Taxed to the hilt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118245018#Comment_118245018

Wanderer78:

We can run the country by endless government borrowing.

Also Wanderer78:

Tax the rich!

Why the need to tax anyone based on your theory of endless borrowing? Why did you pick the rich to be taxed? You jelly of people who made more of a success of themselves than you can?

McGiver

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118233981#Comment_118233981

These are clichés that resonate well in Ireland but they are a myth.

CGT is indeed very high I'd change this immediately. It discourages investment and fuels property bubbles.

But CGT is NOT calculated in overall tax burden for international comparisons, while VAT indeed is. All "hidden tax levies" are negligible in effect in terms assessing average tax burden and comparing countries.

The notion of Irish HIGH taxes is... a myth. They are low to the average, even if I include "hidden duties".

Please show me a comprehensive analysis of average tax burden for an average/median person including income taxes, social insurance, compulsory medical insurance and VAT between European countries.

I made the analysis based on Institut Molinari paper and the conclusion is clear.

You can start here and take it from there:

https://www.institutmolinari.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/17/2019/07/tax_burden_EU_2019.pdf

Low earners pay no tax here. The 40% higher rate is not high, it's much higher in France, Belgium, Scandinavia etc.

Examples:

55k gross here gives you the same net salary as

56k gross in Spain

58k gross in Sweden

59k gross in Denmark

61k gross in France

62k gross in Austria

63k gross in Netherlands

63k gross in Germany

64k gross in Finland

64k gross in Italy

69k gross in Portugal

70k gross in Belgium

Assuming similar tax credits and personal situation. And I'm not counting much higher Employer's social security payments in virtually all EU countries. They are amongst the lowest here hence social system especially pensions is very weak here (2nd lowest state pension in OECD).

As I said cost of living is high here but it ain't taxes.

Sam Russell

^^^ What he said.

The cost of living is high in Ireland because the cost of living is high. As it is in Sweden, Denmark, and many other countries. Wages have to be high because of the high cost of living, and those wages are passed on causing higher prices.

There is a custom of people/voters being unwilling to pay for things that are provided by the Gov. Bin charges were opposed by 'the people' and were abandoned (for a while). Everyone now pays them.

Water charges were opposed 'by the people' and the project was abandoned - but the water leaks require huge investment. A pipeline to provide water to Dublin requires huge investment. The sewage system in Ireland is in need of huge investment, but lumpy water is Ok as long as you do not swim in it, and you get used to the smell. Who is going to pay for all these required investments?

Of course if we had the revenue from a fair and transparent water charge system, the Irish Water might be able to invest and improve our water and sewerage systems. It works for gas and electricity - the user pays based on the meter, so why not water?

It is a very populist argument to say taxes are too high and should be lower, and that services are too scant and should be improved. Who could argue against that? We just need to borrow to fill the gap.

The only problem with borrowing to fill the gap, is that the lenders will want their money back.

McGiver

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118248386#Comment_118248386

The reality is that the Irish government and the Irish electorate are cheapskates, tight-purses, however you name it.

It's impossible to build European grade infrastructure, health care or public services with such LOW taxes as they are here.

The point is that by millions paying little bit more tax the government gets money to invest in infrastructure, services etc. Most European countries concluded, on population level, that everyone paying little bit more pays off in the end by getting infra and services. Ireland has not reached that conclusion yet and on the contrary the population is opposed to this idea, this myth of high taxes only exacerbates the notion. This thread demonstrates that too.

The higher 40% doesn't have to change much to accomplish this. But there should be more bands especially on the lower side. So it's not about tax the rich, but tax everyone. I could imagine 10%, 20%, 30% and 40% tax bands to start with. 0%, 20% and 40% is not a good system.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118233257#Comment_118233257

The overall level of taxation is all taxes I assume, not just taxes on labour.

McGiver

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118249946#Comment_118249946

Overall level of taxation is not a term that is used in academia, OECD etc. It's extremely challenging to calculate. It is basically not done for international comparisons for that reason. Hence, it's really pointless to discuss that, because you can't demonstrate, calculate and compare that between countries.

Income tax, mandatory social & medical insurance contributions and estimated VAT effect it the best data that's used for tax burden comparisons. That's the best method. And in that method Ireland is low-average at worst.

For example:

The Tax Burden on Global Workers - A Comparative Index - First Edition, 2021 - Institut économique Molinari (institutmolinari.org)

Note: I've minor in Economics, just FYI.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118249988#Comment_118249988

I’m a Nobel prize winner in economics. So much for credentialism on the internet

I haven’t fully looked at that but these surveys on tax that show a low tax burden in Ireland relative to income tend to measure not just personal tax but the tax the company pays (ie company prsi or equivalent). The tax wedge

Which is valid in a sense but isn’t reflected in the persons take home pay relative to earnings.

And Ireland has a very high marginal rate at up to 50%. That really can’t be hidden particularly when people get bonuses. I’ve seen European immigrants here shocked at the take home after a bonus. It’s “balanced” by low taxes on lower income and high tax credits, to rebalance that to European standards we would increase taxes on lower income groups and maybe add a third tier.

McGiver

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118249866#Comment_118249866

Exactly, very high labour costs here -> higher overall price level -> higher labour costs. Plus add quite high VAT to it, that only exacerbates it.

The government here balances it by very LOW social employers' as well as employees' contributions (taxes), to keep the labour costs in check else they'd be not competitive at all.

As a blow-in, I find the "water charges" thing so bizarre - you pay for water in the whole EU, this has been in place in Europe for several decades, I'd guess since after the WW2 including the Eastern block. It's so bizarre, it's like saying electricity or gas supply should be free. You have to pay what you consume, it's an essential service but must be paid per unit of consumption just like the electricity. Parodixically, free water for all regardless of consumption is totally SOCIALIST, that even Socialist Eastern Block countries didn't have this in place 😎

And yes "Taxes are too high" in Irish context is a populist argument, nothing else.

If you want a functioning civilised society with a functioning EU-grade infrastructure and public services everyone needs to pay income taxes. It's not about the rich, the "squeezed in the middle", the poor - but everyone. Unless you want to end up in a PIIGS situation again by borrowing to the point of bankruptcy. One more option is crappy infra and public services - anyone wants that?

Btw - Irish Gov Debt:GNI ratio is 110% which is alarmingly high.

McGiver

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118250052#Comment_118250052

Should I show you my degree? Why would I lie? This is not a fair argument.

I mentioned it because I've a degree in economics, understand these concepts, am interested in this topic and regularly read papers on the topic and run my analyses.

Better stay on topic and present data to support your notions. So far no actual data with international comparison.

McGiver

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118250052#Comment_118250052

Marginal tax rate you mentioned is quite irrelevant without internal comparison for the same target group etc.

Irish taxes are simply not high in any sense, however you look at it.

Good analysis here:

Comparing Irish Income Taxation Rates with other EU Member States | Public Policy

Ireland is demonstrably on the lower-average to lower end in all target groups. In line with my pervious posts.

At average incomes and below, the Irish income tax burden is relatively low when compared to other EU Member States (MS)

...

Notwithstanding the lower income tax burden in Ireland relative to other EU MS, the OECD has highlighted that the Irish tax and welfare system is the most progressive and redistributive in offsetting market income inequalities (i.e. earnings from employment and self-employment, rents and investment incomes) (OECD, 2020)

Murph85

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118250064#Comment_118250064

its an appalling run country and very juvenile. There shouldnt be water charges, because water falls free, from the sky... Nobody should pay any meaningful tax, except the "elite" on 80k etc plus... How convenient that the massive majority of voters, want someone else to pay...

Its a joke, but I would scrap LPT , can be financed by not hiking welfare for a year or two... and of course it can be financed by economic growth alone... The biggest winners, will be those already robbed on marginal tax rates. The rest pay as good as nothing on their properties any way... Its a populist political move across the board and will reward those, hammered the most...

start hiking motor tax rates too and substantially. This can be used to further reduce the marginal rate of tax...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118250110#Comment_118250110

I was talking about marginal taxation for a reason. It’s high and it comes in at a low multiple of the average income, see

https://taxfoundation.org/personal-income-tax-rates-europe/

Ireland’s 48% marginal tax comes in at 1.5 times average income. Germany’s 47.5% tax comes in at 5.4 times average income ie 282,000. in terms of the marginal rate and where it comes in Ireland is up there with the most taxed countries

And in fact because of how USC is calculated the average wage (or slightly above) is taxed about 46%. That used to be 48% so we have the highest rate at near the lowest wage at one stage.

The marginal is high but the tax paid by lower earners is low, and overall tax is average, in fact that’s what your last bold point says - Ireland has a highly distributionary tax system

cnocbui

Now add the cost of owning a car, where motoring taxes and fees makes up 10% of total government revenues.

"...Government which charge the highest taxes and driving fees in the EU....Ireland tops the league for the cost of taxing and insuring a car, and is second only to Holland for the cost of buying a new car."

https://www.independent.ie/life/motoring/car-costs-in-ireland-are-close-to-highest-in-europe-survey-reveals-26223392.html

This is not a small deal They usually say car ownership is the second highest lifetime expenditure after housing. I suspect it is probably higher in this country.

Might as well chuck in tertiary education fees as well. And while we are there, by at least one metric, Ireland has the second highest childcare costs in the EU, which might be explained by it having the lowest expenditure in the EU on provision of pre-school services.

The cost of living is high because the government make it so - deliberately. It doesn't count as taxation, which is intentional, not least because of the prohibition on state support for industries in the EU, but it's there in spades. The example of the covert subsidisation of the Pharmaceuticals industry I mentioned is just one. Can you explain to me the logic behind legislation that dictates that a brand name drug can be sold over the counter, but that a generic version of the same drug can't, and that the on-costs of obtaining that same drug that retails in the Uk for €4.50 amount to €57 on top of that?

Ireland's 'cute' to the gills public sector has perfected the end run around EU legislation to subsidise industries at the expense of the consumer. VRT blatantly replacing import duty and protecting the local sellers from UK imports is probably the standout. Common market my arse.

What happens when you make car insurance compulsory, with no regulation of the fees the industry can charge while having a legal system with no limit on payouts?

Unfortunately it has been expunged from the internet, but years ago you could find an Irish newspaper article, from around 2004?, that claimed that the Irish vehicle insurance industry made more profit than the combined total profit of the UK car insurance industry.

The net effect of using legislation configured to provide industry subsidies is the same as if the government increased income tax and then handed out massive subsidies directly to all of it's pet industries.

The government seems particularly fond of the insurance, legal and banking industries. The Irish government deliberately reduced competion by driving out several foreign banks, namely Rabo and Ulster bank.

And I haven't even got to CGT and CAT yet.

cnocbui

Speaking of taxes and how the government does a lot of it by shifting or inducing costs...

"The majority of the new Climate Action Plan's costs will fall to individuals, households and the private sector, not the State, the coalition leaders have confirmed.

The €125 billion plan"

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/climate-action-plan-costs-to-largely-fall-on-households-and-private-sector-1209201.html

When this was first announced, the first thing I wondered was how many additional public sector workers, the sector would tell the government needed to be employed to enact and oversee the plan, because there isn't a hope in hell of a magical productivity transformation in that sector which would see them adding any of that to their plates. Of course that additional staffing cost, which by it's nature is always shoulderd by the taxpayer, will be in addition to that €125 billion.

fliball123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118249388#Comment_118249388

fliball123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118249388#Comment_118249388

How does this compare when all income taxes (PAYE, USC and PRSI) is included and how is the return for the tax payer for paying this tax? How good is Ireland's Public services in comparison.

Geuze

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118249988#Comment_118249988

It is false that the overall level of tax is not calculated or compared by Eurostat / OECD / IMF, etc.

It is a term used.

Here you go:

https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/document/download/e1cd9cea-c7de-43b3-9f25-b5bdd410244e_en

https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/taxation-1/economic-analysis-taxation/taxation-trends-european-union_en

https://www.oecd.org/tax/revenue-statistics-ireland.pdf

Geuze

The very high price level here is not due purely to high wages.

Wages are high, yes, but not very high.

Our consumer price level is 138.3 compared to EU = 100, that is the price level for AIC.

See here:

https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php?title=GDP_per_capita,_consumption_per_capita_and_price_level_indices#Price_levels_in_Europe

Our labour costs are high, yes, but they are 10th in EU, and are just at the eurozone average.

https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php?title=Wages_and_labour_costs

Geuze

HerrKuehn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118250110#Comment_118250110

For an individual it doesn't really matter what the average tax take is. In Ireland we have a high marginal rate kicking in early. It means that in comparison to somewhere like Germany, when you hit around 120k or so, the tax payable is around the same. Lower paid, say 20k or so would pay far more in Germany. I think you also need to compare service provided, which in Ireland are terrible, we need to pay for dental, health insurance, medications, doctors visits. The state pension system is one size fits all with your previous earnings not taken into account.

JimmyVik

I just got paid for the month of November.

I did loads of overtime, busted my gut for it. I got paid over €1000 for the overtime. less than €500 went into my bank account. You are welcome revenue.

Dont anyone try to tell me that this is a low tax economy.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118326023#Comment_118326023

Where else would someone on your income take home more of that at their marginal rate, precisely? Remember to include social insurance as most people who do these comparisons grab what looks like a low income tax rate and ignores a 10+% social insurance charge.

And how much would their property tax (which can apply to renters, e.g. in the UK), local taxes (if they exist), water charges etc be?

JimmyVik

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118327308#Comment_118327308

Of the places I have worked and paid tax in over the years. France, UK, US, Germany, Australia. Im sure there are plenty more but i havent paid tax in any other country. But all the ones i have paid tax in its a lot better than here for sure. Over 50% tax on my overtime is very hard to swallow.

I dont pay property tax myself, but I can tell you you get a hell of a lot more for your taxes in other countries too. Stealth taxes in Ireland are worse than anywhere else too. But feel free to do a break down of the taxes paid in each of those countries if you dont believe me.

L1011

Without knowing your exact income, which I don't expect you to state, I can't do a specific tear down. But it's highly unlikely that the total tax take was actually lower in France, Germany or the UK - with hefty social insurance and property / residence taxation. Or the US when you pay for health insurance

JimmyVik

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118331562#Comment_118331562

I can tell you that having worked in all of those countries and paid tax them, Ireland is indeed the worst for tax. Its also the worst for cost of living, the worst for what you get for taxes, the worst for stealth taxes and dont get me started on the likes of VRT and VAT.

This country sucks money out of you from all angles with taxes in various hidden and not so hidden forms.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118331850#Comment_118331850

And I can tell you that the actual hard figures don't agree with you in any of those cases.

JimmyVik

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118331861#Comment_118331861

Thats just not true.

Show us these hard figures you have then?

McGiver

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118250193#Comment_118250193

Marginal tax is a bit academic, it doesn't tell an average person much and it's pretty bad at comparing countries because income tax on its own is only one of main elements of overall taxation in the EU.

Social insurance is not included, medical insurance is not included.

Social insurance is low here in EU terms and there's no mandatory medical insurance.

Other EU countries have much higher social insurance and most have mandatory medical insurance. These are types of taxes or are considered as such in the EU. Also, you should use an average

If you add it all together Irish tax burden is belie average.

"High taxes" myth collapses at even a mild scrutiny. Maybe we should define what is high and for whom they are high.

We should take average or median salary in the country and compare the tax burden between the countries. High would be in the 1st quartile in the EU in my book. Ireland isn't clearly there, it's in the 4th quartile in fact.

McGiver

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118326023#Comment_118326023

Populist cliché. Cherry picking as well.

Average Joe in Ireland pays much more less income tax + social insurance + medical insurance + VAT than average Jean in Belgium or average Johann in Germany. And that's the point 😎

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118344318#Comment_118344318

taking the median hides the high tax rate which comes in at just higher than the median. I’ve said that we have too low a rate under the median and too high above it, compare to Denmark.

touts

If you are working then wait until you see the tax bill Sinn Fein will hit you with. They have made so many "you can have everything you want and someone else will pay" promises the only way they can pay for it is to make anyone with a job fall into the "someone else" category.

McGiver

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118325627#Comment_118325627

Yep this all quite true. But how is 120k salary relevant? What's the overall effect on population level? People with 120k wage are not a relevant group in macro numbers.

If you take median salary the overall tax burden is on the lower end here vs EU countries. Incomes around the median constitute quite a significant group.

As I said 55k gross here gives the same net than 63k gross in Germany. Like for like person, same/similar tax credits etc.

The extra 8k collected for a relatively slightly above average wage (55k/63k) in Germany makes a huge difference in government expenditure options if you consider the population level... The same goes for all low income groups where there's no tax collected here whereas there's tax collected in Germany.

What you get back for your taxes here vs Germany is for a new thread altogether. I agree the bang for the buck is pretty bad here. Saying that, if you take overall gov tax (incl social contr.) take from all income quartiles (or deciles), it is quite low here, so no wonder Irish gov can't do magic with that amount of money and do EU grade infrastructure projects or decent pensions etc.

The Irish budget is pretty lean...

2021 Denmark expenditure - 167 billion

2021 Irish expenditure - 87 billion

Edit: we're talking about income taxation... Wealth taxation is a bit different topic.

Geuze

It is true that effective direct tax on median earnings here are lower than in many other EU countries.

However, facing a 48.5% marginal tax rate on below average earnings is not typical.

McGiver

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118344533#Comment_118344533

Yup and Denmark manages to create 50-100% higher gov expenditure with LESS deficit.

Danish tax rates:

Minimum 12%

Municipal 25%

Labour 8%

Top bracket 15%

Also, these are combined but I believe there's a cap.

The 0-20-40 here is a terrible system. And course everything centralised too, outside of the Pale are beggars...

15-30-45 or something would make more sense but no gov here would do it i.e. increase taxes for the lower income bracket...

JimmyVik

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118344333#Comment_118344333

Expect that you are totally wrong.

I have given several coiuntries above that I hqave actually worked and paid tax in where i paid far higher tax then in Ireland. I also mentioned VAT, stealth taxes and VRT.

The plain truth is that once you are in the high tax bracket (which it doesnt take much to get into) then anything else you earn (overtine, second job, bonus, BIK) you will be taxed to death on, far more than in any other country.

Out of any country i have paid tax in, Ireland is also the one where you get less for it too.

We are squeezed to death here. The only possible way anyone could say we are in a low tax economy is if you are on a low salary.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118350113#Comment_118350113

Except your alleged personal experience simply doesn't actually work in reality. Particularly as you are trying to make claims about marginal rate and its impact on overtime and so on, so we're not looking at allowances etc

Lets take a 50k salary. In Ireland you have 40% income tax, 4.5% USC and 4% USC for 48.5%.

For Germany its ~40% income tax, 9.35% pension tax, 7.3% health insurance, 1.5% unemployment insurance and an over 1% care tax that varies by lander - and before January 2021, 5.5% solidarity tax So your marginal rate would have been 60%, or over 65% before this year.

For France you'd have 30% income tax, but over 20% in assorted social insurance payments (pension, unemployment, health and various surcharges on these) for a marginal rate of ~52%

Both those countries have further local taxation (variously property, TV licences that apply to radios and cars etc) but I'm just looking at your inaccurate claims about direct income tax here

JimmyVik

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118350574#Comment_118350574

Not earning 50K, but that is my experience that I pay the highest rate of tax in Ireland than anywhere I have lived before. We get taxed more in Ireland than those countries. We also pay higher VAT and we also pay more stealth taxes and get less for them and we also pay VRT. Oh, and dont forget we pay VAT on VRT too. A tax on a tax ffs.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118350619#Comment_118350619

Your experience must be based on some exceptionally edge case earnings that were somehow precisely in each countries taxation sweet spot.

Because for normal people, that just isn't the case.

And if you think VRT is high, I invite you to take a look at the rates of the equivalent tax in the Netherlands and Denmark!

JimmyVik

What are we doing now. Picking one or two countries where one tax is higher than in Ireland? Thats weak tbh :)

growleaves

I pay taxes and other people are on welfare 😟

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118350684#Comment_118350684

You ignored my country selection when it using specific countries you claimed to have paid less tax in, to show that unless you had very specific edge-case earnings, that isn't the case.

The point in general is that Ireland is not high tax and people who insist it is are wrong.

Poor services for what we pay is a different point entirely; but we are not paying for Germany/Scandinvian/French/even UK local level services anyway.

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118350619#Comment_118350619

VAT is not charged on VRT.

VAT is charged on the invoice price. VRT is charged as a percentage of the OMP (on the market price).

Cyrus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118350967#Comment_118350967

Unless i am wrong, on a new car, vat is charged on the vrt inclusive price. so you are paying vat on vrt.

monseiur

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118036975#Comment_118036975

But the tragedy is Sam we have the same. We have an abundance of natural gas off our coast which we handed over to the private sector. Explorations carried out by Providence Resources in the Barrymore oil well off the Cork coast estimated a production of 1.7 billon barrels of oil. Prelimenary explorations off the coast especially the north, west and south have shown potential oil reserves double North Sea Oil. But alas, thanks to pressure from the delusional Greens and others like the climate advisory council, the Irish goverment announced back in September 2019 that all oil exploration off the coast of Ireland is to be phased out. We're living on borrowed money yet we are sitting on a gold mine and refuse to touch it.......imagine if the Chinese had such a natural resource on their doorstep !

McGiver

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118348142#Comment_118348142

Marginal tax rate is an excellent academic exercise and abstract concept largely irrelevant to the average Joe...

As I see it, this value is thrown around in Irish discourse to "prove" Irish tax burden is high and perpetuate the myth. So the average Joes believe it that income tax burden is high here on population level, in macro numbers, and is opposed to increase/reform of Irish tax system.

Turkeys voting for Xmas. ...

I've provided numerous decent studies including from the EU showing that Irish tax burden (on income) is overall (for vast majority of the) is below EU averagw. That by definition is not "high taxes".

What does this marginal tax rate value say to an average Joe? Nothing.

How is the value relevant for the overall government tax take and expenditure options? Not much.

It's an academic synthetic indicator.

What I do agree with you @Geuze is that the structure of the income tax is off here... I'd propose 15-30-45 or something which would be similar to other EU countries that don't have a flat rate (most don't) but can't see that happening here 😎

McGiver

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118350574#Comment_118350574

Thanks finally some reality check.

Also to note that 50k isn't taxed 40% here, only the excess over I think 45k, below that is 20%.

In Germany at 50k you're taxed 60% overall including medical, as you said.

McGiver

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118350634#Comment_118350634

Yup and that's before we look at the Dutch motor tax. Roughly 3 times more for polluting cars, esp diesel, like for like.

The government here are cowards to go for a similar system that encourages switch to electric or less polluting cars. Totally car lobby influenced.

McGiver

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118350113#Comment_118350113

Saying that others are wrong is no evidence.

Show us the evidence. Numbers, data, comparison between countries with actual examples for low, average and above average incomes.

I worked and lived in several countries in the EU, plus have friends in others, plus was looking at jobs in others so I ran tax calculators as part of the job research. So I can say I know them situation very well. What you're saying is simply false.

Overall tax burden Ireland is amongst the lowest in the EU.

Only flat tax countries like Estonia would be lower taxed, or Cyprus or Malta which are micro tax havens.

Ireland gross 48000 - 36193 net

Germany gross 48000 - 33801 net

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118351228#Comment_118351228

That not a drop of oil has ever come out of these supposed reserves should tell you all you need to know about how viable they actually are.

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118351093#Comment_118351093

Sorry, but you are wrong.

From the revenue Tax manual.

https://www.revenue.ie/en/tax-professionals/tdm/value-added-tax/part03-taxable-transactions-goods-ica-services/Goods/goods-transactions-motor-vehicles.pdf

4.1 Value-Added Tax (VAT) charges on new vehicles bought and sold by an authorised motor dealer

In general, VAT is due (at the standard rate) on the full purchase price received by a dealer for any vehicle. However, in the sale of an unregistered vehicle by an authorised dealer, Revenue will accept that the portion of the purchase price that represents the VRT liability is paid by the dealer in the name and on the account of the purchaser; i.e., the customer pays the VRT, and the dealer simply administers the payment from the money handed to him or her. Accordingly, the VAT liability on the sale of a new vehicle by an authorised motor dealer is generally calculated on the VRT-exclusive amount received from the customer. (This also applies in the case of a second-hand or used vehicle brought into the State by an authorised dealer, and sold by him or her prior to being registered in Ireland). In the case of the sale of a registered vehicle, a VAT liability arises on the full VRT-inclusive amount received, and no adjustment is allowed.

The VAT is paid be the customer before VRT, which is then paid after purchasing by the customer. This is a subtle difference, but is important. It is a registration tax, not a purchase tax. If you import a car here that is subject to VAT and VRT, the VAT is charged on the invoice price (plus shipping plus import duty, if that applies). The VRT is calculated by a completely different system based on the open market value in Ireland. So you could buy a bargain for €5,000, but it has a value in Ireland of €20,000. Vat is calculated on €5k, but VRT is calculated on OMP of €20,000.

[Actually, the calculation of VRT is based on the original new price - discounted for age, condition, and mileage - or, well, sort of].

[For example, they do not list Porsche cars at all - each is individually valued, as are most high powered expensive models].