GAA need to step up

Choochtown

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119466847#Comment_119466847

What a strange contradictory article.

He claims (correctly) that the GAA is non-political when he states that "I have never heard such conversations at my own clubs where my family and I have played and mentored for generations"

and then later he calls on the GAA to "confine themselves" to promoting their games.

Another baseless attack on the GAA only at least this time the perpetrator admits he's talking bolllix before he talks it!

Beasty

Off topic posts deleted

downcow

Here is a decent piece from Tom Elliot again being fairly clear why the GAA cannot be regarded as inclusive….

𝐌𝐲 𝐫𝐞𝐬𝐩𝐨𝐧𝐬𝐞 𝐭𝐨 𝐅𝐫𝐚𝐧𝐤 𝐌𝐢𝐭𝐜𝐡𝐞𝐥𝐥'𝐬 𝐚𝐫𝐭𝐢𝐜𝐥𝐞 𝐨𝐧 𝐭𝐡𝐞 𝐆𝐀𝐀

I read Frank Mitchell’s defence of the GAA in Saturday’s Belfast Telegraph Weekend magazine. I have no wish to get involved in the East Belfast debate, but it is important to balance the view that is often portrayed of the GAA as an organisation where everyone is welcome.

While I understand Frank’s views on the GAA from a sporting organisation it cannot be isolated from the organisation’s political perspective.

I have the greatest of respect for many who play GAA as they see it as a sporting institution. 

However the reality of the GAA organisation is much different. For years I and everyone who was a member of the Northern Ireland security services were banned by the GAA to be a member or part of their organisation.

Even now under the GAA main aim and one of the GAA rule’s state:

‘the strengthening of the National Identity in a 32 County Ireland through the preservation and promotion of Gaelic Games and pastimes.’

‘Membership of the Association shall be granted only by a Club, to persons who subscribe to and undertake to further the aims and objects of the Gaelic Athletic Association, as stated in the Official Guide’

Therefore I believe that someone from the Unionist community could not be accepted for membership of the organisation as Unionists cannot subscribe to the National Identity in a 32 County Ireland.  

There are of course a long list of links between the GAA and militant Irish Republicanism, including IRA murderers. At least the Ulster GAA Chief Executive Brian McEvoy has been honest enough to admit that it is not just a sporting organisation, that it has a much wider remit, a fact that is highlighted by its aims and rules, which broadly makes it a strong political advocate.

Even in recent times we have witnessed members of GAA teams shouting and chanting pro IRA slogans when passing events from a unionist tradition, we often witness pro IRA singing and chanting by GAA team competition winners.

The institution continues its practice of flying the Irish Tricolour and signing the Republic of Ireland National Anthem at matches, even in Northern Ireland. Can you imagine the uproar if it was insisted that the Union Fly and UK National Anthem be played at all NIFL League football matches or Ulster Rugby Championship games, it wouldn’t be accepted or tolerated, but the GAA continue their tradition of anti-unionist traditions.

Indeed we are aware of those from a Protestant, even though mixed marriage background that have suffered terrible intimidation and bullying when they were part of the GAA setup, this has been witnessed in a number of areas including Fermanagh and Cavan, the latter which ended with tragic circumstances.

I acknowledge and applaud the volunteer spirit and commitment of the GAA; I also accept that many of those playing the sport are involved for the sport and not the institution’s wider political connotations. 

It may have a very small number of participants from a unionist or protestant background, it may have provided a setting for a Muslim celebration, but the reality is that the GAA is an organisation that is designed to promote an Irish Nationalist/ Republican agenda, its rules and constitution at the very least discourage anyone from a unionist viewpoint from being part of the organisation and the vast majority of its history and actions consolidate that view, with pro-Irish Nationalist/Republican and anti-Unionist/Protestant activities.

While I accept the right to promote the sporting and volunteer nature of the GAA, please stop trying to dress it up as an organisation for all – Because that it certainly is not.

FrancieBrady

Tom might want to look at why the security forces were barred from joining.

Fionn1952

Irish sport in promoting Irish culture shocker..... Tom Elliot is a shining example of the old adage, 'an empty vessel makes the most noise'. Great man for weighing in on anything themmuns and ne'er a word when it's on his side. Painfully aware of him on a personal level from my years in Fermanagh.

downcow

A heavy dose of ‘shoot the messenger’ in above two posts. The bottom line is the GAA rule book says I cannot join, just the same as the orange rule book says you cannot join the OO. Two exclusive organisations. One is honest about it and the other lives in denial.

Fionn1952

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119535594#Comment_119535594

Go ahead and quote the rule which prohibits you from joining there, Downcow.

‘Membership of the Association shall be granted only by a Club, to persons who subscribe to and undertake to further the aims and objects of the Gaelic Athletic Association, as stated in the Official Guide’ certainly isn't a prohibition of people from a Unionist background and Rule 21 has been gone for over 20 years.

Jaysus if we're going to let how things were 20 years ago be an indictment on the current state of affairs, your beloved NI soccer team doesn't come out looking too hot.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119535594#Comment_119535594

Nowhere deos gaa rulebook (nor the orange order) say this,I know of people whom membership is of both

Your blowing smoke mate

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119535594#Comment_119535594

No it doesn't.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119535611#Comment_119535611

Here you go.

GAA aim:

“the strengthening of the National Identity in a 32 County Ireland through the preservation and promotion of Gaelic Games and pastimes.’”

I must subscribe to that anti-unionist position to be accepted as a member. I absolutely can’t.

Fionn1952

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119539429#Comment_119539429

Absolutely incorrect, you CHOOSE to find those mutually exclusive. I don't find it in any way difficult to understand how someone would wish to support the strengthening of the Ulster Scots identity while supporting Unification, nor do I find it difficult to understand how someone may wish to remain part of your United Kingdom while also wishing to preserve and protect the Irish identity that is still inherently part of that.

Much like I don't wish to see the Ulster Scots people and culture wiped out should Unification occur, I fully understand how someone who wishes to preserve your Union would wish to preserve and protect such an inherent part of our shared history.

Try again, Downcow.....this time without your own prejudice and hatred towards anything Irish.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119539811#Comment_119539811

I’m not sure why you are struggling to understand.

to be a member of the GAA I must “the strengthening of the National Identity in a 32 County Ireland”. Spin that any way you want, but it clearly says that I should be strengthening the ‘National Identity’ in County Down. And we all know this refers to Irish national identity.

the national identity I want to promote in Co Down is UK national identity.

therefore I cannot have integrity and join the GAA. And my local club could not have integrity and allow me to join.

simple. Same as OO only OO is honest about their exclusion

Fionn1952

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119542287#Comment_119542287

It is perfectly feasible to be a Unionist and also support one's Irish identity and culture. I'd be hard pressed to tell Ian Paisley that he wasn't a Unionist.

Your hatred of anything Irish is entirely separate from your Unionism. Your inability to separate them isn't the GAA's issue, it is yours.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119542842#Comment_119542842

In general you are correct about being a unionist but also supporting one's Irish identity.

However, if anything, the Irish identity is becoming more exclusionary as the decades go by.

Fionn1952

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119543074#Comment_119543074

I'd disagree very heavily with you, Blanch. There's a few getting more insular and more exclusionary, but the average person with an Irish identity and culture is much more accepting than 30+ years ago.

Trying to view the norm through the lens of those of us who engage in online discussion is a fools errand. I don't think myself, yourself or Downcow are in any way representative of the average person. Whether we like to admit it or not, we're all suffering from a bit of entrenchment albeit from three differing positions. Whether you realise it or not, your own position is just as exclusionary as that you castigate so heavily; you're so determined to avoid doing anything that doesn't include everyone that you're willing to exclude majority opinions seeking an unachievable pipe dream.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119543787#Comment_119543787

What I mean by that is that you get an increasing cohort who suggest that you're not really Irish unless you speak the language etc. That is very different to the concept of Irishness that Paisley thought he could belong to.

I am talking about this experience from real life, not from on here.

Fionn1952

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119543861#Comment_119543861

My grasp of the language is piss poor, Blanch. Growing up in the NI education system, we could have an entire discussion about why that is.....and a whole other one about why I didn't go further on my own graw.......but I could count on my fingers the number of people who have tried to diminish my Irishness because of it. I'd very comfortably argue that the cohort you're talking about is smaller now than at any time in our lifetimes.

Given that the average person you're usually trying to accuse of, 'exclusionary nationalism' has an even worse standard than I do, I suspect you may be overblowing this issue.

I do also note you completely dodged addressing your own exclusionary nationalism.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119544745#Comment_119544745

I am not a fervent nationalist, therefore I can't by definition be an exclusionary nationalist. You may accuse me of being exclusionary something else if you wish, but not an exclusionary nationalist.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119542842#Comment_119542842

it says National Identity - A very different thing to Irish identity. The fact you needed to change it says it all

Fionn1952

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119550219#Comment_119550219

And yet plenty of people from a Unionist background don't feel that it prevents them from being part of the GAA. You can moan all you want, fact is it is your problem Downcow, not the organisation.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119550343#Comment_119550343

Fionn the fact you felt the need to spin it from ‘national identity’ to ‘Irish identity’ is a bit of a giveaway to what you truly think - no matter what you pretend to think.

if it said ‘Irish identity’ then certainly any unionists who felt Irish could join with integrity, but it doesn’t say Irish identity. Either way it still rules me out.

Fionn1952

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119550740#Comment_119550740

Rules you out, doesn't rule all Unionists out and CERTAINLY doesn't rule all Protestants out. How does that look beside your precious Orange Order you keep trying to draw increasingly desperate comparisons to.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119550740#Comment_119550740

A neighbor of mine goes up north every July (well mainly his ould lad) for marches,he trains u15 in the local club

The notion you can't be a member of orange order and GAA is simply without credence,the notion you can be in orange order and not speak Irish is also without credence.....the only one,painting emselves out in any scenario is yous,and yous alone

It's weak political leadership,saying you can't do X,instead of empowering it's supporters to doX,is the problem with unionism,they are deliberately keeping yous downtrodden to sap confidence form community to prevent any progressive voices from speaking up....

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119550757#Comment_119550757

You ‘shoot the messenger personal attacks’ don’t work. I have never been any way involved in the orange order. A closed exclusive organisation does not attract me to join. Likewise I would not be attracted to join a closed organisation like the GAA (even if I could join without breaking the rules).

the comparisons are very clear Both organisations are:

rooted at the heart of communities

treasured by there communities

family orientated

membership has strong family traditions

looked upon with suspicion by the ‘other community’

exclusive and uninviting to those outside there traditional communities

significant membership of each organisation were murdered and indeed murdered others

got involved in sectarian politics

etc etc etc

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119550813#Comment_119550813

Not sure what you are saying. Are you claiming there numbers of people who hold dual membership of OO and GAA. I doubt it. It sounds a bit like the claims that there are lots of unionists in the GAA. We need to start dealing in realities

olestoepoke

The GAA should be doing everything it can to encourage the Protestant community to play. "Games for all" and "Where we belong" are two of the recent lines they pushed to promote an inclusive sport. Allowing the sunglasses and beret gang parade around a ground will only divide communities.

Start by banning all sectarian activities on GAA grounds, heavy fines for people who break the rule. People love Flags (Flegs) up there so start flying both communities flags wherever they can. Do whatever it takes to promote a game for all.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119552071#Comment_119552071

No....I'm saying, membership of each isn't exclusive.....your presenting situation yous can't be member of both,when if you want to deal in realities,that is simply a lie

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119552096#Comment_119552096

Very positive post. That would be transformative

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119552151#Comment_119552151

To be a member I need to sign up to be supportive of promoting a 32 county national identity. I can’t.

would you join an organisation that said you need to promote a Uk national identity across the British isles? I certainly wouldn’t expect you to

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119552164#Comment_119552164

This is a sidestep of yous knowingly posting lies,as regards to membership being allowed of both OO and GAA..

I have yet to see a single poster expect yous to join the GAA,so such a comparison and was paid to my door,is the actions of someone who is out of taught, desperately trying to distract from the outright lies,they have knowingly been posting

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119552202#Comment_119552202

I have no idea what you are saying

DonegalBay

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119552064#Comment_119552064

There are huge differences between the GAA and OO. First and foremost, the GAA is primarily about sport and I think most people can recognise that, games are played all the time, there is an entire forum dedicated to the GAA on here, its on TV all the time and discussed about etc, etc. It is just like any other sport in most respects, can you say the same for the OO? For sure the GAA has a political side, but thing is I would Imagine the majority of those who are involved in the GAA would not even be aware of the issue you are fixated on or I doubt they would even care. Ask any random person who comes to Ireland what Gaelic games are about and the answer will clearly be sport. Ask some random person what OO is about and it is a lot less clear, i doubt even most people in Ireland know what OO is about other than 12th July marching. So there are huge differences there.

I have never ever heard the 32 County thing ever mentioned or discussed in any shape of form within the GAA other than by those attacking the GAA. It is definitely not a requirement I have seen asked of anyone, though it could be buried somewhere in membership forms, a bit like those terms and conditions most people skip over, but i have never seen anyone excluded because of it. I think if anyone did try and enforce it, they would be likely told where to go.

And on the difference regards being exclusionary. Maybe lets put it like, the Tory party says you cannot join unless you support Liz Truss or the alternate Lis Truss is our new leader so do you want to join? Now maybe you hate Liz Truss so its irrelevant, but you still at least have the choice in one of those options.

votecounts

Posters who compare the GAA and OO need to have a good look at themselves, like those who compare an inlclusive event like St Patricks day parade to that of the bigoted 12th parades. I don't know about others but when I think of the OO, the closest org is the KKK.

Some people will whinge about anyhing Irish

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119557201#Comment_119557201

As always. It was republicans who introduced 12th etc into this thread as whataboutery.

there are huge differences and huge similarities in the two organisations.

your sanitizer views of stuff like st pats day, feile, etc are incredible.

likewise you comparison of OO and kkk. There are lots of people in my community who are the mirror image of you. They think that the GAA is the Ira at play. I certainly do not agree with that so I am not your mirror image and struggle to get inside your head as to why you compare OO and kkk.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119557728#Comment_119557728

Tbf,the oo stated raision detre is literally protestant asendency.......it runs,near parallel to the kkk and it's white supremacy

It's an reasonable comparison

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119557201#Comment_119557201

I wouldn't compare OO parades to the 17th March, but when you compare OO parades to events like the Bobby Storey funeral or the SF Easter commemoration, it can be difficult to tell the difference.

DonegalBay

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119561024#Comment_119561024

Except Downcow is comparing the OO to the GAA. The bone of contention being they are apparently being excluded because of a part of the GAA constitution that they do not agree with. Well technically they can also not participate in rugby, hockey, cycling, boxing, gymnastics etc, etc because they are if I am not mistaken, All Ireland 32 County Sports organisations and Downcow does not recognise a 32 County Ireland, so if Downcow is being consistent here, these sports are also exclusionary because they do not match their beliefs.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119561736#Comment_119561736

Nonsense.

I personally would not represent a 32 county international team (if I was so gifted) but a number of unionists do and I support their right to do so

i could though join a rugby club and yet be opposed to promoting a 32 county national identity. That’s the difference

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119561736#Comment_119561736

I wasn’t the one brought the OO whataboutery into this thread. So how about we agree not to mention the OO again

DonegalBay

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119562022#Comment_119562022

And you responded to the whataboutery on more than one occasion claiming the OO and GAA were very similar, now you just want to drop it like you never made those comparisons.

You are desperately trying to paint the GAA as some incredibly sectarian organisation when it is far from being that. Maybe it is more the case in the North, but I would argue that is more a reflection on NI society than on the GAA.

brokenangel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119557201#Comment_119557201

St Patrick Day in most places is a disgrace, loads of drunk people fighting etc. In Dublin you if you go in to watch the parade you try to get out as soon as possible before the mayhem starts. In the middle of the day you have people openly fighting with each other because they have so much alcohol onboard from first thing in the morning

Yes some of the parades in the North have issues but the majority pass off with no issues and are not the drunken mess that St Patrick Day is.

Have you ever gone to a parade in the North or just basing your entire opinion on what you seen on TV?

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119562357#Comment_119562357

Hardly surprising I responded to the whataboutery. Would you respond if someone described a part of your culture as kkk. I wouldn’t dare make such a claim.

for clarity. I am saying the GAA is sectarian. That does not mean everyone in it is very sectarian. Most people who have studied conflict would suggest that almost everyone in ni is on a sectarian continuum, ranging eg from choosing which pub to go to or which cultural event to attend or avoid, right through to murdering people because of their religion at the other extreme. The GAA contains all of those, but the key is that the organisation is not addressing any sectarian attitudes within and indeed remarkably allows clubs to celebrate those who have acted in the most extreme sectarian manner.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119562458#Comment_119562458

I know that post is in reply to votecounts but it reminded me of my only experience of st Patrick’s parade which I thought might make you guys smile but also give you a sense of how nationalist parades are perceived by some.

over 20 years ago I led an exclusively nationalist youth group who were very prominent in the district. The Council asked us if we would dress up and give out sweets as part of the local st Patrick’s parade. I dreaded it but wanted to support the young people with my presence. We turned up on the morning to select our fancy dress. I felt sick about being seen parading at such an event so when I saw a costume with full face cover it was a dream selection for me. Of course the fact it was St Patrick himself seemed irrelevant to me.

turned out we were at the front of the parade and I quickly realised I was the centre of attention 😳. Things to a worring turn when during the parade is was interviewed by 3 different media bbc, utv and radio. I was filled with dread at the thought of my community hearing me interviewed at the head of this nationalist parade. I rushed back to the office and phoned the bbc etc pleading that they would not use the interviews with me. Needless to say one of them did and I received numerous text messages and was often referred to as Patrick for some time afterwards🙂. Nb none of the texts were sinister - purely humorous.

maybe if you want to empathise, swap my situation with you doing King Billy at the front of an orange parade

brokenangel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119563258#Comment_119563258

Funny story :-)

I posted here before and the my experience of the orange order parades was nothing like what’s fired up on TV

Also St Patrick day is nothing but a disgrace for the majority of parades.

Seemingly it’s a day now to see how drunk you can get , anyway off topic, just wanted to point that out.

DonegalBay

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119563251#Comment_119563251

You want to see the end of the GAA commemorating IRA members, a very minor part of the GAA, fine. If it did happen it would have negligble impact on the GAA.

But if Nationalists were to demand the same from Unionists, that they stop celebrating an event that led directly to the persecution of Catholics for over 100 years and that they find offensive, what would Unionists have to say?

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119566787#Comment_119566787

This is where you are either misunderstanding or maliciously spinning.

I am not calling on nationalists to stop celebrating any event or person. I am calling on a sporting body, that claims it is open to all, to stop celebrating people who murdered many hundreds of innocent civilians. I would ask any body which claims to be open to all to never celebrate anyone who has murdered neighbours within living memory. No exceptions and no contradictions.

is that clear enough for you.

if sf, OO, etc want to honour people who have killed their neighbours then that’s up to them, but don’t be treating us with contempt and claiming to represent all

Fionn1952

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119567231#Comment_119567231

I would ask any body who claims to be open to all to never celebrate anyone who has murdered neighbours within living memory. No exceptions and no contradictions.

Well....there's your precious United Kingdom out the window. You lot regularly celebrate murderers well within living memory.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119567264#Comment_119567264

Now we have someone comparing a supposedly inclusive sport with a colonising nation. Now we are in the realms of the ridiculous, though it does demonstrate that some of you realise that the GAA has a problem, when you can’t find another sport to compare it to as a fig leaf.

And I don’t know any nation that doesn’t celebrate it past battles.

Fionn1952

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119568089#Comment_119568089

I'm just asking whether you actually hold to your own standards, Downcow.

I would ask any body who claims to be open to all to never celebrate anyone who has murdered neighbours within living memory. No exceptions and no contradictions.

Your quote doesn't mention sports, I'm just asking whether you're acknowledging that by your own standards, the United Kingdom isn't open to all? Given that you've said no exceptions and no contradictions, I just wanted to see if you REALLY held to, 'no exceptions, no contradictions', or if you'd managed to mentally compartmentalise enough to not even realise what you really meant was, 'themmuns can't claim to be open etc, but we're grand to because our murderers were state sponsored'.

See I'm actually fine with your stance about not celebrating murdering neighbours, I'd be totally fine if there was never a single Provo memorial again. You're clearly not.

Ironic that you started your originally quoted rant around the same time that thousands from your community and over forty of your bands were out for the annual Brian Robinson memorial parade yet I don't see your outraged posts about that anywhere?

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119568490#Comment_119568490

Yes I completely condemn the brian Robinson parade. A terrorist guilty of sectarian murder. If a sport I was involved in name ad ground or competition in his honour, I would be very vocal in my condemnation.

I am a norther ireland supporter and if Windsor park was renamed after brian Robinson then I would never darken its door again.

is that clear enough. Could you say the same about grounds named after Ira ?