Ideas for dodging the upcoming peak tariffs

the_amazing_raisin

I thought this might be a good thread to post ideas and advice for avoiding peak energy tariffs

It seems with the rollout of smart meters and all this talk of energy shortages that we're going to be getting higher electricity prices in the evening, probably between 5pm and 9pm, but maybe longer

Since that's when people seem to be doing a lot of energy intensive stuff (cooking, heating the house/water), it seems some changing habits are going to be needed

I was thinking people could post ideas of how to move their energy usage around and what impacts they've seen from it

Personally I've always thought the biggest domestic consumer of electricity is anything that produces heat. When you look at the power consumption of a TV versus an oven, its a few hundred watts versus 2-3kW

So I was thinking one idea would be to try and cook meals during the day. A lot of ovens have built in timers so you could prep a meal in the morning and set it to a low temp for the day and slow cook one or two meals

Microwaves are generally quite energy efficient compared to ovens. So batch cooking a few meals and reheating them should save a few euros each day

The other obvious candidates is the dishwasher, washing machine and dryer. Personally I think they should all be sold with delay timers at a minimum (most of them are now it seems) so they can be run during the night

Heating the house and water is a tricky one. If you're heating your house with a heat pump then it's generally better practice to keep it at a set temperature rather than running it for short bursts of time. You could build up some heat before 5pm and then turn it off for a few hours. If the house is well insulated then it should keep warm until the night time

Hot water is a bit more demanding, especially of you need to run baths for the kids in the evening. Only idea I have there is to shift your showers to the morning, or maybe get a bigger and we'll insulated hot water tank so you can heat it up before the peak and it'll keep warm for a while

slave1

Just refuse a Smart Meter

I got the 'smart' meter installed 6weeks back........out of habit I always set the washing machine/ dishwasher to do their magic between midnight& 8AM.......not for environmental reasons.../ just habit. Can't really see any difference in consumption between using them at different times........wonder is this 'smart' meter thing all a bit if a con really??

bullit_dodger

While not exactly curbing peak usage, one thing I've been looking at recently is replacing my tumble dryer with a heat pump one. The old dryer has given up the ghost after 10-12 years, so it's in need of replacing. In summer of course, the clothes line is the solution, but in winter it's hard to get loads dry.

Looking at the heat pump type dryers they use about 800watts verses 2kw of an "old skool" unit.

beachhead

Without providing any kind of evidence I would say that smart meters are not for the benefit of the consumer and posters on Boards seem to agree.I have a smart meter.I have not activated it for smart tariffs.I receive emails every 2 weeks prompting me to do so.Maybe Electric Ireland will reduce my bill to zero.The emails look promising-in a not believable way.But the sales pitch is over the top.

listermint

Have a smart meter a week, have absolutely zero idea if it's going to make any difference. But I'm also aware there are some absolute loopers on boards too.

beachhead

and not all are electric boom boom sum fancy themselves as technical head with kilowatts spouting everywhere

SD_DRACULA

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118016951#Comment_118016951

This is spot on actually I have one of them and I can see on my smart socket that it is constantly using 800w for about 2 hours that it needs to dry.

Heating water from electricity is not exactly efficient but during summer doesn't matter if you got solar. I'm running a combi boiler for the heating and instant hot water, gas is still way cheaper than elec and you only heat what you use, 0 waste but I hear they will be phasing out all gas boilers in the future anyway.

denismc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118016866#Comment_118016866

Why would you see different consumption at different times? An appliance uses the same amount of electricity regardless of when it is run!

The only change you might see is to your bills if have signed up to variable tariffs with your energy provider.

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118016966#Comment_118016966

In theory they can save you money, since they allow electricity companies to divide up the day into as many blocks as they want, down to a 30 mins interval

This can allow you to get closer to wholesale electricity rates which could save you a lot of money. This is of course dependant on being able to move your demand around to suit the grid prices, without meaningfully impacting your lifestyle. Or store the energy for later use

There's companies already offering to give the wholesale rate plus a markup to their customers, Octopus Agile tariff being an example in the UK

The truth, at leat in Ireland, is that almost all of the current smart tariffs are more expensive than the equivalent day/night rates. So until one of the players in the market does something innovative which benefits the consumer, we're going to be stuck with the higher tariffs

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118016823#Comment_118016823

True bit in the long run there'll be no running from them. All new builds will have smart meters and anyone hoping to get PV installed to get the FIT will need one too

And at some point ESB will just increase the network charges for the older meters so as to force people off of them. Or they'll update the regs to say they won't fix any connections that don't have smart meters

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118016951#Comment_118016951

We've had 2 of these, old Zanussi gave up after 5 years and wasn't worth fixing. New one is a Bosch and much better, and has delay timers so if there's a load ready during the day it can be set to run at night

They're definitely more energy officient overall. The main drawback is that they're somewhat slower, 2-3 hours for a full load but if you make sure they're full then its worth it

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118018332#Comment_118018332

We've got a heat pump and I did some cost comparisons to gas and it does work out cheaper overall. It'll be interesting to see how gas and electricity prices go over the winter

One nuisance factor with the current one I have is that it's not very intelligent. The most efficient way to run it is to keep the hot water "on" all day and not use a timer. This is mostly down to the PID controller in it, if it doesn't think it'll get the water hot enough in time then it'll use the immersion heater to boost it, and use a ton of energy in the process

Having the water on all the time does lead to some unecessary heating but it doesn't seem to have much impact

Ideally with a smarter system I'd be able to set the times I want the water to be hot and the heat pump would be tied into the smart meter and run at the cheapest times to ensure I had enough hot water when needed

irishgrover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118016991#Comment_118016991

you might think a little differently in a year of two when you realise how much extra you are paying for electricity at exactly the times that you need it :-)

I have a heat pump dryer for a few years at this stage and it saved an absolute fortune on bills. One of the best machines I’ve ever purchased from a cost savings point of view and it also is much easier on the clothes as they don’t run roaring hot, nor do they dump loads of heat to the room like a condenser dryer.

I don’t really have big on peak electricity demand though. All my lighting is LED. I don’t heat with electricity and my appliances are fairly efficient.

The dishwasher goes on with its delay timer to do the dishes between about 5 and 7am.

Washing machines and dishwashers also aren’t the energy hogs they once were. Most of them are extremely efficient with low water levels when doing the heated part of washes. The older ones used to lash in a lot of water and had no insulation so kept reheating it.

Things like LED lighting and modern TVs and IT equipment aren’t exactly big consumers off kWh.

cruizer101

Here is a chart of typical usage over a day to try give you an idea of what could be moved around.

It obviously an average based on a number of houses/over long time periods as if you were to look at a daily snapshot of one house you would have bigger/narrower spikes for cooking, washing etc. But gives an idea of what could be moved.

Lighting is big part of hump and once you have leds and are reasonably carful about turning lights off not much more you can do.

Washing/drying can be moved to night time, and cooking could be done during day or batch doing it at weekend. Other than that not too much you can do.

I already do that a bit and until one of them comes out with a better plan where significant savings can be made I won't be losing too much sleep over when I do what.

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118018514#Comment_118018514

I guess to be fair, at the moment the peak tariffs seem to be about 1c more than the day rate, that might drive an increase over the course of a year but for now it won't make much difference to each bill. Especially when compared to the difference being made by the endless price increases

But the main thing is that the trend is being set of having peak tariffs, and now that they're here they're only going to go up in price

Furze99

Time for carbon taxes on electricity too - since that's how we generate a lot.

oinkely

You just need to look at the unit rates for 'smart meter' plans vs the unit rates for 'standard' plans vs those for 'day/night' plans.

The unit rates for smart plans tend to be marginally to considerably more expensive than the other two, which seems ridiculous.

From Enregia website just now:

Standard plan - 15.68 cent per KWh standing charges 265.62

Feed in Tariff non smart plan 17.16 cent per KWh standing charges €265.62 (can't see what they pay you per KWh though)

Smart meter plan

17.17 cent day rate 12.27 cent night rate 17.99 cent peak rate standing charges €265.62

Day / Night plan

Day rate 17.34 Night rate 8.32 standing charges €317.93

Looking at the above the smart meter is going to cost you considerably more at night time and marginally more at peak time than the day/night meter. This will be offset by a marginally lower day rate and the higher standing charges.

We have a day / night meter and run everything that we can on night rate - dishwasher, washing machine, bread maker, dehumidifier to dry clothes if needed. Charge electronic devices and power banks and charge two electric cars. A smart meter would cost us a minimum of 10% more in our ESB bill than at present with our day/night meter so i won't be getting one any time soon.

yrreg0850

My only reason for agreeing to a smart meter is, to avoid estimated bills which are rarely under estimated.

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118019651#Comment_118019651

You could often submit your own readings to you supplier to fill in the gaps

bullit_dodger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118019651#Comment_118019651

I see/hear this a bit, but I'm often left confused by that estimated bills problem. If you overpay (probably by €10-20 or something) due to the estimation being higher than the reality, then when the next bill comes (which is read by a tech) you will be billed a smaller amount, so you end up paying exactly the same anyway over the 2 billing periods. No?

What am I missing?

idc

With electric ireland if you send a customer reading within 7 days of getting the bill they'll send a new bill with the totals combined, thus in winter the estimate is often wrong as i been using PV all summer and expect a summer estimate to also be wrong after winter!!

They even told me I could send estimates every month and then pay a monthly bill instead of normal bi-monthly bills!! (basically anytime you send an estimated reading they'll send you a bill!)

bullit_dodger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118020504#Comment_118020504

That sounds......pretty dumb on their part. It's not hard to have a estimation model which would account for solar, might need a year or two to "self tune" to the customers profile, but not at all hard. But the question still stands though - are people saying that they somehow are paying more in a 4 month period? (Assuming they are on a two monthly billing cycle)

Estimates might be "off", but they'll rebalance at the next "offical" reading and you shouldn't be paying more/less by a single cent.

idc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118020573#Comment_118020573

only had PV a year so maybe their estimates will improve over time. But unless you somehow never give a estimate or let a meter reader do an official reading then it won't rebalance. If rates change then you could in fact end up paying more or less than you should of.

Energia send an email to submit a reading. 2 minutes of my time and the bill is accurate

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118018410#Comment_118018410

Apologies, I worded that badly. Yep, I meant 'cost' as opposed to 'consumption'.....mea culpa. Anyhow, still I make the same point....appx. 3/4 cents is the difference between putting on dishwasher ( @ 55 ddegree wash cycle) in middle of afternoon v middle of night. I'm not going to be looking at the new bmw7 series with all my 'savings'

listermint

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118021098#Comment_118021098

I'd pay forty a year to not have to do that . That sounds like just more pain in the whole.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118021207#Comment_118021207

If 2 minutes every few months is a problem for you. I wonder how you deal with life😱

listermint

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118021326#Comment_118021326

I've better things to be doing frankly.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118021341#Comment_118021341

I can see that. It would definitely eat into the time you spend here. Can't be having that now can we😱

listermint

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118021508#Comment_118021508

I guess some folks like reading emails and opening meter boxes. Not my bag tbh.

antoinolachtnai

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118018675#Comment_118018675

No carbon tax on electricity as such. The carbon pricing for electricity is in the form of the EU emissions trading system allowances. The generator has to buy allowances at auction for every tonne of CO2 emitted.

yrreg0850

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118020210#Comment_118020210

There are two problems with estimated bills.

1 If the estimated bill is near the end of your contract period and you wish to switch and you have been overestimated .

2 . Electric Ireland do not give you any notice of pending bills and, if you try enter reading before estimated bill is issued, it is rejected.

Energia do give a number of days notice.

SlitDrip

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118021515#Comment_118021515

Your bag is posting on boards 14 hours a day 🤣

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118021207#Comment_118021207

I hope you're paid €200 an hour because by your reckoning that's what your time is worth 😉

bullit_dodger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118023396#Comment_118023396

Yeah.....ok, I kinda see what your saying, but I'm not sure how a person would be "out of pocket" though. Ultimately there's a number on the dial, and for some bills that number is estimated, and then 3 (or is it 4?) times a year a tech comes out from ESB networks and does an official reading. It's every other bill, at least with SSE. Estimated-actual-estimated-actual- etc.

So if you over (or under) pay on the estimated bill, your next bill based off the official number will rebalance. When you move providers, isnt there a "closing bill" which sees you right? Same number on the dial then given to new provider, so you can't really hide units (or double pay)

Yeah, its a pain in the hoop going to the meter, but even if you don't do it - just not seeing how anyone can be out of pocket here? Should all balance out in the wash.

paulbok

No worse than the poxy level pay bills.

Grr I hate them, will avoid them in the future, and not just because I'll have pv shortly.

I put 20 a week into my account and don't have a bill at the end of 2 months.

The meter is literally just outside my door. I pass it several times a day.

For those of you who find it problematic, it must be at the end of the garden locked in the shed to which you need to find the key. 🤣

afatbollix

I think you're missing the point. Those with a smart meter don't even have to look at it anymore.

(Just got updated to a smart meter, I'm on an old tariff the only difference is that they get a reading every day)

Not sure why you wouldn't want one tbh. It's not like they force you onto a bad tariff.

This thread is going off-topic, You won't have to worry about peak load In Ireland, They ask factories and data centres to run on generators if they get to that stage.

But I will be looking at getting a battery in the future so I can fill up in the summer on solar and winter the overnight lower tariff.

Wheety

Only drink tea/coffee in the early hours of the morning

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118024464#Comment_118024464

Well asking data centres to run off generators isn't a very sustainable solution and is going to turn off investors (which we're very much dependant on still)

So the grid is going to need to support them in the long run. This might be using batteries for short term peaks, but the simple fact is that peak tariffs exist now, and they're only going to get higher with time

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118024506#Comment_118024506

Work at nights, sleep during the day 😂

I did consider seeing how much would be saved by boiling a kettle full of water just before 5pm and loading up a thermos to last until 7pm

Probably about 5c a year

idc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118024464#Comment_118024464

Are on a standard 24 hour tariff? If thats the case it makes no difference you can still be on the 24 hour tariff. Problem is people on day/night tariffs can't move to a smart meter without being forced onto a different tariff as no supplier is offering the existing night rate for smart meters.

Stop using electricity. It's the only solution.

sudocremegg

I generally cook around 3-4pm anyway. I think biggest for me is the likes of the dishwasher and washer/dryer.

They're quite noisy and it's not fair to be running them in apartment blocks, i try be considerate. Not to mention they're a fire hazard at night.

Out of curiosity I wonder how much the likes of an electric shower uses? Thankfully no need to use heating yet. Currently have all my windows open at a comfortable temp.

bullit_dodger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118024873#Comment_118024873

I can answer that one for you. Your typical electric shower (lets take a Triton T90) has two settings. Running it at "1 bar" uses about 5Kw, and 2 bars (9Kw). With a unit of leccie at ~20 cents, your 12 minute shower at 2 bars = (12/60) x 9 x 0.20 = 36 Cents. Yeah, it rocks up pretty fast at 9KwHr!

Good of you to be neighbourly for others in the apt block, but not sure I agree with you about the "they're a fire hazard". Sure, like all electrical appliances, one could conceivably catch fire, but you don't worry about your fridge do you? Apparently that is one of the "Top5" appliances which do catch fire. Since you don't plug that out every night out of worry and leave it in 24x7, your probably over worrying about your dish washer. Still, not wanting to wake the neighbors is a good reason in itself.....

rainbowtrout

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118023396#Comment_118023396

I don't see what the problem is here. Electric Ireland issue bills every two months. My bill comes the first week on the odd months, so I submit a reading a couple of days before the bill is due. Doesn't cause me any problems.

rainbowtrout

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118024873#Comment_118024873

An electric shower is typically 8.5-9 kW. So 10 minutes in the shower will typically be somewhere between 1-1.5 kw.

Electric showers are hungry for units alright

paulbok

Go visiting between 5-7pm.