Pensions Age to ..... 72 !?

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117995804#Comment_117995804

The definition of Happiness...."Doing something you love doing, and getting paid for it", Recently a friend of mine retired after 45 years working..the last 40 years driving 60 miles ( 30 + 30) per day, and doing boring repetitive assembly line work. When he reached the Company's 65 year retirement age, he was offered a years extension, but he refused. Would I have done the same thing if I was in his shoes? 100% sure I would. As for the future in cases like this??? I know people who are seriously making their own retirement arrangements, but for many, this is not possible due to not having the salary to afford it.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118001808#Comment_118001808

Not to be critical of your mate, I'm a pretty risk adverse person myself as i get older, but did he ever consider changing jobs into something he wanted to do? I know that's far, far easier said than done.

deirdremf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117991784#Comment_117991784

How it works is quite simple: you pay for your parents, your kids pay for you, their kids pay for them. Even if you don't have kids, the system works because the costs are spread over the whole of the workforce.

Alternatively, we can just do away with pensions, and have people rely on their savings and hope (if they have kids) that their kids will chip in too.

If we go for the second option, while we're at it, maybe we could get rid of social welfare, socialised medicine, free education and so on.

Now as for how we are going to pay for it all as family size drops etc, it appears that many people have forgotten that productivity has risen enormously and continues to do so. In other words, greater productivity per person means that there is plenty to go round. And as technology replaces people in productive roles, it frees them to provide services, including looking after the elderly infirm.

Padre_Pio

Productivity is up, but wages and earnings are not rising to match it.

I may be 10 times faster at my job than someone in 2000 because of the internet, I'm not paid ten times more. Not even twice as much.

AckwelFoley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118002006#Comment_118002006

..why should you get paid more? You've just admitted its the Internet that makes you faster not you.

🤔

Padre_Pio

The poster above mention that more productivity = more money to go around and maintain the status quo.

My point is that although productivity has increased massively, wages and the cost of services has not matched it, hence the retirement age is rising as is cost of living and maintaining an acceptable retirement.

We're more productive than ever, but in a worse position.

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118001946#Comment_118001946

This story would have begun way back in the 70's, when the choices available back then were a far cry from what would become available later on. And by the time such choices were available, he was "married" to the job, so to speak. You have to bear in mind that people from that era, didnt have much choice...getting a job that paid well and actually liking the work involved was a rare enough thing. The legal age for finishing school was 14,, and plenty still did leave. So if you got a job, you generally stuck with it, especially if educationally, you didn't have what was called " A good Leaving". My Friend would not have been alone either.

JRant

People are living a little longer now but what is the actual quality of those years like?

Once people hit 70 their bodies usually start to seriously slow down. Even retiring at 65 doesn't give you a whole pile of quality time to enjoy life outside of doctor/hospital visits and a mountain of medication.

Maybe we need to stagger the retirement age anyway. With women living 4 years longer than men (on average) it probably needs to be factored in.

twinytwo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117993729#Comment_117993729

Sf will get into power once in this country and that will be it. They like FF/FG don't give a **** about the country. They will try to force a UI at all costs and it will be all fun and games till the money runs out.

Atlantic Dawn

When will it occur to people living here that the state pension is far far too generous? No political party will admit it but we are completely doomed. Compare our pension to the UK and couple it with the complete inaffordability for 2 people doing a days work to breed and work and you see we are finished.

Rechuchote

"Generous" is the right-wing way of referring to a pension we've paid for through social insurance.

If you want to look at pension rates, look at those of TDs, ministers and the civil servants against which their pensions are benchmarked.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118002024#Comment_118002024

If people didn’t get productivity gains manifested in wage increases then we would be where we were in 1840.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118003511#Comment_118003511

Productivity on its own doesn’t increase wages.

that said his claim that the internet increases productivity by 10 times is nonsense.

AckwelFoley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118003596#Comment_118003596

Productivity gains absolutely based on staff output.

But if I invest 1 million on a mill I'm not paying the staff anymore because I can produce more.. the mill is.. staff are now pressing a button instead of grinding it tje old way

Better working conditions for staff.. but they aren't working harder because I bought the mill

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118003621#Comment_118003621

Maybe that’s why we needed unions to get wages increased. And not having them in the private sectors is a problem.

As Henry Ford realised independent of unions, to get people to buy his cars he needed a consumer society. So he raised wages to encourage other manufacturers to do the same. They did.

real wages can increase if productivity increases reduce prices across the board. Most economists don’t like that as the deflationary effects cause other problems.

AckwelFoley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118003656#Comment_118003656

A well run business will pay their staff well because a good business will value their staff and won't want to waste time and money retraining staff every time someone leaves for a better paid job. Most people don't want ti leave their job of its one they like.. but if pay and conditions are poor, the inevitable will happen

There is a practice I believe in the pub trade where young staff are taken on but not paid for 2 weeks because its considered "training"

I find that practice absolutely immoral in the least and is on the other end of the spectrum of decent business practice.

(If they weren't picking up glasses for free during "training" someone would have to be paid to do it) I'm surprised it's legal

Successive governments from ~2010 sold our future for votes. By 2010, we were in a position to start reducing national debt while interest rates were at a historic low. Instead the debt stayed static, and actually grew a little over the next decade until the pandemic struck. We're now at a level of debt that will take generations to get back under control, and an interest rate rise could make even interest-only repayments punishing to maintain.

We had the capacity in that golden decade to reinvest in the rainy day/pension fund and ringfence the money. It wouldn't solve the pensions shortfall, but it would certainly help. As people (like me) are retiring over the next 20 years, the generation coming up behind them will not tolerate a government that has a policy of plundering their income to shore up the pensions of the previous generation - why should they? The solution will be, and I'm convinced of this, more unsustainable borrowing while the population demographics equalize. This will result in misery for a generation, for the sins of the generation that preceded them.

Iscreamkone

We need to bite the bullet with public sector pensions. If my old age pension is reduced or postponed until I'm older, I can't see why the PS pensions are not reduced accordingly. This is something I'd take to the streets about.

Padre_Pio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118003621#Comment_118003621

But you the owner are making x10 the money as you were before. Your staff are making the same or less.

It's the situation we're in now, where there is a huge wage gap between skilled and unskilled labour, and the idea of "working your way up from the bottom" is all but dead.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118003910#Comment_118003910

in theory. However as I said that’s not the way it has historically worked. If there were no wage inflation the U.K. average wage would be £30 now same as 1850, but chickens would cost a penny or less as opposed to about £1 then. I’m using the U.K. because we have lots of data for it.

In practice both real wages and nominal wages have increased since the 19C because wage increases have exceeded inflation. If wages had stayed static and prices had dropped we would have been in a century of deflation, and most economists think that (much) worse than inflation.

also the capitalist who bought the “mill” may benefit from selling more of his produce, but only if there’s a market for it. The market would be greater if other wage earners earned more, of course.

Henry Ford III

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118003865#Comment_118003865

It's actually a bit worse than that.

Post the financial crisis of the government actually raided the National Pensions Reserve Fund to pay back interest and debt. They also raided private pensions for a period too.

AckwelFoley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118004097#Comment_118004097

If you're unhappy as an employee with your unskilled labour wages, Open up your own mill then and invest the 1 million in your own mill machine and take the risks and reap the rewards of an open and free economy

Padre_Pio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118004249#Comment_118004249

Ah that old nugget.

I made a million euro, why don't you do it too?!

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118004249#Comment_118004249

Sure, once the mill worker gets the million, off he goes. It’s a totally fair system

your philosophy is the philosophy of feudalism.

(all off topic though).

AckwelFoley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118004317#Comment_118004317

No. My philosophy is the real world. Your philosphy is the richard boyd barrets mantra. Its not feudalism..I had to borrow the money for my miling machine like every other business

Your argument is the more I earn the more you should get paid. Does that mean if I'm running a loss I don't have to pay you?

We will agree that this is all off topic so I shall draw a line under it here

________________________________________

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118004385#Comment_118004385

I’m not a socialist. Capitalism with real wage increases is what i support. Nor am I an employee of yours (or an employee).

If capitalism had in fact worked like you want it to then there would have been no wage increases ever, no matter what new technology was introduced. Far from being pro capitalist this is actually the Marxist position on how capitalism would work. Thankfully they, and you, were wrong.

Strumms

The fùck ill be working into my '70's...

Retiring between 60-65, if earlier all the better... nice stash of savings, private pension since my 20's.. so fûck that... it just confirms us as a fûcking properly grim country going down the absolute tubes if we are expecting people to work into their 70’s ffs... we need to start focusing on enabling and propping up our wellbeing and enjoyment of life.... fûck anybody else quite frankly.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118002235#Comment_118002235

I fully get it, it's hard to leave what you know, especially when there's financial pressures on you (mortgage, kids etc).

Still, everyone reading this thread is well warned to avoid something similar happening to themselves. It's something I think about frequently.

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118004662#Comment_118004662

Times change, and since the time I was talking about, they have improved beyond recognition in every way..I doubt that there are many leaving school at 14 years of age nowadays,and that has to be a good thing. And maybe it should be included in the school curriculim as a subject? As in what does the future hold financial wise in the retirement years? And planned for?

Trigger Happy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118004914#Comment_118004914

Pensions should indeed be covered as a part of the school curriculum. We were lucky enough to have a civics teacher in the 80s who told us all about pensions and the importance of starting one up early and not be at the mercy of the state when you retire. The irony of a teacher teaching us this was not lost.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118004914#Comment_118004914

I mean people now should be warned enough to not get stuck in a job they can't stand and the only prospect of escape is retirement. While I have sympathy for your friend to be trapped as he was, any one reading this who hates their gig is doing themselves no favours by not trying to escape.

Easier said than done.

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118004979#Comment_118004979

Yes, especially now, when there are choices for career changes, even if there are difficultys...in the times I am speaking about there were very few, if at all career change opportunities' , and its those generations which are now making up a large nr of pensioners as well.

Parkender

I haven't read through every post so apologies in advance if this has been covered. I know this issue has been and to re-iterate - the state cannot reduce the pension age - it's not affordable. So SF's policy is a load of ****. The other point to make is that there has been little outside the box thinking on this. It is still all about age and amount. To sort this out, the first thing the state needs to do is abolish mandatory retirement ages. This then makes it easier for individuals to decide when they want to retire......in addition to this they then need to realise not every worker is sitting behind a desk - asking a labourer to work to age 68 is not right and while life expectancy has increased dramatically - it doesn't necessarily mean workers can work longer. Cognitive decline on average kicks in at c. age 58. So what can be done? The state needs to put a figure on the "pot" of money it can afford to give pensioners. Then that pot can be calculated on an what it is worth on an annual basis from age 55 right up to age 85. Thereby the likes of labourers can retire earlier, albeit on a lower annual "pension" and those that want to retire later can do same but on a higher amount. Everyone gets the same amount based on life expectancy etc. There has to be much more flexibility with this issue and not this hard-lined "pension age" going forward. This will also allow "phased" retirement for those that can.....again thinking of labourers etc......

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118004943#Comment_118004943

Should be part of Home Economics, which should be a fundamental subject up to Junior Cert. In school the 70s I had Civics classes which addressed this to a certain extent, but not enough. I was more than eager to learn a bit more in this direction, but of course my mother at home often talked about the importance of pensions and looking for a job with such prospects from the start of my working life.

Mad_maxx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118003540#Comment_118003540

Vast majority of people in receipt of the state pension will draw down far more than they made in contributions throughout their working lives

Incredible level of ignorance surrounding the pension.

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118006444#Comment_118006444

The problem is the willingness to work until age 72 is one thing, but getting hired at age 70 is another thing. And if this isn't enough there are certainly health matters to consider as well.

So the matter of pension age is far more than politics not knowing how to pay for the pension and just putting the age up and up. I would also expect the age not to be 72, but 75 in around 20 years time from now.

thomas 123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118006444#Comment_118006444

Is that omitting all the other tax we pay to the state and selectively just using PRSI? Any stats to back it up?

Mad_maxx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118017000#Comment_118017000

Income tax doesn't go towards pension provision

thomas 123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118017037#Comment_118017037

Of course, but you cant just make sweeping statements like "The vast majority of people in receipt of the state pension will draw down far more than they made in contributions throughout their working lives" when the reality is most people pay a lot of tax albeit not directly in PRSI.

We pay masses of tax for everything in Ireland, the least we should be demanding is our retirement age staying at 65.

Geuze

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118003927#Comment_118003927

This has already happened.

PS pensions have been made less generous.

Mad_maxx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118017059#Comment_118017059

Fine but the rate is too high

thomas 123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118017115#Comment_118017115

Ah sure look It wont matter at all in 30 years time when the first batches of people who had to rent all their lives get to retirement.

• No assets for nursing homes to put a lean on
• No property you can convert a bit to look after yourself(Wheelchair, handrails, etc)
• Probably less kids to help you out since you could just about afford rent

Its a real ticking time bomb with no creative solution's being brought forward by our leaders.

LeeroyJ.

post made by accident, sorry

Mr. teddywinkles

Yis will be paying for the green future most people coming up wont be able to afford a pension.

Was there not riots in France a couple years ago over a slight pension age increase a few years ago. Irish people sure like taking it up the bum hole here.

People shite on about life expectancy. I'd just go off the lifespan of my grandparents 81 and 83.

So I'd have just 10 years mind you about 6 totally crippled and in a chair like them. So 4 to 5ish in proper retirement.

Yea right lads!

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118144615#Comment_118144615

if we continue to approach these issues the same old way, we certainly will be, but since the same ould story wont work to resolve these issues, expect major changes ahead

dubrov

It's a straight choice between tracing younger workers more or extend the pension age. Neither will be palatable but the OAP vote is strong

dubrov

*taxing

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118144719#Comment_118144719

...its actually not really, we can still maintain our pensionable ages, and keep our economy moving, we just need to embrace things such as public debt, and reduce our reliance on private debt, in running our economies

dotsman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118144743#Comment_118144743

At quarter of a trillion in public debt, I think we have already embraced it. In fact we have over-embraced it. To the point that it is now one of the biggest risks facing this country (especially if sinn fein form part of a future government), and even if we don't borrow another cent (which we are doing just to keep the broken welfare state going) it could easily result in a financial crisis bigger than the '08 one in the next 5 to 15 years.

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118146139#Comment_118146139

hahaha, horsesh1t, we have to move on from this major fear of public debt, private debt has become the far bigger problem nowadays, as 08 showed us, yet again, graph supplied,

Ireland Debt.jpg

theres now sufficient evidence globally to support this, oh and as you can see, public debt actually had little or nothing to do with 08, it was all primarily private debt

Strumms

The only way forward is to control the population increases year on year to a manageable level. That does mean border controls and an option to refuse people seeking assistance here. A 7 year additional wait till you are 72 ? The average life expectancy with people having to work that long will plummet...