Loan repayment

I loaned a fairly substantial amount of money a few months ago, in good faith, to a then very beloved friend who I understood to have had health issues. A totally good individual, transpired to shortly becoming an advanced alcoholic whose health was affecting work capacity.

The personal scenario has been upsetting to say the least. The actual sum of money is not at all at stake, but the fact that the person to whom it was loaned seems entirely oblivious to the personal aspect of this. “As soon as I get a job I will start to repay you” was practically as much as a response I have got.

She says she is now on road to sobriety, or not drinking. But I know alcoholics don’t always tell the truth, and that is none of my business.

If the person, who fails to communicate much since the loan, said they were still in a genuinely bad scenario I would be 100% backing. But I don’t like being treated as an idiot.

I now feel an absolute fool for having loaned this friend a substantial sum of money which they have failed to refer to in quite some time whilst yet mentioning on social media, like Facebook, Insta etc to having “rare skills” and never there being a possibility out of being out of work “in my field”. To me galling stuff to come across in the context. Feel I’m now being taken for a right royal ride. Yeah, I know I’m the biggest eejit here, but still feeling sh1te about it. i think the absolute disrespect is the most hurtful bit, but I imagine that woman might be semi oblivious to it.

Or maybe that’s being kind.

Atlantic Dawn

What did they say the loan was for? Did they spend the money on what they said it was for?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117986521#Comment_117986521

It was to relocate, I’m glad I was able to bridge the gap in that scenario which was actually necessary for her. I had been a tad puzzled as to why there weren’t any savings at all, but it has become obvious since. That is is not the issue, I was more than willing to give it in good faith. It’s more the fact that she is extremely casual about it. It’s the feeling of being so disrespected.

Billgirlylegs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117986885#Comment_117986885

I am afraid you are the only one who knows how to sort this. Most of the pieces/information in place in your post.

If you want a suggestion - Ask outright that the money be repaid. No beating around the bush or explanations.

You are either going to lose "a friend", be down the amount of the loan or probably both. You are the only one who can decide whether you are right or wrong

banie01

Not to be dismissive of your hurt OP but, long experience on my part have always held me to never lend significant sums to friends. I'll happily give the money as a dig out, but lending to friends or family often leads to issues.

My view is usually this, if a friend is asking you, your probably a last resort. Why's that?

Is the amount of money lent worth a friendship? Because if they don't pay you back or start acting like a prick? How are you going to manage that situation?

As can be inferred (rightly or wrongly) from the current situation your friend has found themselves in, lending money can often enable addictive or risky behaviour. You aren't liable for that, but, if the borrower's behaviour leads them into moral hazard, jail or injury? How do you expect them to repay?

My take on money between friends is fairly simple. Nights out and such, stand a few quid for a round or a quick dig out? It's given without any expectation of getting it back.

For a larger sums? If I'm who they're asking, it's going to be a written agreement and an agreed schedule beforehand. Then the borrower can decide if they want a friendship or a credit agreement. Money has salted far too many friendships with grief after a loan to be left to chance IMO.

And again, my advice would be caveated with the simple calculus of you needing to weigh how much the person needs the money, versus their ability to repay, versus your value of the relationship. If the relationship is one you value and the need of the person is imminent? Then in my own case, the money is given on the same basis as those night out dig outs. I never expect it back, but appreciate it when it comes.

I hope your friend can make a significant recovery.

I did just send an email reminding her as she mentioned some time back that she would start repaying me this month “when I get a job”, and would have it repaid within the year, but hasn’t made reference to it since. I don’t know if she did get a job or where etc. A simple mention, “eg now secured employment in Axa insurance, so all’s good” would have been appreciated. I’m left guessing. No there is no value there on friendship, as far as I can see she got what she needed.

I loaned a slightly smaller sum to a friend before, there was absolutely no problem, was kept duly updated and repaid.

Xterminator

Hi Op

you loaned money to an unemployed fried with health issues who happened to be an alcoholic, with no repayment schedule or date the loan become repayable etc.? that would be what i glean from your original post. Is there anything in writing at all? i take it you dont watch a lot of judge judy etc.

You have zero comeback from the courts etc, as you dont have a reasonable expectation of of repayment , or a contract even. you are relying on the goodwill of your friend. And if you really want your money back, then you need to maintain that goodwill.

“As soon as I get a job I will start to repay you” is the offer. are you happy with that? if not where do you expect the to get the money from to repay you? do you expect a lump sum or will you accept smaller payments. if payments what is their current income and what would you surmise they have left over as there disposable income? 10 euro a week? 20? how much f that would you expect them to hand over ? do they have assets you could ask to hold in case the money is not replayed? Would you consider asking a family member to step in?

for future reference if making a loan you need to form a contract (EG offer acceptance & terms), you need it in writing, and you have to have a reasonable expectation they can repay it IE they need to have an income.

i think this one will go one of 2 ways,

a)you don't get your money back and you lose a friend.

b)you get your money back eventually in a long time from now and you lose a friend.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117988820#Comment_117988820

there is a contract here and it is arguable in front of the courts. save any communications and hope the money was sent by electronic transfer.

lose this friend. Does she own a car?

Overdehils

An e-mail or a text asking for the money is really just letting them off the hook. It allows them to respond at any time & fob you off. You need to ask them face to face & get their response. Also, ask a direct question and do not feel the need to fill in any silence there may be in response...you are not the one who should feel awkward in this scenario.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117988820#Comment_117988820

I need to clarify myself.

At time of loan, she was in full employment, but with “cash flow” issues, said to be mainly due to high rent. I know rent is crazy.

I didn’t understand that the health issues stemmed entirely from alcoholism, although I know I was probably really pulling the wool over my eyes. The health issues accelerated massively since the loan was given, things got out of hand and the underlying issue became apparent only after that.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117989234#Comment_117989234

The person has now moved to another part of the country and I’m not chasing over there just for the purpose of knocking on the door and asking for it back in person. Have enough to be getting on with tbh. If I happened to be in the area for some other purpose I would not hesitate to call.

Don’t want to go the legal route, only the lawyers would win. It would cost more than the 4 figure loan.

I just think she is not in a position to pay, and wish she would just fess up, and say it, or give some explanation. I deserve that much. It’s not about the money, it’s about being taken for granted that’s the issue. The solution will be when she volunteers to explain, can’t make her do that but can only fill in the gaps in my imagination. I think the thought process that might be going on in her runs something like this: “she can afford to be without the money, so it’s no big deal. If she values her money more than she values me, that’s her loss”.

TheadoreT

I'd have to question your motivation behind all of this to begin with to be honest. Have to feel if it was out of pure kindness alone you'd have a little more compassion about her current low point and not go writing threads about her.

Addictions lead people to beg/steal/borrow and lose family and friends. Whilst you were unaware while loaning you should have more leniency in the short term while she's recovering.

You went from calling her totally good at the start to disrespectful and oblivious and taking you for a royal ride. She's probably well aware of her predicament and the likelihood is you're not the only one she owes money.

Anyway there's just a jaring juxtaposition between the aparent selfless act of lending a friend money and your complete lack of actual friendliness towards her over what's been a relatively short spell of time.

Do you like to be seen as the one who has the money to lend? "Look at Ezekiel Noisy Beer, she must be so successful". Whatever the motivation is its clearly not unconditional goodness so you need to ask yourself some hard questions here.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117989411#Comment_117989411

Yes, I fully understand where you’re coming from here, and at moments I’m compassionate, and other moments I get very annoyed. I’m swinging between both tbh. I certainly don’t think I’m great or don’t her to think that. People have been extraordinarily kind to me in the past, I was in a situation where I could help out and originally had no real reason not to. I’m not at all judgemental of the person’s predicament, only of her silence on the matter. I just reached the end of my tether as I’m flawed and faulty too. A simple message, eg “really sorry about this but I’m just not in a position to repay for the next while, though I had said I would. Things aren’t great.” Something like that would make all the difference to me. But as you say, the inability to do that may be part of the problem or maybe I’m just excusing her. Like I say, my thoughts swing from one direction to the other, and compassion fatigue sets in. I’m certainly not a person of unconditional goodness, wish I were like that as I’d save myself and others some grief.

TheadoreT

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117989726#Comment_117989726

I don't know if you originally offered or she asked but if a friend admits to such personal issues and takes money from you I imagine they're in a fairly desperate financial state and would have exhausted any bank loans/overdrafts options first. Her situation is probably far worse than you're imagining here. She's probably in a low enough place without having to demean herself further to send you regular updates. Or possibly she's passed caring, who knows, addiction can lead people to dark places.

Maybe you need to reframe this as a gift in your mind to stop yourself spiraling into frustration further. You helped a friend relocate and potentially get back on the right track. Perhaps that's worth the money.

You might get it back some time but right now don't potentially be the straw that broke her back, you may regret that

mrslancaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117989355#Comment_117989355

Has she family that could help her out and she might be able to repay you.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117990092#Comment_117990092

Definitely don’t want to be that straw, but a quick update would serve me well.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117990178#Comment_117990178

Not on any account bringing family into it at all, goodness knows like most they have issues enough. I’m really trying to address my own bit of resentment here, for better or worse.

qwerty13

I understand that you’re peeved, but it comes across to me that you want her to grovel a bit. There’s just something that feels more than simple annoyance in your posts.

Jequ0n

So you loaned money without conditions and any record of an agreement to someone? A good idea.

There are plenty of ways to make their life hell and make them pay it back, but you don’t seem like the type. Maybe just accept that your life lesson was not to trust people and their promises.

the14thwarrior

i do feel you are wanting the person to make a statement, or acknowledge that they have a job, or that they have the money, or that they don't have the money.

It's not going to happen, so you need to accept that. They would have mentioned it by now.

you may have responded differently, but they did not. Why they are not responding is a different matter, but likely because

a) once they got the money they don't feel the need to respond because money lent is money spent.

b)embaressed and ashamed as to how to respond, afraid, anxious, best not to respond until they have a plan.... which they may not.... so they won't respond. this could go on indefinitly

c) don't care as much as you do about a response, don't see it as a problem, sure what's the problem? I'll get it back to ya at some point...... and then'll I respond

d) I'll respond only if they ask for the money back

e) money? what money? sure I forgot about that...

Big Bag of Chips

You can kiss good bye to that money. Or the vast majority of it anyway. My brother in law, alcoholic, borrowed various sums from us, and many others, always with the promise of paying it back. Sometimes he'd even promise it back with interest. We never saw a cent of it. Sometimes he'd beg with "I swear to God this is the last time. If I just got x amount I'd be able to do y and then I'll pay you back everything you gave me".

I'm sure he meant it all at the time. But nobody ever saw anything they ever "loaned" him.

If she asked you for a substantial sum, she had already worked through all her other options. Because others have been stung by her before.

Probably not what you want to hear. But she's not going to pay it back. She can't. Not if she's an active alcoholic.

Darc19

Unfortunately alcoholism is a dreadful disease and those with it can become totally indifferent to truth especially if it's to get finance for their habit.

I would not necessarily blame the person themselves as they simply are not themselves. However sometimes it takes for them to hit rock bottom before they look for help.

So don't blame yourself or the person you lent to and maybe try and point them in the right direction.

wotzgoingon

......

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117990488#Comment_117990488

There was actually a full written and detailed agreement. She was all for that, expressed gratitude st the time, and yes she duly made the suggestion of “interest” which I absolutely declined as my very intention was to save that element.

As for spending habits, I think there’s a fair bit of online spending on bits and pieces going on, she is a hoarder of lots of stuff, can of gets things on a whim. Never goes for most expensive options, not at all into brands, vanity etc. Mainly crafting, hobby kind of stuff, which is fine, but I suppose it all adds up. Sometimes excessive hoarding is an addiction in itself, I suppose, but relatively harmless in most cases.

So don’t blame yourself or the person you lent to…

This is what I am hoping to aim for if I can get my head around to doing that and keep it that way as long as necessary.

Hannibal_Smith

The actual sum of money is not at all at stake

The sum of money is not at stake. You have a written agreement in relation to it. What's bothering you is she hasn't mentioned it since.

Does the agreement set out how the money is to be repaid? If it says she will repay x amount every x weeks or months and she hasn't kept to it, you'd be quite reasonable in asking what the story is.

I wouldn't expect her to constantly mention it, unless it was to apologise for not keeping to the agreement.

It's going to keep bubbling away until it boils over with you. The only thing you can do is ask her. And learn not to loan money to a friend going forward because it makes things too awkward.

mary 2021

I loaned money to a friend who needed to

top up her pension in order to get a better weekly amount. From the moment i handed it over it was stressful until its return and during that time the friendship was a tad strained. However once it was repaid i vowed never to lend money ever again. There are institutions there for lending and they should be guided towards them at every request. Never a lender or a borrower be. There is a chance you may never see your money and unfortunately its a hard lesson i was lucky i got my money back but no thanks for it.

Big Bag of Chips

It seems your biggest issue with this is that she hasn’t mentioned it to you. The reason she hasn’t mentioned is it she is not in a position to pay it back. Would you prefer if she kept telling you, as my brother in law did, every week that she’d have some of it for you next week, or in 2 weeks or when [insert unlikely to happen event here]?

She is ignoring it because she has no means to pay you back. People who tend to borrow large sums of money from friends tend to not have large sums available to them to pay it back. They also tend to not have regular small sums available to pay it back, if they did they would borrow from a bank or credit union like the rest of us.

If you want her to lay herself out to you, acknowledging that she owes you, that she doesn’t have it, that she’s unlikely to be able to pay you the full amount back any time soon, and she’s unlikely to even be able to pay you a small amount back any time soon, then tell her that’s what you want to hear from her.

But the end result will be the same. She doesn’t have it. Eventually she will start to completely avoid and ignore you because she can’t pay you back. It’s a tale as old as time. Your only hope of seeing your money back is if she finds someone else to loan her a substantial sum in order to give it back to you.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117996498#Comment_117996498

Yes, I would kind of rather be told something along the lines of “I think you can guess things mightn’t be great my end, I really didn’t intend it to be like this, but I’m struggling and don’t know when I can pay. I wish things were different.” In other words some d gave me t about it. The last I heard was some mention of start of repayment this month, but silence since and no response to an email where I asked to be reminded of the date as I had managed to fully delete old email. There was mentioned of some new job, but it has remained unspecified, where I have previously known all employments. I strongly get the feeling it somehow fell through for some e reason, or maybe it was more her wishing thinking that the job would materialise.

I think capacity to work has has been reduced due to the circumstances, and whilst I hold no judgement on that aspect (same as being unable to work due to any condition in my mind) I do take a view on the lack of communication aspect. It does my head in not to be put straight about it.

I knew that there were some health issues that could potentially mean that there could be a delay in repayment, but the problems were put down to another chronic condition that I was given to believe as a pending diagnosis. Like anybody who was in a position to do, I simply wanted to help a friend out in a scenario where they could avoid paying interest. An agreement was drawn up with built/in flexibility if a turn for the worse took place, but under the circumstances I had some expectation for the courtesy of being kept informed.

Eg, let’s say I believed she was to be diagnosed with Parkinson’s disease, need help in relocating near family, and that indeed if things did turn out that way and she couldn’t pay me any time soon or even ever, I would still be glad I did the very right thing. The fact it transpired to be a drinking issue underpinning it all, is something I got my head around because I know that can be an even more disabling condition than eg, Parkinson’s, and with best will in the world very difficult to overcome. But like if it emerged a condition of eg, Parkinson’s progressed more than expected, I would get to know and adjust my expectations. I think with the uncertainties of an alcohol problem at play, it’s causing the stumbling block in communication.

I had understood there was abstention for a while, but this is always precarious, and there may be a relapse at play. I’m guessing there is. I don’t think proper rehab was undertaken as she intended to resume work quickly, I had suggested she might take a proper break for residential/medically supervised rehab, and would actually think to write off at least some of the money if I heard this were the case.

Some moments I feel very mean in my thinking, other moments I feel totally taken for granted. There’s a very disturbing dichotomy of thought going on in my mind, and I wake up in the middle of the night with it on my mind. I do plenty of things to distract myself but the thought keeps returning.

Big Bag of Chips

You really are pinning a lot on someone who has an addiction. You're expecting a level of communication and insight and understanding similar to someone whose brain is functioning normally and not addled with drink.

Your friend would say anything, promise anything, agree to anything to get what she wanted. I suggest you read up on dealing with an alcoholic in your life because you seem to think you will be able to sort all this out with an email or a friendly request.

You won't. You gave a large sum of money to someone whose money goes on drink. Other expenses will always be secondary. Food will be second to drink. Mobile phone and Paying ESB bill will probably be next. Paying back money borrowed from various angles will be very far down the list of where money is directed to.

You got caught by someone who felt your good nature would benefit them. Other than speaking directly to her, at least weekly and saying "I want my money back" nothing else will work. Softly emails, "remind me again what we agreed to....", won't work. Your best bet is face to face telling her you want your money back. And even at that your chances are pretty slim.

SunnySundays

Chances or seeing the money are slim but that shouldn't stop you from trying. I just don't understand why you don't go direct.

Dear X, Regarding the €X amount, I really need it back especially by the end of the year If you don't have it all, I'm sure we can work out a weekly amount. Please let me know.