated exclusively in a language that isn't their mother tongue; you seem incapable of taking on board their views, you have an almost paternalistic, I-know-better attitude to them. It reminds of a debate I had with you on the GAA forum re name-calling where you totally ignored the forum charter, the mods and most of all your targets because you were right and contrary opinions were inherently wrong. How about you try to put yourself in the shoes of those that don't want to be educated exclusively through Irish or don't want their kids to educated in such a fashion, i.e. show some empathy.
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1) I honestly have no idea what you are talking about regarding the GAA. Given you have 35 posts in total on this site (at the time of writing) it must have been a brief discussion. Also cross posting on threads is not permitted on boards.ie in any case. It is not relevant to the current debate in any case
2) Again in my suggestion no one is 'forced' they would have the option of a private education through English in my idea or homeschooling if they prefer those are options. Or some halfway house where a majority could find agreement. But it is the only logical way I can think of to quickly have some sort of language reversal chance in 20 years. That would be real 'prominence'.
Get people speaking the language at a very young age and they will have it. If the majority of Irish people are as fond of Irish as they claim - whether they speak the language or not - and do not wish it to die out as a community language. There should be no issue.
I did not mention banning the English language or violence or anything of the like. Simply using Irish in the medium of education.
What I am suggesting is not to 'kill off' English. It is to improve the knowledge and fluency of Irish in the young. And in future the two will work in tandem.
In the past when the British ruled the ROI they did not want Irish to exist at all. I am not calling for English to be 'killed off' in reverse that is your conflation.
My idea is merely a suggestion, where Irish can be given a stronger practical foothold. And I already have stated why I came to such a conclusion. A number of times already.
I cannot explain it much more detail. It is in order to see how much the 'middle ground' are willing to move forwards with the Irish language. Or if it is lip service?
3) You say show some empathy, have you read the tone of this thread and the very first OP?
I believe I have been very understanding of the alternative viewpoint of the OP. And I kept asking why what was the 'root cause' of this viewpoint. And the WHY the OP felt threatened by Irish language signage etc.
I did not receive an answer as to why, at all.
Which says a lot in itself. The OP has 'underlying issues' with the Irish language in general IMO. I could be wrong but it seems that way. Unfortunately, we will likely now never know the answer.
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Would you describe phraseology such as 'creeping prominence' in the thread title as
a) Knowledgeable of the Irish language situation in law - both domestically and at European level?
b) A reflection of reality?
c) Empathetic?
d) An attack on the Irish language?
e) Irrational fear?
f) Other?
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I have already posted Lig Dom which demonstrated the level of 'empathy' Irish speakers receive in their own country. That is the reality of it and to claim that the Irish language has a prominence is completely, disingenuous IMO. As nothing could be further from the truth in a broader practical sense in daily life.
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Anyway rather than attacking the poster and not the post. Have you any comments on what the OP is suggesting? Or have you any suggestions on the Irish language debate in general?
Post edited by gormdubhgorm onGuff about stuff, and stuff about guff.
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I never said he was - I was refering to the concept of culture generally and his assumption that it's automatically positive.
Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.
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Fair point, radical is a better discription than activist.
I - and several other posters - have already gone over the bit where it most certainly is not easy (changing entire syllabus, and finding enough teachers to teach all subjects at the same quality in Irish as is done in English) and most certainly not painless (not every kid picks up languages as fast as you think and it's going to cause a lot of completely unnecessary stress and upheaval at a vitally important point of their lives) but you seem to repeatedly ignore that.
I've yet to meet a four/five year old with and fear or bias stemming from colonial attitude.
You're going to have to accept that, for a lot of people, that's complete bullshit and the bias stems from complete indifference towards the langauge and that alone. Also, radicals like yourself wanting to force other people's kids to adjust to a new language at the start of their education just so they can allegedly a revive a language.
Ultimately, you don't give a **** about the kids. This is all about the language for you and soundbites like the above are just confirmation bias.
Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.
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And I would agree - if you want to be delt with in Irish, you should have that right. If the person you are dealing with does not speak Irish, then and Irish-speaking alternative should be found.
The only exception to that would be the police or hospital in the case of an investigation or emergency where time is an important factor.
Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.
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The tide went out for Gaelic around 1890 by independence 1921 it was in the Intensive Care Unit. In Kerry Primary and Secondary school instruction in all subjects was in Gaelic until around 1990. I never spoke a word of Gaelic after I left school in Ireland. At various times I worked in Greek, French and of course English. My German wife speaks five languages and operates professionally in three, English, French and German we are in Canada which has two official languages French and English. The French here are heavily intermarried with the Irish, the Quebec Premier has stated that 40 % of Quebecers have Irish blood. The fact is Gaelic is dead but there is a refusal to bury the body. Ireland has come through tough times and survived with emigration playing a large part. We are free to work any where in the EU some thought should be given to teaching French, German or Italian in primary and secondary schools. The USA which was the usual safety net is becoming a spent force unfortunately. My children and grandchildren have and are receiving instruction in English, French and German. If someone off a farm in Kerry can master foreign languages then anyone can do it.
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Cuir an breac san eangach sula gcuire tú sa phota é.
Never a truer word was spoken
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What an odd post. You seem to suggest that Kerry farmers are particularly dim? You don't seem to be aware of the convention of referring to the Irish language as Irish when speaking English. And you are not aware that secondary school children do learn French and (sometimes) other languages, and primary and secondary children do in fact learn Irish on a regular basis.
Going back to the rest of the discussion, anecdotally, on the subject of all education being through Irish, my husband was a non-native Irish speaker who did all his education, including degrees, through Irish. (his master's thesis, on the topic of teaching Breton as a foreign language in France, is still around, typed in the old Irish script). One of the minor side effects of this was that he was at something of a loss when dealing with science or maths as he often did not know the word to describe, say, geometrical angles or scientific processes. He knew the stuff but was often stuck for the English language word, which was his regular and preferred means of communication. I am not claiming this is anyway conclusive of anything, but maybe a balance of usefulness might be found.
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Good god man, spit it out. 😂 Just call me a west brit and be done with it. It would save keystrokes and establish your position more clearly.
Your first paragraph is an effective demonstration of the inability of people to see outside their cultural bubble.
Ironies all over the place. My first paragraph has as much if not more truth to it than the simplistic it was all the brit's fault. Such things are never so simplistic. For the craic dispute my points.
And I can't take you seriously when you mention being obtuse to make a point in light of your previous immature and obtuse remark about "and not from an Irish language source if possible".
That's standard operating procedure when looking at cultural and historical claims. You look at external sources to corroborate internal ones, because biases abound.
On a message forum, you are what you post, which makes you a bad-faith actor spending far too much time and energy trying to diss a language. Just another noisy Anglo, and the country has a surfeit of those.
Man talk about going on the defensive. As I said just call me a west brit and be done with it. You know you want to. 😁
As far as Gaelic and Gaeilgeoirí go, I'm too often reminded of Gandhi's take on Christ and Christians.
The bogtrotter/D4 stuff is more illuminating as far as your take on things goes, but I digress. Peig Sayers was indeed a seanchai and a huge repository of folk tales. This is good and good that her legacy was preserved. However the book Peig itself is overall about as charming as a lump of grit in your eye. With little enough respite early on it goes on to detail the various calamities that befall her and those around her. Few of those who had to suffer through it at school taking bets on who would fall off a cliff in the next chapter would describe it as "charming". It probably put more kids off the language than any other thing in the curriculum. How did they miss the charm I wonder?
It associated the language with the old, out of date, poor and and clay piped rural, and a morose subsection of them with it, all windswept and uninteresting. It was part of the misery porn trend in some Irish literature and it and its ilk were brilliantly parodied in Irish in O'Nolan's An Beal Bocht(the poor mouth). He seems to have missed this charm too. He also beautifully extracts the urine out of the misery porn seeking urban obsessive gaeilgeoirí who show up to instruct the locals on how to be truly Irish, but the realities of the misery prove a tad too real for them and they bugger off. Old Myles na gCopaleen is still somewhat relevant today. Far more than Peig ever was. That's still worth a read in any language.
Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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Not true again, That is just your bias. I do give a sh!te about the kids AND the language. It has a dual benefit.
There have been various studies showing the benefits of having multilingual children.
You have a leaning against the Irish language in general which is fair enough. Ok, you may view my idea as radical. Because it is a 'foreign' mindset to you. If anything I would counter argue that the OP's mindset is 'radical'. If you look at the OP's comments regarding Irish language warnings on cigarettes packets 'causing deaths'. You can really see an irrational 'radical' mindset. Unless someone can correct me if I took up the OP incorrectly. It certainly seems odd and the mindset seemed odd - to me anyway.
I would argue using Irish as the medium of education in primary and preschool would be easy. As there is an overabundance of primary school teachers - scratching a living and subbing here and there. Secondary level it would be more difficult.
But it is NOT the complete changing of the syllabus in Irish education it is merely using the Irish language as a medium to teach the very same general syllabus that is already there. It is only a question of translating English into Irish.
Or using simply Irish books, how do you think Gaelscoil's manage currently do you think they have their own completely different syllabus??? They would be taught the same subjects as their English medium counterparts
They have the very same general direction of syllabus as laid down by the department of education. They have to sit the same state structured exams at the end of the day. The issue you have about the syllabus is mostly a bit of a misnomer IMO.
I don't understand your point about causing 'unnecessary stress' and 4/5 year olds with colonial bias?? That point is a bit baffling.
Toddlers and kids of that age quite happily absorb a new language, if immersed in it. I have heard of toddlers at naíonradescribing Irish as 'new English'. And others who just naturally know there are two words for everything Irish/English.
I did see a discussion online yesterday with Bláthnaid Ní Chofaigh and B'OC.
It was like a concentrated discussion of this thread.
O'Connor brought up the point about the perception of exclusivity in Gaelscoileanna, TG4, translations and so on. B Ni C corrected him on those points. Ultimately said The Irish language is for everyone etc it is just the fluency that differs.
And again she pointed out the practical difficulties she has to suffer, when she tries to use the Irish language in day to day life etc.There was tension as well as a member of the audience, seemed disgruntled with BO'C. I got the impression it was a bubbling frustration.
The bit that really made me laugh was when Blaithnaid said if she was Minister for Education she would make all Primary Schools Gaelscoils @11:00. And Blaithnaid said to Brendan 'oh your eyes'.
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On Gaelscoils
There seems to be a demand for the supply for more Gaelscoil's not less
Also outside fee paying schools Gaelscoil's are said to be the top performers getting academic results.
In 2016 - 'Of the top 10 non fee-paying schools whose students progress to third-level education, four are Gaelcholáistí or Irish language schools'
Yet in 2016 - 'Of the 735 secondary schools registered with the Department of Education in 2016, just 48 are fully Irish-medium.'
Guff about stuff, and stuff about guff.
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Why do you keep saying you think it would be easy but repeatedly refuse to deal with the reasons as to why it world be anything but easy?
Why - when the teaching of Irish in Irish is bad enough (and it is) - do you think other subjects should follow?
Why do you list the benefits of multilingualism (which only works with good teaching both inside and outside the classroom by the way) while advocating a monolingual education system?
Why, if you care about kids are you denying them an education in their most comfortable language?
And how are you going to help kids who don't take to languages very well, as a lot won't?
Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.
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This sounds very pejorative one you say 'someone off a farm in Kerry'. A tongue in cheek comment, I understand. But an untrue generalisation. As far as I am aware the likes of Conor McGregor and Ola Majekodunmi. Are neither experts in the agricultural matters or from Kerry. Or even from rural Ireland
Secondly you pretend that the Irish language is dead. It is the usual throwaway comment that is used by some in these type of debates.
It clearly is not considering that 1.7m people in Ireland have some form of Irish.There wide diveranges of level of fluency in between, obviously. The Irish language is not dead but seriously in trouble in the next 20/30 years. It could be on life support by then.
If the majority of the Irish people care about the Irish Language and do not want it lost. As many seem to agree on. Irish medium based education is the way forwards IMO.
PS - Gaelic v Gaeilge/Irish
Guff about stuff, and stuff about guff.
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Your'e gas you don't seem to understand how easily kids pick up a language when they are very young it is second nature. They do not face the same difficulties an adult faces when learning a second language. You don't have to be a linguistic to realise that. Surely?
My little nephew (aged five) picked up all the words of 'Deutschland' by Rammstein after listening to it repeatedly in a very quick time, because he liked it. And the little fella does not even know what 'German' is!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4ZrzuZLuC4
A different language is of no difficulty or stress to a young child. As it would be to you, as an adult
Plus there was a study in 2011 which showed the benefits of learning Mathematics through the Irish medium.
All this 'stress' seems to be your own viewpoint and not that of the child at all!
You ask why education should be taught through the Irish medium. I have already said why increases the depth of Irish in speakers, encourages bilingualism, means the Irish language has more chance of surviving and growing.
Guff about stuff, and stuff about guff.
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I'm not arguing that kids won't pick up - I'm arguing that not all of them will. And that you're dismissing serious issues just to get what you want. Furthermore, those that do do so in specific environments you just assume will materialise out of thin air.
Page 8 of the document YOU linked to - "however, learning issues may arise both for students and teachers at the transition from Gaeilge-medium education to English-medium education" - one can only imagine what it's like going in the opposite direction!
Page 11 of it - "Gaeilgeoirí in the transition from Gaeilge-medium primary level education to English-medium second level mathematics education experience a disadvantage of 8.7 percent in performance when assessed through English." - 8.7% drop when they swtiched language??!
If kids naturally picked up second languages easily at the rate you assume we'd have a bilingual society already!
And finally - you ignroed four of the five questions I put to you in the post you replied to. Please address these or concede the points.
Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.
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For me it's more about the assumption as a given that the majority of the Irish people want the language brought back as some sort of a "cultural rebirth". Even if that 40% that tick the boxes in the census were all fluent Irish speakers for The Cause, and they aren't, that would still give a majority who don't and aren't. That's about the same majority that passed SSM and Repeal the 8th.
Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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I was thinking of some posters on here last night, as I waited for a bus out of town. The live signs were in irish.
Didn't seem to be an issue for any of the different nationalities waiting for the bus. It's amazing to think that it's an issue for Irish people🙄
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For the vast majority of Irish people, it isn't. They don't notice it. It's just background stuff.
Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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Aren't those live information signs in both English and Irish?
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Usually, must have been stuck last night😁
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I like Irish as - It has quite a broad spectrum through which one can interpret life. I like the sounds and how they relate to the natural world.
I also appreciate Irish in a living context that echos back well over a 1000 years. I find it fascinating that mythological knowledge relating to our ancestry was passed unaltered through generations through a sophisticated spoken tradition.
The viewpoint of Irish as useless is limiting. It has vast potential. The historical notion as language of the poor relates to the worst eras of our history -of emigration, occupation and the famine. It was thriving and spoken by Gaelic Kings and Queens.
Ireland was a cultural mecca of music, poetry, song, story and spirituality.
The culture was highly sophisticated. Our Celtic ancestors were certainly more attuned to their etheric nature and the world behind the veil which no doubt could be more tangibly felt back then. A magical land & a magical people. But the cycles of time change our consciousness-and here we are (in an iron age of consciousness) - a rational world arguing in a rational way ...but that will change again as we are enter into the Aquarian age.
Irish Language and landscape blend so very well together. It mirrors the natural world better than English - in an untranslatable way. Irish is a means through which reality can be sensed with a deeper sense of meaning.
When Irish is judged- solely on its economic/utilitarian benefit - one misses out on the bigger picture.
Irish is a uniquely brilliant lens through which to view the world. The sounds are rich and when sung well can stir the soul.
It is the oldest spoken language in Europe - that's pretty amazing -if we only realised we are so so lucky! Especially when you consider how our culture was almost wiped out. What remains of our culture is but a fragment of a greater time – yet it is still impressive. There is currently more life in the language than you'll find in the impressive artifacts of ancient Egypt.
I find it sad at the beating it has taken -even in this forum! It is sad that Anglisised Surnames were imposed in the past, that Irish was pushed as a backward savage tongue by an external force -and that notion is still believed. It is sad that our sense of place (with deep roots in lore) was altered by the anglicising of names which related to the land.
-Vinegar Hill -bears no resemblance to Cnoc Fiodh na gCaor Hill of the wood of the berries (other than phoneme). That someone would find offense to Irish place-names on signs says much about their mindset … and yet,were a 180 degree change of mindset to happen then that same person would be far the richer in wisdom and self.
Some posters have pointed the finger at Irish speakers for leading to the demise of the language for example -an unwillingness to speak it following Emigration or even here at home. This is only partially true and many have played their part in keeping the language alive - it is thanks to those we still have Irish. Same goes for musicians! Good bad or indifferent we all carry some responsibility.
I spent much time far away from anglo culture– enough time to feel infused into different cultures (I find it it takes at least three weeks to months) – a Brazilian Amazonian tribe, Buddhist monks in the high Himalayas, Small islands off the coast of India, I threw myself into a Spanish speaking culture without having a word of it and picked it up. I found there was a common thread amongst old cultures (myth, spirituality, story)- and began to gain a deep appreciation of our own which had lain dormant within me – I was blind to it. Irish language, I realised was a gateway to deeper insight.
If culture is not important to people – if it is seen as a waste of money then … it is easier to remain immersed in the slow current of a creeping homogenized world of a perceived majority – cultural decay can set in like an untended garden.
We can imagine where that leads to!
Signage, announcements – giving recognition to Irish -this is important – the stage is set – and up to the people grassroots up to act also.
It is the small increments that lead to great advances. Change can come slowly. Little things make a big differences. Playing Irish music in a shop. Just saying slán -that’s easy, it’s the embarrassment that’s not -but why be embarassed -that's a meditation in itself! Read a myth, a saga, a poem but speaking as you read (even in English). Sending a child to the Gaeltacht – it may be years down the line that the impact of the seed being sown makes a difference. As the saying goes “Ní neart go cur le chéile’ Little strength without unity. Waking up the sense of culture.
We can choose to bring a little culture into our day and not place reliance solely on political power or whats streamed on tv/radio.
It is heartening that there are spaces of cultural unity in society – all Irish preschools, secondary students singing together in a school assembly, trad sessions, ciorcail comhrá -small examples of Irish being spoken in a community. More can be done to revive Irish in the wider community, like cities - the only barrier being -perception, imagination, collective effort and will.
I'm not an enthusiast nor a zealot. I'm a glass half-full kind of person. I can get by in English, Irish, French, German, Spanish.
As Wibbs so well puts it “For the vast majority of Irish people… They don't notice it. It's just background stuff.”
Irish people who don’t notice the background stuff are asleep - not only to their culture but to the very essence that has shaped their identity -the perceived and the hidden.
Yet for those, there remains the potential delight of waking up.
Post edited by Fishdoodle on3 -
Presumably I was the 'some posters' having trouble with the buses. Most of 'the various nationalities' actually standing at a bus stop waiting already knew what number they wanted and knew the area well enough to know which number went where. If they didn't they could ask one of the other people standing at the stop. In my case there were no people at any of the stops and I didn't even know which side of the road I needed to be. When I did find a small queue of people most of them looked at me blankly or ignored me. The one that responded didn't know what number bus I needed to get into the centre but did know I needed to be on the other side of the road. I went across the road and just got on the first bus that came, and the nice Dublin bus driver rolled his eyes at me and was barely civil, but did say that this bus would take me to the centre.
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It is the oldest spoken language in Europe
While I take many of your points on board FD, it's not. Maybe you're thinking of Old Irish being the oldest non Classical language that was written down? Basque is considerably older. It's not even in the indo European family of languages. A living fossil isolate(and well bloody weird to try and get a grasp on). Welsh would be of a similar vintage to Irish. As would Breton and Manx. Of the Classical languages modern Greek is in a direct line from Ancient Greek and that's been spoken and written down for way longer than Irish. Modern Spanish and Italian are also in a line from Latin and that's been around for a while too. If an Irish speaker from today went back in an atomic powered DeLorean to 2000 years ago they'd have a fair bit of difficulty understanding the Irish of the time, but would pick it up after a while because of the similarities, just as a Spaniard would get the gist of Latin if they went back to Rome back in the day(I remember reading somewhere that Spanish speakers would pick it up more easily than Italian speakers oddly enough). Continuity in language isn't so continuous, which is a very good thing, or it would be pickled and almost certainly die out. Basque/Euskara has itself changed over time. Even for us majority fluent English speakers here(and the Irish are extra fluent as Bearla in many ways 😜) try listening to Chaucer in Middle English. Without the subtitles.
Close your eyes and think WTF? 😁 and that's "only" 800 years back. Original Saxon would be even more foreign. If you went back in time yourself and met someone like I dunno, Columbanus and with your ability to get by in the languages you have, you might actually stand a better chance of chatting with the lad in your Spanish, rather than your Irish, or a mixture of both, and a bit of Francais might not go amiss. Latinirish. Now that's a convo I'd love to be a part of. 🙂
As for the essence of our identity, that's an organic evolution too, a bastard child with many mothers, with a few errant fathers in the mix. Including in our case the oft abusive English one. And like our parents we can't really pick and choose them after the fact.
Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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Maybe you're thinking of Old Irish being the oldest non Classical language that was written down?
Actually, I was thinking -the oldest Western European language spoken, though happy to stand corrected there with the Basque! 🙂 Very little seems to be known of their Mythology -placenames play a small part in a pool of small puzzle pieces. Welsh & Irish seem quite close - some of the legends seem to be similar such as the Children of Lir. That said it’s extraordinary how far back a language can go - certainly our isolation as an island outpost helped. (Which makes it even more extraordinary that Basque survived longer!) Nonetheless, we are extremely lucky to have such cultural wealth. I remember walking into an antique store in Boston -plenty of buckets and milk jugs! Many Americans have a longing to explore their roots- we can laugh at the stereotype but the greatest treasure is often overlooked when it’s under our very noses!
As for the essence of our identity, that's an organic evolution too….
👍✨Will comment on this again-using a tablet to write on boards is an absolute pain 😅
Watched/listened to the vid on Chaucer …eyes closed helped. Could make out a decent amount 65% ish -actually looking at the words after, made it more difficult. Discerning meaning by hearing alone is a good exercise.
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@Wibbs I haven't quoted your post from Saturday morning as I'm trying to avoid rabbit holes. But there's a particular inaccuracy that manages to insult both of us simultaneously, and it's bugging me. You evidently have a bugbear about being called a "West Brit". I haven't called you that, nor would I, and nor do I think it, so that's an insult you might need to reflect on yourself. I have a bit of a British background, and I'm quietly proud of it, so I'm not about to use a reference to Britishness or "West Brit" as a cheap insult*. What I did say is that you're an example of a Noisy Anglo - an English speaker whose perspective is narrowed by that and who talks over others because they don't share that Anglophone view. Noisy Anglos are plentiful here, as they are in the UK, the US and other Anglophone countries, so it isn't a "West Brit" thing. I guess you probably won't appreciate that, so I'll apologise straight away for any offence caused, but unfortunately that's just how it is. TBH I didn't start out with that view, but my experience of the exchange has changed my mind, so it's time I opted out.
Le dea-mhéin (kind regards).
*That refers to being British. Insulting Tories is a whole other ball game, just saying.
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You're remarkably quick to jump to assuming some percieved insult and perception of perjoratives. I have no bugbear about it, so lord knows where you got evidently from. 🤷♂️ It's just that as night follows day those who go against the grain of Irishness, and usually a narrow form of it, the "west brit" thing is sure to rear its head. "Noisy Anglo" is just a synonym really. There seems to be a fair bit of projection and assumption going on. Something I have found common in those with a drum to bang. That and a seeming inability to reflect on their own narrow perspectives.
Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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I think a lot of people would like to see it - the question is at what cost? Disruption to their childrens' education? Increased taxes? It's also based on the assumption that other people are going to be doing the hard work, not them.
That's when you're going to find a much more accurate figure.
Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.
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The "oldest language" thing is common to a few out there. Much of it born out of the late 19th century cultural revivals across Europe. Almost all of which were cultural revivals of non classical world cultures. Somewhat of a way to say it wasn't just the Greeks and Italians you know. There was also the pushback against increased industrialisation and a draw to earlier simpler times(tm) of legend. You had the Celtic of course and its many forms, Scots, Irish, Welsh, the Germanic, even the Zionist. That and a growing sense of independence for such cultures, not least here in Ireland. We got independence, the Scots got kilts and caber tossing. 😁 The English didn't get much out of it funny enough. Well, not much Anglo Saxon stuff had been found in the 19th century. Some have argued that Tolkien's Rings epic were a way to give suburban English people their own sagas.
The problem with the revivalist stuff is a lot of legend was mixed in with fact. Vikings gained horned helmets, Scots got clan tartans. Irish being the oldest spoken language thing being another one of them. Even a cursory glance would show that to be extremely dubious. Now because Irish was the oldest non classical European language written down to any degree it meant we had a major advantage there as the Irish clergy wrote down so many of our legends that would have otherwise been lost. That they wrote them down at all was fortunate as the Roman church wouldn't have been too keen on that, but our insularity helped in a big way. That they wrote them down in Irish was unusual too, as Latin would have been the go to, especially as Irish had been an oral culture beforehand. We have great cultural wealth there and in the early medieval in general and in the much earlier prehistoric, much of it later claimed by the British as how could the thick paddies do this on their own.🤦♂️ Our insularity didn't help in other ways as the depth of our cultural heritage wouldn't be close to say Italy's. Basque was similarly insular, though in her case because of an "island" formed by mountain ranges to the south and the sea to the north and a fiercely indpendent bent in the Basques themselves.
The oldest spoken languages in Europe? Basque is well ahead, Finnish would be another old one. Lithuanian keeps the most of the earlier structures of indo European languages. Irish and Welsh would be pretty old too and Irish would be the oldest non classical written language. The winner? Greek is the oldest spoken and written indo European language. In constant use, evolving over time as languages do and has been around for nearly five thousand years. Compared to Greek, Irish is a ten year old and English is still in the crib.
Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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Watched/listened to the vid on Chaucer …eyes closed helped. Could make out a decent amount 65% ish -actually looking at the words after, made it more difficult. Discerning meaning by hearing alone is a good exercise.
Chaucer's great craic, actually. So's Shakespeare.
I find Gàidhlig a bit easier to read than to listen to. Its orthography is quite similar to Gaeilge (in fact, AFAIK it was taken from "pre-standardised" Irish), but there are some unexpected pronunciations. Gaelg (Manx) on the other hand, is like looking into a hedge. It sounds like a cross between Gàidhlig and Gaeilge, as you'd expect, but the orthography is utterly different, and seems to be based on English with a hint of Welsh. It means that when reading Manx you have to switch on English and Irish language codes at once - you have to use your Experience of English to "say what you see" in Gaelg. Have a look at this page (Wikipedia, so apply the usual health warnings). It shows Gaelg, Gàidhlig and Gaeilge versions of the Lord's Prayer (no English on display but you can look it up if you don't know it). You can see the connections for yourself, as well as the, er, "particular" use of the Roman alphabet in Gaelg.
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The bogtrotter/D4 stuff is more illuminating as far as your take on things goes, but I digress. Peig Sayers was indeed a seanchai and a huge repository of folk tales. This is good and good that her legacy was preserved. However the book Peig itself is overall about as charming as a lump of grit in your eye. With little enough respite early on it goes on to detail the various calamities that befall her and those around her. Few of those who had to suffer through it at school taking bets on who would fall off a cliff in the next chapter would describe it as "charming". It probably put more kids off the language than any other thing in the curriculum. How did they miss the charm I wonder?As I have already said, it is clear that you haven't read the book: it's not about the calamities that befell Peig. It's a simple story full of anecdotes about a young girl growing up. Only towards the end does she mention her adult life and some difficulties that happened after her marriage - but they are certainly not the general thrust of the book.
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Just on your last point - there are whole societies where almost everyone is functionally bilingual. The only people who aren't are the few who have difficulty with their own mother tongue.
I'd point you towards Belgium, for instance - in Flanders most if not all normal adults speak Dutch, English and French; and a lot speak German too. Move south to the Walloons, and you'll find most people are monolingual in French. This should point towards where the difficulty lies: not in innate ability, but in the culture an individual lives in. The French-speakers live in a culture that prizes monolingualism, just like most English-speaking countries - while the Flemish live in a culture that values and promotes an ability to speak several languages.
A large proportion of Irish people fully subscribe to the Anglosphere's prized monolingualism, and feign astonishment at people who can speak another (non-Irish) language well. Another significant section of our society would rather go the Flemish route, and speak both Irish and English along with one or more other languages.
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My mother who was born in Kerry and spoke Gaelic and English on a daily basis recognised that her generation was the last that would be speaking in Gaelic on a daily basis. The best hope for Gaelic now is that it be made voluntary and readily available to anyone interested. Trying to foist it on Primary and Secondary School students who will be competing on an EU wide basis does not make sense. I have relatives that teach Gaelic in National Schools who recognise their children need French, German or Italian more than they need Gaelic. The Government has valiantly tried to resurrect Gaelic since 1921, time to face up to the harsh fact that it has failed. To continue flogging a dread horse in hope that it will get up and gallop away is akin to insanity. I have nothing against Gaelic, I am concerned that Irish people continue to compete successfully in the world beyond the parish pump.
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Not all languages have changed as rapidly as English: medieval Icelandic can apparently be read by modern Icelanders.
Also, an educated native Irish speaker - by which I mean someone who has studied Irish literature to the same extent as a Leaving Cert honours English student would have studied English literature - would make a very good fist of understanding the Irish written around the time of Chaucer. Indeed, I have a book here that was translated into Irish - apparently from Latin - around that period, and I can understand most of it fairly easily - in fact the biggest difficulty is pre-caighdeán spelling. In fact, if the speling was standardised, anyone who reads Irish on a regular basis could understand it. Writing in 1914, the editor comments on the text:
... no evidence has been found of linguistic peculiarities not in the spoken language of, say, the last five hundred years .... The forms are practically those in use amongst good speakers of Irish at the present day.0 -
In reality, Manx is a dialect of Scots Gaelic, written according to English/Welsh orthography.
For instance, they have something like (Not certain of the spelling in either case!):
Ha mee graa = Tha mi ag ràdh
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True, but the difference there is praticality.
The extra languages are learnt as a necessity. When English is your first language and you live in a majority native-English speaking country, that goes out of the window.
Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.
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I really wonder if every school in Kerry was Irish medium ever, never mind in 1990.
Fair play to you in learning Greek, French and English though, not to mention your wife's five languages. Surprisingly, most Irish people I know who are multilingual are neutral to favorable regarding Irish, evidently there are exceptions like yourself.
BTW - if you are actually from Kerry - why do you use the Donegal dialect word to refer to Irish?
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Also speaking the worlds most common second language as your first really disincentivises learning another.
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With the exception of pidgins and creoles such as English, Sranan, Tok Pisin etc, in my book all languages are equally ancient - they are merely the most recent version of whatever went before. French is merely the version of Latin spoken in Gaul, Spanish the version of Latin spoken in much of Spain and Latin America etc. These Romance dialects are not mutually intelligible with Latin perhaps, or even with one another - although knowing one makes it very very easy to learn any of the others.
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Obviously I will let the poster answer but "Gaelic" is the form that has made it into the English language and, when speaking English, would be the natural word therefore to use.
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That's a fair comment, although I am aware of one or two people with a "Dalriada" theory to the effect that there was a continuum of Irish spoken across South Ulster, the IoM and SW Scotland. I think it's a bit fanciful and "Dalriada" like, but sometimes I can see where they're coming from, and I don't have the technical knowledge to challenge them anyway. Nowadays we think of Irish as having three canúintí that are distinct, separate, and of course limited in geographical range. But there was a time when hundreds upon hundreds of thousands of people spoke "Gaelic" in a continuous arc along the Western counties, across two strands of Ulster, and then into the IoM, mainland Scotland and the western Isles. Rather than separate dialects, you'd have detected a continuum of language with phrases and words changing as you travelled. Echoes of that can be seen in the similarities between the Hebrides and Tory and the last native Fanad speakers, and the hints of Gàidhlig detected in Gaeilge Oiriall (the sub-dialect spoken in Monaghan, Armagh and the Cooley Peninsula until the 1930s), as well as the way in which the Irish of SW Donegal is like a mixture of the classic Donegal Irish and Connacht Irish.
"Gaelic" is a very odd word for any Irish person to use to describe the Irish language, whether from Munster, Donegal or Dublin. "Gaelic" in reference to the language is very much a Scottish word, made all the more confusing because of their specific pronunciation - for the uninitiated, because it's the English for Gàidhlig, they pronounce it like "Gallic" when referring to the language. The word "Gaelic" is widely used in Canada, particularly in the Maritimes, but not pronounced in the Scottish manner.
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