Should we in Ireland be concerned about Jihad?

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118477175#Comment_118477175

Guantanamo Bay had to be the single best recruiting base for Isis / Al-Qaeda et all. Repeating that will most likely have the same results. I think that a start might be made even at this late stage to become much more selective on who we allow into the Country. For a lot of EU country's, its all ready too late, Islam has become established, and as their Nrs increase , so will their influence. Death of Democracy, a kind of suicide if you like.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118478925#Comment_118478925

Ahh well, I'd say that past events have caused enough momentum for them to continue without any further force being applied.

You've been to the M.East, and are familiar with the way many people think there. I've been involved in conversations where people referenced the crusades, not as a historical reference, but as a justification for "resistance" to westerners. Admittedly, these were very watered down conversations, but I've seen translated narratives which weren't watered down, listing a host of offenses throughout history to justify their beliefs, and promoting those beliefs to others. As with many poor/underdeveloped regions, people hold on to their grudges, and pass them on to the next generation.

And yes, I agree completely. We should be very careful of increasing the general populations of Muslims in Europe. As populations increase, the demand for Islamic cultural norms are enforced on all Muslims in that region, and later, extended to non-Muslims.

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118473900#Comment_118473900

Yes. she will have a trial, as per western ( and not sharia ) law. If found guilty she will be sentenced according to Irish Law. The worrying thing about this is under Irish Law, can she be found guilty? Jihadism was not around when Irish Laws were being drafted, but maybe by now it has been updated to reflect the changing world we live in.

jmreire

I Blame Sheeple

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118478898#Comment_118478898

But you said Europeans should treat this as a war and in war, people die. Enemy combatants get killed. Be it by lethal injection 5 years after the conflict or by artillery 5 minutes into the battle, they will still die so how is a humane execution not a 'down the middle' reaction? It's certainly not extreme.

I think tying up your prisoners in a car then firing an RPG into it is extreme.. Or molding plastic explosives to a line of prisoners necks and detonating it in the hopes of decapitating them? This is what we're dealing with so why would we swing back with oven mitts on?

I think anybody fighting that section of religious extremism should operate under a general rule of thumb; no prisoners regardless of age or gender. Treat others how you expect to be treated is something these particular terrorists should have learned before they made snuff films for the victim's families to watch. I believe my ideas will help to stop inciting generations of Muslims to want to fight. The more public trials and year long debacles over terrorists in custody just gives recruiters more ammunition.

jmreire

No, the last thing we want is to become Monsters exactly like the Jihadi's..They are still milking the Crusades for their propaganda, never mind Guantanamo. Either leave them to their fate in Syria / Iraq etc. or bring them back to their home Country's and try them their existing laws. This has happened already in Germany where some jihadi's are imprisoned, and done under existing German law too. I just hope that Irish law will be up to the task....as far as I know, her legal team has already applied for all charges to be dismissed, however that will go?

I Blame Sheeple

I'm probably a minority but I genuinely think the countries who wage war in these parts of the world should either go balls to the wall and actually conquer the place or just get out now. They've already caused irreparable damage and fighting the war with a proxy or a private military company isn't the answer. I also genuinely believe we're way past being branded as monsters. We're all monsters. Them and us. We bomb their children, they bomb ours. That already makes us as bad as them so why try and fight with one foot on the mat?

Edit: Even as I read that back I can see how hopeless my position is. It will never end, Islamic extremism or super powers fighting it because it keeps countries economies afloat.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118480241#Comment_118480241

Well she has been charged under Irish law, so we will see how that goes.

You can go into irishstatutebook.ie and read any legislation.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118480271#Comment_118480271

Of course it's extreme. What you describe hasn't been considered acceptable since WW2, which is why there's been a wide variety of international laws implemented to regulate the treatment of enemy combatants.

Completely giving up the core elements of justice accepted within Western societies (and has been part of those societies for well over a century) is an extreme reaction. Executing prisoners without trial is an extreme... and it should be considered as such.

No. I don't believe we need to get down to their level of behavior, in order to react effectively to the threat. However, that doesn't mean that we shouldn't suspend or dismiss certain rights that are available to the normal person, in order to deal with extremists/terrorists who have been proven to be responsible for the crimes committed.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118480396#Comment_118480396

Personally, I think she should be deported and let the nations who were attacked by her organisation deal with her. We're obviously not equipped to deal with a situation such as this... and there's some justice in allowing the victims of her behavior/allegiance have direct access to her.

Relax brah

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118480396#Comment_118480396

Jihad and Sharia law - cannot ever be accepted as a form of governance in this country. The same failure of liberalism is evident in Western Europe, where the dogma of multiculturalism has left a secular Europe very slow to address the looming problem of religious extremism among its immigrants. The people who speak most sensibly about the threat that Islam poses to Europe are actually fascists. To say that this does not bode well for liberalism is an understatement: It does not bode well for the future of civilization.

Relax brah

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118481769#Comment_118481769

She moved to an Islamic state that had previously declared war on Ireland, she is without a doubt on that basis a terrorist. She claims to have known nothing about the bloodshed, cruelty and mass murder conducted in the Islamic state which is a total lie. She spent time in the Irish military and would’ve been educated on the conflict in the Middle East with a particular focus on the mujahdeen - as a country, we need to make an example of her.

The fact that a terrorist can walk freely and challenge our legal system is even a step too far.

We as a country need to accept that critiquing Islam, critiquing any idea, is not bigotry. “Islamophobia” is a troubled and inherently unhelpful term. Yes, hatred of Muslims by neo-Nazi-style groups does exist, and it is a form of cultural intolerance, but that must never be conflated with the free-speech right to critique Islam. Islam is, after all, an idea; we cannot expect its merits or demerits to be accepted if we cannot openly debate it - it’s a tipping point for us right now and we need to act appropriately by making an example of this women and showing the Islamic extremists that we will not tolerate them on this island.

Danzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118473957#Comment_118473957

Her years of helping in war crimes from genocide,to mass rape and returning legal Sex slavery to that region after the collapse of the Ottoman empire is going to be next to impossible to prove though.

She'll be free in a short time.

Ideally the Minister for Justice would extend her detention indefinitely but that's not happening.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118484879#Comment_118484879

'The fact that a terrorist can walk freely and challenge our legal system is even a step too far'

She hasn't walked freely from anything and everyone can challenge something legally and in the courts.

That's the beauty of living in a country that runs on law and order

Relax brah

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118485053#Comment_118485053

She is walking the streets and is not remanded on bail. She should never have been allowed back in this country from the moment she decided to join a terrorist organisation who have declared war on our country.

”the beauty of living in a country that runs on law and order,” - the fact is, she shouldve never been allowed back here in the first place. She is a terrorist and a threat to our people. Such an approach inevitably ends up empowering fundamentalists as the most authentic, because of course the one who wins the game of “Who’s a purer Muslim?” and outdoes others in a piety contest is the stubborn, dogmatic fundamentalist. This is how “fellow-travelers” disempower liberals and reformers. Without realizing it, they also adopt the role of thought police by asserting that liberalism isn’t authentic to Muslims. Again, this is reverse bigotry kicking in.

Islam is just a religion. Islamism is the ideology that seeks to impose any version of Islam over society. Islamism is, therefore, theocratic extremism. Jihadism is the use of force to spread Islamism. Jihadist terrorism is the use of force that targets civilians to spread Islamism - she jointed a jihadi movement and needs to be removed from our society.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118485111#Comment_118485111

😂😂😂

Of course she is on bail

Relax brah

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118485321#Comment_118485321

Have you read the Koran? Going by your posts I am 100% you have not because you have absolutely no clue what you are talking about.

It is time we admitted that we are not at war with "terrorism." We are at war with Islam. This is not to say that we are at war with all Muslims, but we are absolutely at war with the vision of life that is prescribed to all Muslims in the Koran. The only reason Muslim fundamentalism is a threat to us is because the fundamentals of Islam are a threat to us. Any who thinks differently should read the Koran and discover the relentlessness with which non-Muslims are vilified in its pages - this would’ve been a prerequisite for Lisa Smith prior to joining ISIS.

The idea that Islam is a "peaceful religion hijacked by extremists" is a dangerous fantasy — and it is now a particularly dangerous fantasy for Muslims to indulge.

Do yourself a favour and stop commenting on something Until you understand what you are talking about

RobbieTheRobber

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118485817#Comment_118485817

I very much doubt you have read the Quran.

Relax brah

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118485837#Comment_118485837

I have actually. Anything further to add?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118485817#Comment_118485817

And I am certain that you do not know very many Muslim people.

And what does any of this have to do with the fact that you don't even know how the justice system works in this country?

Lisa Smith is on bail, and you don't even know that 🙄

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118485844#Comment_118485844

Ever read the Bible?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118485817#Comment_118485817

Have YOU read the Qur'an?

Glock17

Is this the part of the argument where people say they have a muslim colleague and he's a good guy that wouldnt hurt a fly?

I just got in my time machine. I went back to 1930s germany, I spoke to this SS soldier, he was actually a pretty sound guy, we just hung out and chatted a bit. These Nazis really arent that bad, they do get a bad reputation though :(

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118486017#Comment_118486017

Which version do you suggest we read? A lot of the more recent translations/versions are either from right wing extremists like Tommy Robinson or from true believers of Islam. Something as simple as re-ordering the verses in an English translation, can give too much weight to certain teachings, that hold no such weight in the Arabic version(s). The older translations, well the most accurate was a LAtin translation, sponsored by the Church before the crusades, to try and find common ground with Islam..they couldn't

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118486046#Comment_118486046

This is the part of the argument where I say I work with a guy who doesn't like Muslims, but

I just got in my time machine. I went back to 1930s germany, I spoke to this SS soldier, he was actually a pretty sound guy, we just hung out and chatted a bit. These Nazis really arent that bad, they do get a bad reputation though :(

Glock17

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118486647#Comment_118486647

Let's look at some of the key attributes of the Nazis....

1. Absolutely hated jews. I mean Really hated.

2. Thought they were the master race.

3. Considered women as breeding stock.

4. Infamous for human rights abuses.

5. Constantly pushing other group out of their ancestral lands.

Do they remind people of any modern day groups?

Relax brah

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118486647#Comment_118486647

Indeed, the penalty1 for those who wage war2 against Allah and His Messenger and strive upon earth [to cause] corruption is none but that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from opposite sides or that they be exiled from the land. That is for them a disgrace in this world; and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment,

Quran 5:33

Fight those People of the Book who do not believe in Allah, nor in the Last Day, and do not take as unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have declared as unlawful, and do not profess the Faith of Truth; (fight them) until they pay jizyah with their own hands while they are subdued

Quran 9:29

A religion of peace.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118486219#Comment_118486219

Pick one.

It's a bit **** stupid to go and ask someone "have you read the Qur'an?" when said poster himself has not read the Qur'an, hence my reason for asking and will also be asking what his thoughts and opinions on it are if and when he replies.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118486929#Comment_118486929

And your overall thought and opinions of the book, rather than just a few selective quotes, please...? (And no, don't just ask ME if I'VE rread it - YOU'RE the one who brought it up).

I mean, I can take any selective quote from a Holy scripture and potray it's followers as barbaric heathens, can I not?

The idea that EVERY muslim follows every passage of the Qur'an to the later is as stupid as saying that EVERY Christian follows every passage of the Bible to the later - agree or disagree?

jmreire

Most of the knowledge that I have about the Quran comes from a Wahabbi colleague, and he explained it in a very simple to under stand way. For Muslims, the Quran is everything. It is the complete Manual for Life for ALL of mankind. Nothing else is needed, its the complete book of life for all time. Have a question or problem? the Quran has the answers.

So according to my Wahabbi friend ( now ex-friend though) want the justification for peace and love? Certainly, its all there in the Quran. Death, destruction and war? Same thing, consult the Quran. But the worst thing about it is that it cannot be changed. None of it, and that's the problem. The vast majority of Muslim's go by the Peace and Love part, but unfortunately too many follow the death and destruction part too. If all these destructive passages could be removed, it would completely remove the Jihadi's religious justification and authority.

Harryd225

Most people don't understand the real reason behind these terror attacks, the media won't tell you about it but the real reason these terror attacks happen is to bring to the attention of the western population what is happening in the middle east so that the west cannot act with free reign and then face pressure from home to stop.

Little to nothing to do with religion, if it wasn't for these terror attacks nó one would care less what the US and others are doing in the middle east, the terrorists in the west don't have the resources to launch a sustained campaign against military targets so their only option for any significant attack is against civilians.

That's the whole reason Lee Rigby the British soldier was killed years ago as he described in the video after the killing, if it wasn't for the video explaining himself I'm sure the media have painted some picture of him doing it for some religious cause.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118487389#Comment_118487389

I've noticed that people try to do to this a lot. Seek to extract Islam from the culture and politics of Islamic nations. It can't be done. Islam, as a religion, and the impact it has had on the cultural development of those nations, mean that it's always involved in the decision making processes to some degree.

This is a war between ideologies. It's really that simple. Western culture is a polar opposite of Islamic beliefs. We are the opposite in terms of womens rights, the use of alcohol, the manner in which people are punished, etc etc etc etc. On so many levels, we are the opposite of Islamic culturally acceptable norms. If they wouldn't accept their own people behaving in ways similar to westerners, why would they allow/tolerate westerners from behaving that way. History has shown plenty of examples where Islamic nations have dominated their neighbors ensuring that Islamic norms become supreme.

The core tenant of their faith is the belief that there should be one single religion in the world. That hasn't changed. And a core component of having everyone believe/follow the religion, is that all people obey the cultural/religious expectations by which people live by. Which means our views on women's rights, homosexuality, etc are all focus points for friction and violence... until we give them up and accept their views on life.

The actions of European powers or America in the M.East has some bearing on the situation, but the friction between western and M.Eastern nations would continue to exist even if Westerners had no involvement in their affairs. Thankfully, Islamic nations have mostly been weak, and western nations remained strong, economically, and in terms of military... but if that was ever turned around, with Islamic nations being stronger, I wouldn't be surprised to see conventional attacks on European territories.

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118487389#Comment_118487389

Harry, since the 6th century when Mohammad founded Islam, it has been in expansion mode....throughout history, it has ebbed and flowed, but the one constant is that it has never stopped trying to expand. And yes, its religion driven. The whole world must submit to Islam. You are aware that the ultimate aim and plan of ISIS was to march on Rome, and destroy it, don't you? Their media was full of " Kill the new Crusaders " propaganda. Saudi Arabia spend billions each year to spread the faith. So no, the msg has not changed. It was religious back then, and its religious now.

jmayo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118487389#Comment_118487389

You guys always seem to put your foot in it.

You use the example of the butchering of Lee Rigby to claim it is just about highlighting what was happening in Middle East.

In other words it has nothing to do with religion.

So were Lee Rigby's attackers from the Middle East or Middle Eastern descent ?

Ehh no would be the answer.

Michael Olumide Adebolajo, was born in Lambeth to a Christian family and was Nigerian descent.

No family links to Middle East.

Oh wait he converted to islam in 2003.

Michael Oluwatobi Adebowale was born in Britain to Nigerian family. His father worked for Nigerian High Commission.

No family links to Middle East.

Oh he was born christian and converted to islam in 2009.

Can you point out what these two gents have in common with the people in the Middle East ?

Maybe they are all fans of the same football team?

Maybe they all like the same pop music ?

Why would two Nigerian descent British born, christian reared guys suddenly attack someone because of the Middle East and what was happening to people there?

Maybe British born Nigerian descent just really care about highlighting in justices right around the world?

Sure there must be loads of attacks by British born Nigerian descent lads who are still christians, are athesists, are in scientology, etc ?

The only thing I can see they have in common with the vast majority of the people in the Middle East was their religion and ideology.

But of course islam never has anything to do with terrorism 🙄

Harryd225

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118488520#Comment_118488520

Hilarious some of the replies I've seen here, blame it all on Islam and place no blame on the West for the millions of dead in illegal wars and interference in the middle east.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118491271#Comment_118491271

I realise that you believe that terrorism can be excused, from your defence of Irish terrorists. But most rational normal people understand that there is no excuse for terrorism. There is never an excuse for killing people because of some mad idea you have in your head, no matter how you try to excuse it.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118491271#Comment_118491271

Well... I guess that's appropriate, since yours was the direct opposite. The piece I quoted earlier sought to make western involvement as being the only real consideration for what's happened. So.. yeah.. hilarious. I do note that you haven't countered what was said in opposition, and instead chosen to deflect instead.

Also, to date, there was one war that could be termed illegal, which was the US led invasion of Iraq based on falsified evidence. Which were these other illegal wars? (as they were approved under UN international laws)

Harryd225

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118491351#Comment_118491351

How am I trying to make excuses? People on here are claiming Islam is the cause for all these terrorist attacks while I'm claiming it's not and that it has far more to do with the millions of dead in illegal wars and ongoing western interference in the middle east.

But of course to the people on this thread it has nothing to do with any of that and everything to do with verses from the Quran.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118491446#Comment_118491446

you're still excusing terrorism. Obviously it's not just islam, because we don't have 1.9 billion islamic terrorists in the world.

There is no excuse for killing people because of a mad idea in someone head.

Harryd225

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118491474#Comment_118491474

Excusing terrorism? How the hell am I doing that? By explaining to people the reasons that these terror attacks happen? That's what qualifies for excusing terrorism these days?

jmayo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118491271#Comment_118491271

A chunk of the problems in the Middle East do come out of interference from Western states, but trying to lay all the blame on them is rather myopic.

The results of the Arab spring in Egypt highlighted the issue where if the people are allowed pick their own government a hell of a lot of them pick right wing islamists.

They are not interested in democracy ala the West which means secularism and a division between religion and the state.

What happened when Saddam was removed by the US and it's coalition is yes in some part due to the limited thinking of the US and UK, but also due to the tribalism that still exists in the Middle East.

The US's limited thinking was not understanding all Arabs are not the same, all muslims are not the same, all Iraqis that hated Sadam are not the same.

Something often highlighted by some posters around here (particularly the "not all muslims" posters) is that the vast majority of people killed by islamists are islamic.

That is indeed true, a lot of the people killed in Afghanistan or Iraq were killed by fellow muslims, all because they believed in a different or less strict brand of islam, or because they just wanted to get on with their lives and try make the best of their country and thus worked with the coalition forces.

The narrative by some is that the Americans are responsible for hundreds of thousands of dead civilians when the truth is a huge chunk of them were slaughtered by their countrymen.

Oh yes one can argue that these people wouldn't have been killed if the Americans hadn't invaded.

But from my knowledge of Afghanistan they were killing each other long before uncle Sam showed up and they were killing each other without the assistance of the US.

Likewise Iraqis were killing each other before the Americans got to Bagdad.

Trying to claim that things like islamist terrorism and incidents like taharrush gamea have nothing to do with islamic beliefs and islamic based cultures is ridiculous.

Maybe 5 years ago I saw some footage from an early 2000s (post-9/11) documentary, pretty sure it was BBC. Interviewed Muslims on the street, some of whom later got locked up. Anyway, one of their reasons for hating Britain were NATO's actions in the Balkans and their killing of Muslims in Yugoslavia in the 90s. That's the kind of politics involved in jihad.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118491495#Comment_118491495

in the same way that you explain Irish terrorism by blaming the British in northern Ireland🙄

Glock17

Just look at the amount of honour killings that happen within the Islamic community... if people are willing to kill sisters and daughters they arent going to feel bad about killing infidels...

I've read there are about a dozen honour killings in the UK a year. How many British muslims go back to pakistan and are killed? Hundreds?

Glock17

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118491446#Comment_118491446

In WW2 german cities were fire bombed and millions died. The yanks dropped nuclear weapons on two japanese cities.

You never hear about German or Japanese terrorism though?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118492173#Comment_118492173

How many are there? Can you post some links?

In India there are a massive amount of honour killing also.

Harryd225

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118492199#Comment_118492199

You must be having a laugh.

Glock17

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118492220#Comment_118492220

There seems to be a few links online that say there are a dozen honour killings a year in the UK...

I'd guess in pakistan it must be thousands a year (if not tens of thousands).. I've read that a lot of women have "accidents" where they get killed in a cooking fire....

I'd honestly think a lot of muslim women that get sent back to pakistan are getting killed....

It's absolutely horrific.

Glock17

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118492241#Comment_118492241

No?

Your argument is that terrorism is a reflection of wars in the Middle East? I'm just saying that we never had similar terrorism from germany or japan after WW2.

Your argument seems to lack merit.

Harryd225

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118492025#Comment_118492025

I never said all the problems in the middle east are because of the west I was explaining why terror attacks actually happen, it has little to do with religion.

Western media paint this picture mainly focusing on religion and people twisting the words of the quran as the reasoning people have for committing these attacks, which is simply not true, they generally hide the real reasons these terror attacks happen which is to put pressure on the governments and brings attention to western action in the middle east, here's a quote from an interview by Al Jazeera of one of the 7/7 bombers.

''I and thousands like me are forsaking everything for what we believe. Our drive and motivation doesn't come from tangible commodities that this world has to offer. Our religion is islam, obedience to the one true God and following the footsteps of the final prophet messenger. Your democratically-elected governments continuously perpetuate atrocities against my people all over the world. And your support of them makes you directly responsible, just as I am directly responsible for protecting and avenging my Muslim brothers and sisters. Until we feel security you will be our targets and until you stop the bombing, gassing, imprisonment and torture of my people, we will not stop this fight. We are at war and I am a soldier. Now you too will taste the reality of this situation''

The people who commit these atrocities are devout Muslims there's no doubt about that but to say that they commit these attacks solely out of religious belief is nonsense, if it wasn't for these terror attacks nó one in the west would give a s*** about what their governments are doing in the middle east.