Ryanair ambush of passengers who used chargebacks during Covid

plodder

Credit card chargebacks are controversial obviously, but I always assumed that the card issuer did some due diligence and gave the vendor some opportunity to give their side of the story.

What's interesting about this case with Ryanair, is how they wait until the passenger is about to board the aircraft (through a subsequent booking) <correction at check-in time not boarding> and then ambush them with the demand to repay the chargeback. At that point you are under duress and stand to lose a lot of money if you can't travel, as opposed to when you are just booking the flight and might simply choose another airline.

It doesn't feel right that that kind of behaviour would be legal. Companies and individuals will regularly do business with each other while they might be in dispute over something else. That's why we have the courts for example. What if other companies did similar things after they felt their T&Cs had been broken in some way? There was such a case in Germany where Lufthansa sued a passenger, but they lost the case, and didn't get to unilaterally impose their will like Ryanair is here.

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/travel/ryanair-bars-passengers-from-flying-unless-they-repay-pandemic-chargebacks-1.4698690

Seve OB

Well not quite when they are about to board but rather when they are checking in which in most cases now they would be a day or 2 in advance while they are still at home

silver2020

They booked non refundable tickets.

And once the flight has happened, a refund is not due.

Seve OB

if you don’t take a flight you are entitled to a refund of the airport fees/landing charges/taxes

buts it’s impossible, tried it before and gave up

Seve OB

Anyway how do they know it’s same person?

is it down to email/ account you have with them?

can you just set up a new account?

Fann Linn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118012426#Comment_118012426

Or is it cc/dc details they are using to identify people by?

plodder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118012408#Comment_118012408

T&Cs (like tickets not being refundable) aren't always lawful. Like the Lufthansa condition that said if you book a multi-sector flight you must use all of the sectors (otherwise you could be abusing the condition to get a cheaper point to point flight). That condition was found to be unlawful basically in the German courts.

I see the ambush happened at checkin time rather than at the airport. My mistake on that. The point is still the same though. They have your money from the new flight and whatever leverage that it being only a day or two to traveling.

titan18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118012408#Comment_118012408

Tbf, the only reason the flight happened is cos Ryanair didn't want to give refunds. There was no one on the flights in a fair few cases

Fann Linn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118012426#Comment_118012426

As Pat Kenny just guessed there they probably put a 'stop' on the passport. Makes sense.

Ardent

Unsuprising scumbag move from a scumbag company.

Dempo1

Read about this earlier, no Doubt Joe Duffy will be on later going off on another poorly researched Rant (he's been caught out , quite a lot lately)

So, yes, it's appalling, Disgraceful, Typical theatrics from Ryanair but.......

MOL is sitting in his office this morning with a dirty big smirk on his face not giving a complete toss and why? Because Ryanair are entirely correct or so according to the T&C's customers affected accepted on booking non refundable seats. I'm not saying its right or wrong but Ryanair are simply enforcing their T&C's and there's Nada, Zilch anyone can do about it.

Personally I've never, ever, ever flown with this shower but do get a giggle out of MOL absolute intolerance at times.

I'm just hoping MOL gets invited onto da liveline later, that would truely be Radio Gold, last time he appeared he B****H Slapped Joe Duffy for an entire 45 minutes, clip available on you tube.

plodder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118012447#Comment_118012447

There could be a GDPR angle with that, as the reason why they collect passport numbers is for a completely different purpose.

L1011

Ryanair should have had ground to dispute the chargeback - if they didn't they really can't complain/act now.

Dempo1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118012532#Comment_118012532

Doubtful ( I'm not an expert) but affected passengers willingly submitted their details including, presumably passport's, can't see this move by Ryanair being a GDPR issue, besides as part of a charge back application, passengers would have disclosed additional information willingly, just a guess mind you 😉

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118012556#Comment_118012556

Willingly submitting your details for one purpose does not allow them to be used for any other purpose without specific consent for that purpose.

But we don't know that's how they're identifying people.

Dempo1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118012563#Comment_118012563

Just my own opinion so to speak , I'm guessing by the mere fact affected passenger's submitted their details and further lodged complaints they fully engaged with Ryanair and indeed an entirely separate financial institution a GDPR challenge would be very difficult. I'd certainly think MOL and Ryanairs legal department have ticked quite a few boxes before going down this path.

I'm not saying it's right or wrong but MOL has proven quite resilient in defending Ryanairs actions in the past, however unsavoury they may seem.

plodder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118012563#Comment_118012563

Right. Except that their excuse for ambushing at checkin time could be that they only know who they are dealing with when the passport number is provided. That was always going to be a dubious excuse given credit card numbers are probably a better (and more GDPR compliant) way of identifying people in this situation. But, then they couldn't avoid the ambush charge.

It's possible they run some kind of report on a day's bookings, after the fact, to find these cases, but you'd expect them to contact the customer within a day or two after booking by email then. It still looks like a deliberate ambush.

Dempo1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118012590#Comment_118012590

You could be right but I just wonder can this be really described as a deliberate ambush. I ask in the sense, its likely these charge backs took place months ago, passengers affected thought, that's grand, only to discover that now they can fly again, I'll book a new flight and discovered Ryanair enforcing T&C's from previous booking. I guess separately Ryanair should have communicated to all passengers affected months ago, this little nugget will crop up on their next booking . In essence, Ryanair saying, pay up or book elsewhere, which they are technically entitled to do, unsavoury as it May seem.

KildareP

Mightn't be the most customer friendly way of doing it, but their Privacy Policy and Conditions of Carriage will have them covered.

Quite a number of companies will refuse further custom from you if you do a chargeback where they still provided the product or service (even if you argue you couldn't avail of it) and will just cite "fraud prevention" if you ask them why.

Dempo1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118012664#Comment_118012664

I tend to agree 👍

Fatnacho

The payment processors don’t have enough resources to check if every chargeback claim by a buyer/passenger is valid. Additionally, Ryanair wouldn’t have had time to respond to the thousands of chargeback claims they received every day.

Therefore, most of the chargebacks were accepted and refunded without much of a review, even if the flight operated as scheduled. It’s also in the credit card companies interest to keep their customers happy by providing a hassle free refund.

Ryanair have obviously spent some time reviewing the chargeback refunds and realised some passengers received refunds for flights that operated. Now they are trying to retroactively to get those funds back by claiming the service was provided.

silver2020

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118012439#Comment_118012439

True - sometimes very unusual and unfair terms and conditions can be considered unenforceable, but a fairly standard condition that a flight is not refundable if it proceeds is neither unfair or unusual.

Bit of a bummer that there were state imposed restrictions that made it difficult to take the flight, but an airline can't be blamed for that. A basic level of travel insurance (if taken out pre-covid) would most likely have covered it

plodder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118012664#Comment_118012664

The second paragraph is reasonable enough (which is why you don't tend to hear about it in the media). You write it off and don't deal with the person again, or else you pursue the debt through the normal way. In this case, they agreed to carry the passenger, but then said a couple of days before travel - we're not carrying you until this other matter is resolved. And the matter is a charge back, not something like a court judgment in favour of Ryanair, which the passenger couldn't claim they didn't have to repay.

For it not to be an ambush, what could Ryanair have done differently?

1) contacted the customer straight after the charge-back and said we aren't carrying you again until you repay us

2) refused the subsequent booking for the same reason at the time of booking

3) If there are technical problems doing 2) then they could have contacted the passenger and cancelled the booking soon after, or at least presented the ultimatum at that point.

Even if the ambush wasn't deliberate and the charge backs weren't noticed until much later, that's a problem with their systems. They shouldn't be just dumping on the customer at the last minute in any event.

Seve OB

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118012447#Comment_118012447

yes i heard him, but disagree

the first flight was never "checked in" so they didn't have the passport details to begin with

the lady he interviewed didn't pick up on that but she did raise the question and made my point that it could have been the ryanair account or credit card.

i don't really see that it is that going to be hard to get around.

i mean i have often booked flights for other people and all you give is names at the time of booking.

so in a family situation, just get the other half to book next time around.

plodder

Personally, I don't agree with credit card charge backs. I've had several disputes with retailers (and even Ryanair themselves once) and they were all resolved in other ways. What we have here is Ryanair essentially using the same kind of tactic against their customer. They had an outstanding debt, but decided to hold a gun to the passenger's head, and get the money back that way. There's an asymmetric relationship between customer and Ryanair here. They often don't take complaints seriously, but are able to bully the customer in situations like this, which is why we need strong consumer protection laws that take priority over airline T&Cs imo.

KildareP

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118012869#Comment_118012869

I think chargebacks are important, I did need to use it once where an online retailer had a habit of not delivering orders and then refusing to engage with customers. But I'd agree, you should exhaust all other avenues first and, in the case where you're not entitled to a refund, a chargeback is not the right way forward.

Ryanair have a bit of a track record when it comes to being customer friendly (or not!) so I'm not surprised this is how they're approaching the issue.

Personally, I'd use Ryanair only as an absolute last resort, but of course Michael O'Leary would point out that they're the number one air carrier in Europe so what does my opinion matter 🙂

bikeman1

It is important to note that there was only a travel advisory in place at the time to leave Ireland in September 2020. I travelled to non "green list" countries in August and September 2020. While you were asked / advised to not travel by our NPHT crew, it was not illegal to travel at that time. In fact I had return flights booked before the pandemic with Ryanair and they operated them. I returned from Germany and there was only about 30 of us on the flight.

We unduly cancelled summer / early autumn 2020 abroad for little to no reason, unlike our neighbours.

When it comes to money and a tough business like Ryanair, the rules and conditions are what matters. They provided the service, it was not illegal to travel, you book a cheap non-refundable. You incorrectly got a refund from your CC company, then you don't get to fly with them again until your debt is settled.

My guess is that on check in, that was when they could verify it was you. Name, DOB and passport details matched up to the banned list.

It also sends out a very strong message about chargebacks with Ryanair. Do them at your peril. It's an open market, so you can choose to fly with someone else, but those options are limited, especially with the downward spiral at Aer Lingus.

Seve OB

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118013183#Comment_118013183

but as i say, the first flight was never checked in, so how can they match details up?

has to be either by the ryanair account, email address or cc/dc details

FishOnABike

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118012664#Comment_118012664

In that case shouldn't they refuse custom when a booking is being made - passenger details (including passport) need to be entered for every ticket being booked.

Accepting the booking, taking payment and only refusing a customer when it comes to check-in is underhanded if not extortion.

The issue also arises whether it is the original passenger or original customer, or both (they might not always be one and the same) that are blocked at check-in.

theteal

Interesting. I got a chargeback at the start of all this and I've recently been to Dublin and back via Ryanair. Not a word said.

My March 2020 flights were indeed cancelled but I wasn't willing to take the voucher "offer".

blackwhite

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118012590#Comment_118012590

It's a breach of PCI regulations for card details to be retained without most of the number being hashed out. The only way you can use "remember card" technology is really via encrypted tokenisation which requires additional customer consent at the time of taking.

Even if that is being done - customers can still have different cards to use, cards may have expired/lost and been replaced with new ones.

Either way - I don't have a whole lot of sympathy for anyone who submitted a false chargeback claim, and then thinking they'd gotten away with it were stupid enough to try and use the same service provider again expecting there to be no consequence.

If it were a case where Ryanair had cancelled the flights then I'd have sympathy - but in cases when the flights operated as scheduled, AND where the passenger could have availed of the voucher offer (which would have paid for the new flight that's causing the problem now), then the passengers can only blame themselves

blackwhite

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118013444#Comment_118013444

I'd guess the difference is that your flights were actually cancelled, so you had a legal entitlement to a refund (whether or not Ryanair wanted to offer it or not!)

FishOnABike

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118012797#Comment_118012797

Would retaining credit card details between one booking and another be Payment Card Industry Data Security Standards compliant?

I think how Ryanair have identified returning customers who previously made a chargeback needs to be clarified and whether it is PCI-DSS compliant.

Noxegon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058212895/ryanair-ambush-of-passengers-who-used-chargebacks-during-covid

Vendors are not consulted when a chargeback occurs. Worse yet, there is often an administration fee levied.

I used to sell a small selection of software for macOS through a third party payment processor. When a chargeback occurred they hit me with a $15 bill in addition to taking the money back. I did have the ability to contest, but that cost another $15 minimum with no guarantees, and as the fees were more than my sale price there was no point in chasing things.

These days I sell on the App Store instead: https://apps.apple.com/ie/app/superior-solitaire/id1570982173?mt=12

Coming back to the point, though: I don't think Ryanair are in the wrong here.

To those saying that the debt should be collected at booking time, think about what you're saying for a minute; if you're booking a flight and the price suddenly jumps up by €700 because of an outstanding debt, you're presumably going to go to another airline and Ryanair will get nothing at all. If they were to email you after your booking was made, that wouldn't help either; you'd issue another chargeback and Ryanair would be even worse off and they'd have to chase you through the courts.

Ambushing passengers at check in is a bit tacky, sure – but I'd suggest that the customers started it when they stole money from Ryanair by making invalid chargebacks.

monkeybutter

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118013646#Comment_118013646

If thats the case, I'd be charging back this flight and another payments made to ryan air.

plodder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118013646#Comment_118013646

I take your point about how chargebacks work but to describe it as the customer "stealing" money from Ryanair is a bit OTT. I saw in a report in the Guardian today that Ryanair are in fact offering a refund of the subsequent fare, if the passenger chooses not to repay the chargeback. That I suspect is to avoid them being accused of stealing (obtaining under a false pretense) part of the chargeback back from the passenger. The implication of allowing companies to do this could be fairly severe. Eg anyone who has a direct debit mandate could dip into your bank account and take money they believe they are owed. A lot of people here seem to think Ryanair are in the right here, and maybe they are. But, the reason why we have courts is to adjudicate on questions like that. If I feel a company owes me money and they aren't playing ball, I can't just put my hands in their till and take it back.

Noxegon

Respectfully, I disagree. Customer purchases service with specific terms and conditions with respect to refunds. Customer decides not to use service, and is declined a refund. Instead of accepting that, they go to their credit card company and use the chargeback mechanism to take money that they're not entitled to under the terms they themselves agree to.

For me, that's theft.

dubdaymo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118014511#Comment_118014511

Bank of Ireland has now admitted they were wrong to instigate chargebacks.

Bank of Ireland says it was wrong to seek refund for Ryanair passenger who requested it (irishtimes.com)

A spokeman for the bank adds, “We didn’t handle this matter appropriately, and we have contacted the customer to rectify things.”

No sign, though, of an apology to Ryanair for stealing their money. They agree that before the chargebacks were instigated they didn't bother to contact Ryanair and check which says a lot about the bank and its procedures.

plodder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118024821#Comment_118024821

So, that implies that vendors are normally consulted when a charge back occurs. Though, I'm not sure whether I believe that 100%. Is Ryanair a major customer of Bank of Ireland, I wonder ..... ? Anyone know what the rules for charge backs actually are?

Noxegon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118026643#Comment_118026643

They're not consulted – the bank reviews the case and makes a decision. See here:

https://www.chargebackgurus.com/blog/merchant-chargebacks-101-what-they-are-why-they-matter

Seve OB

How long does it take for a chargeback?

I was double charged in a shop I was in and put through a chargeback claim over a month ago and still haven’t been refunded.

I know on the otherhand in my business we get hit with a fair few chargebacks, they take the money off us straight away and make us state our case

blackwhite

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118027177#Comment_118027177

Vendors typically are offered a chance to dispute the chargeback, and to submit any evidence to dispute the customer's claim.

We use AIBMS for our card acquiring, and there's a standardised letter we get informing us of every chargeback, and giving us a deadline to dispute it within.

During the height of covid, AIBMS warned us that most of the merchant responses weren't getting looked at - due to volume - and that the card companies were typically paying out the majority of chargeback requests without any investigation. The BOI statement above seems to bear that out

goingnowhere

Presumably they are joining the dots via the chargeback itself as the transaction description should include the booking reference number?

Qprmeath

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118032578#Comment_118032578

I put in one against Aer Lingus Sept 2020 and got money back May 2021.

theteal

Weird update in line with this topic. As mentioned previously, my flight was cancelled and the unasked for voucher provided instead of requested refund so I did a chargeback and all went through in no time at all. I have since flown with them with no issue.

Just today I have received an email from them reminding me that my voucher will expire soon and provides a couple of options - one of which is refund. Not really sure what I'm going to do with that. It's a tiny amount in the scheme of things.