Ireland badly needs a new centre-right party - Here's my proposal

osarusan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118179591#Comment_118179591

I wouldn't disagree, but that's not the point, because we're not talking about what good landlords would do. We were talking about the robustness of tenant protection, and the point is that the landlords who want get tenants to leave have ways to do so, more so than in many countries. We don't have robust tenant protection here.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118182136#Comment_118182136

And yet, there are a wide range of protections and rights for tenants in this country. Being a landlord is a private business.. not a service that is being provided by the government. Landlords should be able to get tenants to leave if they want, under reasonable terms, and within the agreement signed by both parties. As long as these landlords remain a business, that should be the case.

As for not talking about what good landlords do.. there was no hesitation about painting all landlords in a negative way, as long as it supported a certain narrative. Landlords want good tenants, and will often try to keep them, even if it means losing out on higher rents, because bad tenants cost a lot in terms of damage done to the property and losses in rents. Yes, many landlords will seek out the higher rents, pushing out tenants that won't pay the increased rates, but tenants should examine their rental agreement, and use that a basis for protection, in addition to the rights provided by the State. No system is ever going to be perfect, but we need to be careful to be fair to both landlords and tenants in this situation.

Think on this for a moment. A large percentage of landlords in Ireland are renting out their primary or secondary property. What would happen if they chose to stop renting them out to the general public? If these landlords believed that it was no longer viable for them to rent to the general population, and instead, created a closed circuit of possible tenants that relied on reputation among the landlords themselves, with more strict rental agreements (none of which is illegal... since people are under no obligation to rent their properties openly, as long as they pay their taxes). I know an estate where all the landlords already do this. How would that help things if it became more commonplace?

It's one thing to want protections for tenants.. but be careful not to push landlords into finding alternative ways to fill their properties, and protect themselves in the process.

osarusan

I don't know why you are replying to me though. I'm not commenting on rent or landlords or tenants in general, and am not interested in thinking about hypothetical slippery slopes.

I am just making the argument that, as other people have pointed out, Irish tenants do not have robust protection, as landlords have various ways to effectively force them out.

osarusan

Christy42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118182303#Comment_118182303

Most landlords renting out a secondary property would look to sell to get some money back either reducing prices down or having someone else provide the renting service. Landlords aren't providing a service, generally they are creating the requirement they are selling. They don't build the houses (generally). Certainly some rented accommodation is desired because of students or people starting off might not want to be tied down. When talking about tenants vs landlords there is a natural disparity in power. One is talking about their place of residence, the only thing keeping them from being homeless while the other is has an extra asset in play and does not stand to lose as much if things go wrong. Hence there will always need to be regulation to ensure that the tenant has an equal footing and that a landlord can't use a housing shortage to abuse tenants similar to how we have workers rights so that employers can't abuse emplyee rights during a job shortage.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118184647#Comment_118184647

One is talking about their place of residence, the only thing keeping them from being homeless 

The vast majority of the population have family to fall back on should they lose access to a rental property. This talk about people being homeless is dramatic nonsense. Besides the fact that if they're working, there are other avenues for getting accommodation in the short term, until something better comes along.

while the other is has an extra asset in play and does not stand to lose as much if things go wrong. 

They stand to lose a fair wack of money, and depending on their personal finances that could be rather difficult. But yes, they could recover easily enough, but the same can be said for most tenants.

ence there will always need to be regulation to ensure that the tenant has an equal footing and that a landlord can't use a housing shortage to abuse tenants similar to how we have workers rights so that employers can't abuse emplyee rights during a job shortage.

Which I have no problem with. A reasonable system should be in place to protect both tenants and landlords. Bear in mind the attitude of the posters over the last couple of pages, with their talk about scummy landlords.. there was a decided emphasis on the rights of tenants over that of landlords. My response was in relation to that unequal stance.

TaurenDruid

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118182303#Comment_118182303

And yet, there are a wide range of protections and rights for tenants in this country.

In law, yes. In practice, not so much. Feck all you can realistically do if the landlord has played the "Sorry I need the place for my nephew" card, you have to leave, and it's back up on daft two weeks later.

Being a landlord is a private business.. not a service that is being provided by the government. Landlords should be able to get tenants to leave if they want, under reasonable terms, and within the agreement signed by both parties. As long as these landlords remain a business, that should be the case.

So you don't believe in tenants having security of tenure, then. As long as they don't have it (and in contrast to the standard practice in most of mainland Europe), then people will not want to rent long term, they'll want to buy somewhere of their own.

Yes, many landlords will seek out the higher rents, pushing out tenants that won't pay the increased rates, but tenants should examine their rental agreement, and use that a basis for protection, in addition to the rights provided by the State. No system is ever going to be perfect, but we need to be careful to be fair to both landlords and tenants in this situation.

So what do you suggest people do when the landlord says "Nephew. Out." and you know he's lying, but you are legally obliged to take him at face value? Cos they're legally allowed terminate a lease if "needed by family".

Think on this for a moment. A large percentage of landlords in Ireland are renting out their primary or secondary property. What would happen if they chose to stop renting them out to the general public? If these landlords believed that it was no longer viable for them to rent to the general population, and instead, created a closed circuit of possible tenants that relied on reputation among the landlords themselves, with more strict rental agreements (none of which is illegal... since people are under no obligation to rent their properties openly, as long as they pay their taxes). I know an estate where all the landlords already do this. How would that help things if it became more commonplace?

Yes, it is indeed entirely all too feasible that landlords would engage in a gross breach of GDPR, in order to victimise those unruly, obstreperous tenants looking for things like insulation, leaks to be fixed, basic fire protection, and so on...

It's one thing to want protections for tenants.. but be careful not to push landlords into finding alternative ways to fill their properties, and protect themselves in the process.

Acting even more like the scummy landlord stereotype? All too believable...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118185018#Comment_118185018

In law, yes. In practice, not so much. Feck all you can realistically do if the landlord has played the "Sorry I need the place for my nephew" card, you have to leave, and it's back up on daft two weeks later.

Sure, I get that, although I suspect most small landlords would be frightened off by the fact that such tenants could sue them for damages through the RTB. The scenario you describe would be relatively easy to prove, and act upon. Now, if it remained with the family member, then, I agree completely with you that it's unfair.

So you don't believe in tenants having security of tenure, then. As long as they don't (as is standard practice in most of mainland Europe), then people will not want to rent long term, they'll want to buy somewhere of their own.

No, I don't. I believe in fixed-term contracts. Just because someone has rented for 6 months, shouldn't mean they have rights on that property for the next 4 years... but it does in Ireland.. so that's that. And people will want to buy somewhere else of their own, because that is what most people want anyway.. Security of tenure isn't the main factor in deciding that.

So what do you suggest people do when the landlord says "Nephew. Out." and you know he's lying, but you are legally obliged to take him at face value? Cos they're legally allowed terminate a lease if "needed by family".

No, I agree that is ****, and shouldn't be allowed.

Yes, it is indeed entirely all too feasible that landlords would engage in a gross breach of GDPR, in order to victimise those unruly, obstreperous tenants looking for things like insulation, leaks to be fixed, basic fire protection, and so on...

How is that a breach of GDPR? Based on the paragraph you quoted.

Acting even more like the scummy landlord stereotype? All too believable...

Acting like people with an investment in mind.. and protecting themselves in the process. I'm all for protecting tenants from unscrupulous landlords, but there's an attitude here that extends well beyond them, as if to suggest that these scummy landlords are the norm.. which I don't believe that they are.

However, I appreciate what you said above.. and you're right, in part. Tenant do need a range of protections that are effective. At the same time though, they're still tenants and not the owners of that rented property. A reasonable system for both groups should be in place and enforced...

Tony EH

Sure, I get that, although I suspect most small landlords would be frightened off by the fact that such tenants could sue them for damages through the RTB.

This just doesn't happen generally though, as most renters aren't in a position to go through the lengthy process to sue a landlord. That's a deep rabbit hole that 99% of people will want to avoid at all costs. Into the bargain, it can sully the renters name and can make getting another rented accommodation next to impossible. A lot of landlords these days are asking for references before they'll rent out to you.

The couple who were horsed out of the house across from us were going to go to see what the advisory boards could do about their situation, but concluded that it wouldn't be worth the time or the effort and they were probably right, as they're pretty toothless. The reckoned they'd be better off using that time to try and find another place instead, which isn't that easy in and of itself.

TaurenDruid

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118185203#Comment_118185203

How is that a breach of GDPR? Based on the paragraph you quoted.

Because it implies a cabal of landlords are keeping data on tenants - "and instead, created a closed circuit of possible tenants that relied on reputation among the landlords themselves", "I know an estate where all the landlords already do this." - including at minimum their names, previous addresses or other PII, and "reputation." That's a breach of GDPR, right there. Yes, even if it's a private WhatsApp group. Depending on what they're saying about people's reputations, it may also be libellous.

Bizarre you don't support security of tenure - it's the norm in most of mainland Europe, where a family can rent a home for decades if they so want, and because of that security, they do so! Isn't that much better for a landlord than having to find replacement "good" tenants every year or 4?

TaurenDruid

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118185799#Comment_118185799

This! If I've been fecked out of the place I'm renting, my main objective is to find a similar sized place that's still within budget, ideally in the same area (definitely in the same area if I have kids going to school!), moving my ****, getting accounts set up or transferred, and getting on with daily life. Sure, I'd have a look at daft, and I'll be hugely pissed off if I see the place back up for rent again (who knows, maybe the nephew died from COVID?), especially if this has already happened to me before (yes, I know ppl who've had this happen multiple times.) Will I have the energy, or the means, to try suing the landlord. Especially knowing - according to @[Deleted User] - there's every likelihood I'm going to be blacklisted for doing so? Nah.

Tony EH

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118186842#Comment_118186842

I'm glad I'm out of it and my time renting was pretty short as well, TBH. But I'd hate to be in the situation that renters are in in this country. It's an exhausting dilemma at the best of times. God only knows what it's like if there are kids in tow.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118186816#Comment_118186816

That's a breach of GDPR, right there

Ahh I understand. A fairly common occurrence I would guess then.

Bizarre you don't support security of tenure

Dunno why it's bizarre. I've rented most of my life without any problems, and also owned/rented out my property, with a host of problems. I would have been (past tense) one of those small time landlords renting out my primary property, and while I've had some great tenants, they stand out as great because of the others who were terrible tenants. While I appreciate the desire to protect renters (as I am one), at the same time, I've been burnt by terrible renters too.

There is no serious atmosphere in Ireland for long-term rentals except for migrants coming in, who are used to such things. If there was such an environment, we'd be seeing apartment towers rising up all over the city skylines... Due to conditioning, owning a house will remain the ambition of most people. Not renting long-term.

Murph85

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118176166#Comment_118176166

Yo8 could also argue that giving them possibly far more than they were earning before, had them out in shops, pubs and resteraunts more...

@[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118186842#Comment_118186842

Especially knowing - according to @[Deleted User] - there's every likelihood I'm going to be blacklisted for doing so? Nah.

Hold on a second. I didn't say that. I didn't even suggest anything like that. There is an attitude on this thread to portray renters as being innocent/wonderful people, and the landlords are all corporate types seeking money by any means.

The estate I referred to are all primary properties. These are all small time landlords, just as my estate were the same, and they're all normal people.. good people for the most part. There weren't any companies with multiple properties. I was part of their mailing list as it is alongside the estate of my old place. They're not sharing details about tenants, except to recommend good tenants or note tenants who who damaged the properties. Before they started doing this, the bad tenants would move around various properties in the area, and continuing their habits, sometimes doing very costly damage to the houses and the garden areas. It makes sense for landlords to know who is going to treat their properties with respect and those who won't.

We would all love for potential tenants to be all wonderful people who would respect the property, and leave it in reasonably good nick, beyond normal wear and tear. The sad thing though is that they're not that common. I had these three tenants who signed an agreement saying no pets, and then, brought in two large dogs who tore up the gardens, and left **** everywhere... the tenants themselves skipped on the last two months, without paying. Just as it's not worth it for tenants to sue, it's usually not worth it for landlords to sue. Each bad tenant leaves the house worse than before, and even with renovations between tenants, the overall quality of the property drops as a result.

So, yeah... I can definitely understand why landlords would want to share information about tenants... but they're not some kind of shadowy cabal out to make the lives of prospective tenants worse. They're simply people who would like to protect their investments.

Small landlords in Ireland tend to view their rental properties as their own, instead of an investment, if you know what I mean.

Tenants cannot make the property feel like home because the landlord doesn't allow it, from having your own furniture to putting up pictures. The tenant has to live in someone else's idea of home, not their own.

I would be perfectly happy renting forever, if I could furnish and decorate as I see fit. Doesn't happen in Ireland.

TaurenDruid

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118190403#Comment_118190403

Sorry, that's the impression I got from your post. My bad.

Yes, there are good and bad tenants, just as there are good and bad landlords. And I've seen what can happen with bad tenancies, firsthand, both in the apartment block I was living in and with a neighbour's house, where the tenants wrecked the place, literally left doors hanging off when they left. There seems to be a reluctance, though, on the part of some on this thread, to acknowledge that there's any wrongdoing at all on the part of landlords. I've done both too, being an "accidental" landlord for 18 months a couple of decades ago, and I was blessed with great tenants - after turning down a few who seemed dodgy, including the mates of the block's resident drug dealer (one of the landlords with multiple properties in the block did zero vetting or checks, literally first person through their door got one of their apartments).

And I mean, you've been a tenant and still don't even see anything wrong with people not being able to plan year to year, that people should only be able to get short-term leases and not plan for kids' schooling, set down roots in a community, etc. Absolutely, most Irish people don't want to rent long term (and why would they, given how the rental market is), probably going back to a race memory of famine times and the Land League, but New Irish and other recent EU immigrants won't have that hangup and would be happy to. If they had the same protections they'd get elsewhere in the EU!

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118190619#Comment_118190619

There seems to be a reluctance, though, on the part of some on this thread, to acknowledge that there's any wrongdoing at all on the part of landlords.

You're joking right? When I joined, the previous two pages were pretty full of condemnation about "scummy" landlords, with the tenants getting a complete pass.

And I mean, you've been a tenant and still don't even see anything wrong with people not being able to plan year to year, that people should only be able to get short-term leases and not plan for kids' schooling, set down roots in a community, etc

You make it sound like every landlord behaves the same when it comes to agreements and renewals. Get a decent landlord and likely, there won't be any issue with signing a longer contract, or simply knowing that you can renew each year. My last tenant signed for a year, and then asked for two more (because she had signed for a two year contract at work), and I had no problem doing that. It was perfect actually, although she asked to cancel early due to covid.

Absolutely, most Irish people don't want to rent long term (and why would they, given how the rental market is), probably going back to a race memory of famine times and the Land League, but New Irish and other recent EU immigrants won't have that hangup and would be happy to. If they had the same protections they'd get elsewhere in the EU!

I'm highly skeptical about any race memories. They'll want to buy a permanent property because that's been encouraged within Irish society for a very long time. The moment I started earning decent money, people started telling me don't waste money on rents, get a mortgage. As for the new Irish and immigrants, they can still sign up for such agreements. Long-term leases are available depending on the landlord.

I'm a little confused though. Security of tenure is in Ireland. So.. what protections are they missing in Ireland that they don't have in the rest of Europe?

Also, from what I know personally, and from what I've heard from friends living in Europe, getting screwed by a landlord is very common.

Tony EH

They'll want to buy a permanent property because that's been encouraged within Irish society for a very long time.

Only since the 80's when we copied Thatcher's Britain.

It wasn't ever really a thing here before, nor was it in Britain either. Certainly not on the scale we have seen in the last 35-40 years or so. The idea of buying a house is actually a relatively recent development for most people.

funkyzeit100

https://www.irishexaminer.com/business/arid-20417038.html

How foreign firms are making a killing in buying Irish property

A sample of what has been going on, this one from 2016.

If you want to know how the housing situation in this country goes from "strength to strength", there's the origin right there.

Id love to know just who owns what in this country. I'd say it would make heads spin and, quite quickly thereafter, heads roll too. So don't be holding your breath on finding out.

How many homes are owned by non-residents, how many by non-irish non-residents, what pension funds are we enriching around the world through our scandalous house prices, how many have "invested" for the free citizenship scheme, and so on.

I mentioned, somewhat sarcastically, in another thread that we are essentially a colony again, and it's not very far from the truth.

If you want to fix the housing crisis, there's one of the very definite routes to addressing it. A reclaimation.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118193419#Comment_118193419

It wasn't ever really a thing here before, nor was it in Britain either. Certainly not on the scale we have seen in the last 35-40 years or so.

Buying a house was a major thing for my parents, so they strongly encouraged the same for me. Still, I dunno about it not being a thing here before that.. since my grandparents both had their own houses. One a farmer in Carlow, and the other a small cottage in the West of Galway. Most people of my parents generation (that I'm aware of) would have bought (gotten a mortgage) a house for their themselves/families..

Dyr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118193879#Comment_118193879

Sure a cursory look at the history of Ireland will tell you that the land acts were not a big deal. The whole ownership thing only started in the 1980s 😂

RandomViewer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118193986#Comment_118193986

It's the new revisionism, on another thread they are making out that one-off housing didn't exist until the 1970s, trying to brainwash young people into thinking one-room co-living is normal,

Tony EH

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118193879#Comment_118193879

Sure, down the country building and owning a home was more of a thing than it was in towns and cities. Or the eldest took over the house and farm etc.

In urban areas, owning "property" wasn't that big a thing for most people in either Ireland or Britain until around the 80's. There were some people who would have considered it important, of course, but it just wasn't de rigueur as it is today.

But with renting being the meltdown nonsense that it is in this country these days, I'd encourage people to start putting by money for a deposit as soon at they get their first job and if I had a kid, I'd be starting a little bank account for them for that very purpose.

Pawwed Rig

Anyone I know in their 70s and 80s have owned houses since they could afford it. There was never renters outside council tenants when I was growing up in the 1980s. We are talking about Ireland here right?

TaurenDruid

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118197086#Comment_118197086

In urban areas, owning "property" wasn't that big a thing for most people in either Ireland or Britain until around the 80's. There were some people who would have considered it important, of course, but it just wasn't de rigueur as it is today.

Nope - even in cities, outside of council estates, it was always very much a case of if you can buy, then buy. I grew up not too far from the inner city and almost everyone on our street had a mortgage. I've no reason to believe any of the neighbouring streets was any different.

The one difference was that housing was, relatively, a lot cheaper - the assumption was if one person of a couple was working in any sort of stable job, they could afford to provide for spouse, kids, bills and mortgage. Now the assumption is you have to be a couple to get a mortgage, and both of you have to be working.

RandomViewer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118199698#Comment_118199698

Wouldn't be much stats on private renting from then as it would have been entirely cash and no one registered, There were empty houses everywhere so rents would have been very low

kowloon

I could have sworn I read there was an aversion to renting here that goes back to The Famine.

RandomViewer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118214376#Comment_118214376

Very few Catholics would have owned land during the famine so that is unlikely, peoples aversion would have come from not wanting to find themselves beholden to landlords like their ancestors,

kowloon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118240685#Comment_118240685

That's what I meant, the famine being a cause of the aversion to renting due to people being kicked out during the famine.