Will (or indeed should) the UK ever rejoin the EU?

ujjjjjjjjj

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118033016#Comment_118033016

The UK and Ireland now being in different customs and standards regimes necessitates the need for an border as long as NI remains part of the UK.

This is just a reality. The border need not be troops and fences and with a combination of modern tech and monitoring and random checking it could be relatively un-invasive and people under the CTA can travel freely anyway so no issues there. If people choose to start shooting that ultimately is their call, it doesn't change the reality of needing a border between two countries.

You are painting the emotive picture of British Troops and militarisation............not required if the two governments got together and worked it out amicably.

I fully understand why it's an emotive issue, why it was weaponised and why people view it as non-negotiable but it doesn't mean it's not required.

We can talk this round in circles all you want and couch it all in emotive language but reality is reality and as long as people avoid it the mess will continue.

The NIP is a load of nonsense and always was, a political fudge and 10 months into this mess it still is.

Do I like the mess no, is it what anyone wanted in Ireland ? Don't think so but it's an unfortunate side effect of Brexit but that has happened now.

Ultimately it's all language. What is a hard border ?

If we had trusted trader schemes, technology and random stops and checks on goods moving across the border with free movement of people is that a hard border ?

It almost became Option A) No Border. B) Wire, Closed crossings and British Army. Why ?

There is a middle ground.

Podge_irl

The UK was given ample opportunity to demonstrate how their supposed smart border would work and they ultimately produced nothing. Suggesting you could have a border with just technology and trusted trader schemes is utter fantasy. This is like groundhog day.

The UK won't be re-joining any time soon anyway. It is far too much of an ideological issue for them at this point. However, I suspect they may start aligning bit by bit over the coming years, probably while announcing great new deals every time.

fash

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118033095#Comment_118033095

No there is no middle ground - look at what checks need to be done in France. Those checks need people to undertake them - and without an army, those people are soft targets. If there is a single person sympathetic to IRA ideology anywhere in Ireland with a weapon, the first death of a customs official sparks off an immediate and irreversible (in the circumstances) militarisation. (Which is what happened the last time).

Imposing a border in northern Ireland cutting off villages from their hinterlands which are fully open (in breach of the GFA strand 2 obligations let's not forget) will not be accepted by the locals (and why should it).

If you think "trusted trader", facial recognition for sheep, blockchain and all that nonsense works- then it obviously works far, far more easily between NI & GB than between NI & Irl. And don't forget those checks become ever more onerous & important as the UK diverges more and more from the EU.

Furthermore, no it is not a "reality", the UK signed up to the NIP - and the UK government won an election on the back of the "oven ready deal" which"got brexit done".

It is accepted by & benefitted from by the people of Northern Ireland (who let's not forget voted to remain in the EU & single market), it was approved by the Northern Ireland Assembly - who are you to tell them they need to bow to the Brexiters' plan to renege on the UK's solemn undertakings?

It is working perfectly well insofar as it is being operated. NI shelves & petrol stations are full, and NI is attracting investment and exports to the EU are significantly up. It is only through attempted sabotage by UK government, the UK's intentional delay of checks into GB to delay the grim reality of brexit on GB by comparison and the UK government's hurried attempts to get their false narrative out before reality intrudes too much ( which would have been around Christmas if they haven't entered a trade war by then), that makes it seem in any way otherwise as the moment (and even now it's fairly obvious that the UK narrative that it's "not working" is being shown up more & more by food & fuel shortages, wastages of vegetables, animals & milk, inflation, waste not being collected and various other shortages at a snowballing rate).

And again, how long do you think the Irish politician who agrees to that is likely to stay alive? Or that their party stays in existence?

topmanamillion

The British will never rejoin the EU as that would be them admitting defeat.

I would imagine there'll be a softening of the rhetoric over the next decade or so and a realisation that there will need to be some cooperation from the British towards the EU. They may even rejoin the single market and become a Norway/Switzerland/Iceland type. The likes of America turning their nose up at the British as they have done in the last few months will help speed that process up.

The British need to be very careful they dont turn into an Argentina or Venezuela. Once prosperous and successful countries whos p1ss poor policies plunged them into the dark ages. And there is a real possibility thats where the British are headed with their current policies.

ujjjjjjjjj

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118033205#Comment_118033205

Agree in a way and yes it will be groundhog day for sometime to come folks....

Suspect yes in time as tensions lower on all sides (it is all very emotive still) closer cooperation and alignment will result to a point and that is probably the best solution all round.

ujjjjjjjjj

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118033215#Comment_118033215

The NIP isn't in functional place yet, keeps getting extended....

Look one thing we can agree on is that there is no easy solution to this but when you have two countries with differing customs and standards a border is required. That is just like saying rain is wet and sugar is sweet. The fudge we have now won't ever be fully implemented or will result in a trade war if Britain or the EU declares Article 16.

Do I want a border in Ireland, of course not but it is the only solution bar a United Ireland that is not a messy fudge that either won't ever be fully implemented or results in a trade war.

The only other option and this may we be the end result in time, as really I am struggling to see a fix here ( and yes I know no Irish government will ever agree to a border) is having a theoretical border down the Irish Sea which in time the UK doesn't actually enforce or pay any attention to and in turn the EU ignores any lack of enforcement.

That may we be the de facto status quo and if so perhaps it is for the best.

fash

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118033291#Comment_118033291

The NIP is mostly functional - let's not forget the "80% of checks are being carried out by UK customs officials" line and just last week, after months & months of delay, the UK finally started sharing their data with the EU for example.

Meanwhile, checks for moving goods into the UK are estimated to first be in place in 2025.

Why did the UK absolutely insist on implementing the NIP without warning or business preparation - while waiting years to do the same for GB?

A16 does not implement a trade war. Invoking A16 in good faith certainly doesn't - and even invoking A16 but only using it within its remit does not

Reneging on the protocol, however, does initiate a trade war - and it will not be the EU that takes that step.

An Irish sea border (which we have) is the only solution (aside from revoking hard brexit and not uniting Ireland). It is agreed, it is accepted and it must be enforced. Why should it not? You yourself said that trusted trader stuff etc. is easy - why can't all of that be used on the Irish sea border? There has been an SPS border between NI & GB for a long time, soil cannot be imported since 1972 I believe, and aside from entirely different laws, there have even been different customs.

As for a "non enforced border" - that goes back to Ireland being literally forced to swallow British BSE infected beef that they cannot sell anywhere else in the world and so smuggle into Ireland. Again slightly earlier you were explaining how easy it would be to have "alternative arrangements" at the British border in Ireland - why would it be so difficult to enforce the same in the sea?

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118032959#Comment_118032959

Leaving the EU would suggest there was a rival 450m strong Single Market and Customs Union in Europe for them to join.

That not being the case, that would suggest they would leave for purely political reasons and on a whim, even if it might wreck their economy in the process.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118032946#Comment_118032946

Why is the EU at fault?

UK were told their options were all of UK in the Single Market, adhering to the 4 pillars, or NI in.

London chose to have NI in and to sign a treaty

ujjjjjjjjj

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118033367#Comment_118033367

NIP isn’t functional atm and both sides are sabre rattling atm over a trade war....

Well the simple reason is having an Irish Sea Border (in actual practice and not just some made up fudge where no one is checking anything) is never going to be acceptable to Unionists. That is the long and the short of it and we all know that.

Yes a United Ireland fixes it but that is another story altogether.

As for your fixation on BSE it is really quite amazing.....that poor cow in Somerset !! They must be dropping dead all over the UK as we speak.

ujjjjjjjjj

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118033413#Comment_118033413

Not solely the EU at fault both sides agreeing to the NIP when it was always a fudge was the error. It was from Day one a fudge to meet political needs everywhere.....and now we live with the mess.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118031668#Comment_118031668

I take your point about unsettling the 26, but I believe it is in the best interests in the long run to unite the country.

On the point of NI going with an Independent Scotland. That may work for the northern unionists with historical links to Scotland but nationalist don’t have that history. Nationalists identify much more with the 26 than Scotland.

fash

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118033452#Comment_118033452

NI protocol is mostly working and insofar as it is not, it is mostly because the UK lacks the functional capacity to enforce it because it failed to prepare and refused longer grace periods.

Who cares what is acceptable to unionists? Nothing (in terms of brexit) that is acceptable to them (i.e. DUP/TUV at least - and some parts of the UUP at least) is acceptable to nationalists. And the only way they get to keep Northern Ireland as part of the UK long term is if there is a successful NI protocol. No protocol means a hard border which means a nationalist "must win at all costs" push for unity - a Catholic community which is now a majority as well as Ireland which must push for a United Ireland as a strategic necessity. Furthermore, it is only relevant if if the UK reneges on the treaty - and is put under crippling economic sanctions for reneging on its international commitments.

Furthermore (and to repeat) the people of NI voted to remain in the single market, the NI assembly approved the protocol and no other proposals have "cross community consent" - so why should anyone move away from the (working very well thank you very much) protocol in breach of UK's undertakings- at the behest of a supremacist unionist minority?

Where there is 1 BSE cow, there are more - and it is merely one example of the horrific British (non) standards in food and agriculture - standards which they will try to force on us. (And you should really look up the effects and prognosis of CJD before you dismiss BSE).

Parachutes

The E.U would fall over backwards to accommodate them if they wanted to rejoin.

ujjjjjjjjj

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118033603#Comment_118033603

Just like the masses of BSE cows in Ireland after our one cow came down with it. Could it be a major outbreak yes, could it be one isolated case quite probably. Right now would happily eat British or Irish beef.

Well aware of CJD thanks.

Not aware of any forcing standards on us by the UK ? Or have I missed something where the UK gets to dictate our food standards now or perhaps they will be flooding Ireland with it in Loyalist gang trucks next spring....

And if you think the NIP is working, well okay, not the case but anyway. Our unionist friends have plenty of ability to turn the North back to the worst of times that is why I care about keeping them passive and quiet.

If we get through this next round of EU negs with the UK over the protocol without a collapse in talks perhaps it can be put on the back boiler for a while. In fairness to the EU they moved hugely on many British demands in the last round of talks so there is hope but it may never be enough but only time will tell.

Fudge it is and always will be and where we end up with it I really don't know.

GM228

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118030724#Comment_118030724

Sometime in the future - The sovereign state formerly known as the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland shall henceforth be known as the United Kingdom of (Roman) Britain and (somewhat) Northern Ireland.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118033627#Comment_118033627

Not with this current government of Europhobes, plus an EU-hating press dominating the media landscape. No club would admit a prospective member who had expressed hatred for the club and who had a secret wish to disrupt or destroy it.

techman1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118033394#Comment_118033394

As time moves on as the reality of Britain outside of the EU settles down the extraordinary thing will be the reality that Britain actually did join in the first place, I think that was the aberration as it is so contrary to everything in British history. The reality is that it was a mistake for them to join in the first place.

I think alot of why they joined was probably linked to the Soviet Union occupying eastern Europe and that was seen as the biggest threat, a united and rich western Europe as a counter to the impoverished eastern European communist bloc.

Now things are different, Europe no longer has a single vision that everyone agrees on like then, eastern Europe now has a completely different set of beliefs and priorities to western Europe,

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118034313#Comment_118034313

They joined for economic reasons. The UK was 'the sick man of Europe' in the late 60s and early 70s, riven by strikes and three day weeks, power cuts, fuel shortages and widespread poverty. The average person in the EEC6 had a better standard of living, better wages, better working conditions, more disposable income etc.

The liars and crooks of the Brexit movement have edited all this hardship out, claiming it never even happened and instead that Britain was "tricked" into joining the EEC by Edward Heath.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118030805#Comment_118030805

The world needs more integration and shared approach than isolation and division.

That's a simple fact.

fash

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118033853#Comment_118033853

Not really "secret".

fash

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118033696#Comment_118033696

Let's see how things develop with the "high" British food standards that they refuse to lock in to EU standards then.

By flooding Ireland with substandard rubbish, the UK forces Ireland down to its level - are you aware of why the border checks were first set up by Ireland to protect against British attempts to economically undermine the then free state in order to make independence a failure?

As for the NIP - again despite UK government attempts to sabotage and to incite violence, NI had no fuel shortages, no food shortages, no food produce wastages. Instead it has inward investment and growth in exports. That's indeed a "success" - an in fact an outrageously good one - especially in comparison to the cluster**** to hit GB as they begin to implement even a part of the full checks required by Johnson's brexit.

Deeming success to mean "acceptable to fringe crazed hate-filled ideologues in the DUP, TUV & ERG" means that anything that does not involve the subjugation of Ireland and an actual war with Europe is not "success".

So yes, the NI protocol is indeed a success - and far more successful than the other options on the table (i.e. no deal & a hard border in Ireland ).

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118033627#Comment_118033627

Would you like to try and explain why you believe this or is it simply a case of the EU needs the UK a lot more than the UK needs the EU?

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118034691#Comment_118034691

Pretty much by definition, a UK wanted to rejoin the EU would be a very different country, politically speaking, from actual UK today. Ask yourself how UK politics would have to change before a Rejoin campaign could flourish and achieve victory in the UK, and then ask yourself whether a UK which had changed in that way would be an attractive proposition to the EU? We are, at the very least, talking about a UK in which a new and very different generation of political leaders has come to the fore. (But of course that's something that will inevitably happen.)

I don't think the EU would fall over backwards to admit the UK in that scenario, but it would be favourably disposed in principle. The whole point of the EU is to deepen relationships and advance integration between European countries, and the UK is and will remain a significant European country.

But the EU would also be cautious, obviously; it would want to know that the UK's decision to rejoin represented a considered and settled consensus, not an opportunistic hijacking by political elites of a transient narrow majority in a badly-conducted referendum. And it would probably want to take a fairly gradual approach; how about the UK enters into an Association Agreement, joins the EEA, and - if it hasn't already, before it applies to rejoin - spends ten years or so demonstrating good global citizenship?

techman1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118034375#Comment_118034375

Yes I agree that is all true, the German economy of the 60s and 70s was a marvel , so much innovation , technology and drive. They didn't have the hang ups of the British trade unions or out dated work practices.

But that is hardly true today, Germany is no longer driving forward in technology, the high tech revolution is driven by the U.S. and Asia, Europe is way behind. It hasn't done much in 2 decades. The big surprise is that this is not seen as a problem in Brussels, it barely gets any traction at all that there is little innovation . Where are the European. Google , Apple or Alibaba's

Sam Russell

Well, the (West) German economy of the sixties and seventies did not have a huge defence bill. They did not have the huge cost of reunification until the nineties, and are still suffering from that. However, they have controlled inflation as a religion. GB£10,000 invested in DM in 1963 would be worth €50,000 today. In the 70s, the UK had an annual inflation rate above 20%.

The UK in the sixties were still suffering from the huge cost of WW II, plus the cost of the NHS (it might have been free at the point of delivery but it was expensive), and the loss of the Empire. It had foreign exchange controls where an individual could not take over £50 abroad. It also had the effect of the changing Gov politics as the main parties moved into and out of power - changing fundamental economic policies, while harvesting much from the magic money tree. In 1992, they plucked the last from that tree, as Sterling had to leave the ERM in disgrace - unable to keep Sterling within the required range.

When Britain did finally join the EEC in 1973, it was the sick man of Europe - a shadow of the world power it was a century before. It did OK in the EEC, until the SM allowed it unfettered access to the EU markets which it exploited using the City of London to become a world power in finance.

Now, where is it? Why would the EU want/allow it back?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118035675#Comment_118035675

it's funny how people like to talk about the sick man of europe, while advocating for Corbynesque policies at the same time. The EEC played a part in turning the UK around, but only a bit part compared to the tough love treatment it got from the Thatcher government.

Yes, the City did ok out of the EU, some could say very well. Big Bang approaches to the global finance industry also played a huge role. In the grand scheme of things, this makes little or no difference to 90% of the population. They couldn't care less if a few bankers can or can't afford to buy themselves a new Porsche, they care about jobs and what they have seen is a gradual shift of these out of the UK. Everything from from baby milk, to frozen ready meals to Land Rovers have slowly moved to cheaper, lower cost countries.

The pandemic highlighted this perfectly. The UK was at the very forefront of vaccine development and testing, yet had zero capability to manufacture vaccines itself. The UK is the worlds largest buyer of pharmaceuticals (in the guise of NHS Procurement) and yet could not actually mass produce something as simple as a vaccine. A Vaccine developed at the same place that developed the world's first vaccine.

What the UK needs to do, is to redress some of this inbalance. Stop companies using the UK's brains to develop IP, only to manufacture the output in the cheapest place possible.

When governments have addressed this and made the UK a place where products can be designed, developed, tested and then manufactured bringing jobs and prosperity across the spectrum, then the UK will be in a place where it can to start thinking about rejoining the EU. Provided the Germans haven't gotten fed up with it by then and left themselves.

Sam Russell

I like the idea that it is UK brains that develops all or even most IP in the UK. It is generally much wider net than solely the UK brains or solely UK funding that is responsible for the IP.

It was German brains that developed the leading Vaccine for Covid.

fash

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118036010#Comment_118036010

Even Turkish-German...

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118036010#Comment_118036010

This is a big one. Have a look at any department at one of the UK's elite, world leading Universities and see how many Anglo-Saxon names are leading or conducting high level research. IME, damn few. One of the reasons that UK research is so strong is that they're attracting talent from both Europe and the rest of the world. People want the best chances for themselves and in some sectors, my own included, that's easily the UK if you can get a visa. I can't see this continuing in the same vein but if the government can manage migration going forward, the impact shouldn't be too bad.

Manufacturing is a different ball game. The idea of attracting it back from China is just fanciful. The infrastructure, the supply chains and the talent have all adapted to being Sinocentric and that won't change because Johnson has talked a big game about levelling up while gutting state investment in some of the poorer regions (Cornwall has lost 97% of the funding it was getting from the EU, for instance).

UK research and IP were in a much stronger position while the country was in the EU. Hopefully, we at least get close alignment in the years to come but I'm skeptical.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118036010#Comment_118036010

depends how you define "Leading" I guess. The Oxford vaccine has vaccinated more people globally than any other vaccine, thanks to its low cost and easier storage. So youcould argue that is the leading vaccine.

If you define leading by making a Pharma giant billions, then I guess the one created by BioNtech would be the leader.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118036210#Comment_118036210

So to be British you need an "Anglo-Saxon" name?

The people may come from all over the world but, like you and others on this forum, they come for a reason and I'm guessing that isn't the weather. That's pretty irrelevant though, this creation of knowledge needs to trickle down. I used Pharma as an example, that could be any number of things.

jm08

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118033696#Comment_118033696

Forget BSE, that is well under control now. (Largely occurs naturally in older animals that never get into the food chain - that Irish cow with BSE was 15 years old). More of a problem is something like Foot and Mouth. To refresh your memory that came about by an intensive pig farmer in North of England feeding food slops off a plane from South America to his pigs. It spread quickly around UK, including North of Ireland from where sheep shipped to France via Rosslare brought it to France. England will always be a problem because of its intensive farming methods and its fairly relaxed attitude to enforcing standards (not enough vets employed). That is the main reason why you will find the EU very hot on veterinary checks and food standards.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118036458#Comment_118036458

I didn't say that you did. I don't know where you're getting this from.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118036655#Comment_118036655

It certainly came across that way.

But do you get my point? it's all well and good have centres of excellence and innovation, but other than the odd nobel prize and maybe a knighthood here and there, what does it mean to the average Joe? It's Dyson all over. Flying the flag for British ingenuity is one thing, but when it just leads to jobs in Malaysia then it isn't really that much to get excited about.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118036799#Comment_118036799

Well, I'd have preferred a better metric but academics don't typically list their nationality. The anti-immigration brigade generally don't care if the people they're agitating against hold British passports so in that regard the difference is moot.

I don't know if the rest of your post is serious. Surely new technologies and medical innovations are good for obvious reasons, no? Nobody seems to have a problem with Dyson's manufacturing practices since he has the right political beliefs.

The point about manufacturing makes little sense to me. The Conservative party have done all they could to destroy the UK's manufacturing sector. Sure, there are some advanced manufacturers but it's a shell of what it was. I don't see why you're complaining about it now.

techman1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118036325#Comment_118036325

But the fact is that the leading vaccines were developed by German and British companies, universities independent of any involvement from the EU. It was national governments and private companies that were at the vanguard and were working night and day to come up solutions. The EU was strangely absent except in the challenge with AZ which amounted to nothing anyways.

The same with the migration crisis in 2015, it was also left to national governments to sort that. It wasn't the EU that made the big decisions but Angela Merkel for better or worse

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118036811#Comment_118036811

yes. New technologies etc are good, that is without doubt in my opinion. But, if you invest heavily in R&D, which then is shipped elsewhere, all you are doing is making the gulf with the elites bigger (and by elites, I mean those that were able to attain the higher levels of education). You could tax those higher earners, but then all they will do is go elsewhere.

There needs to be a connection between those that invent and those that make, which seems to be missing at the moment. Take the announcement today about Ford Halewood. That's good news for the people that work there, but I would argue that proper levelling up would be that Ford get a big hand out to do all the design work on electric cars (or bits thereof), on the condition that manufacture of those parts is retained in the UK.

I don't think the UK can address this without some serious incentives to companies, most likely above and beyond those allowed within the EU (which, if you remember was one of the final sticking points in the Brexit agreement). When this has done and the UK has addressed it's imbalance, then it will be ready to rejoin the EU.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118036924#Comment_118036924

I think calling anyone with a higher education degree is a bit silly to be honest. I'm not really sure what your point is either. I don't get any benefit from Trident nuclear missiles but I'm not overly bothered about being rid of them either.

Supply chains are global. That's the way it is and a vote to disrupt trade didn't change that one iota. All it did was incentivise some companies to leave the UK.

Serious incentive to companies sounds like massive handouts of public money to corporations and friends of the Tory party to me.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118037043#Comment_118037043

I'm not saying everyone with a degree is an elite, just that the laws of nature dictate that some people will be able to attain a higher degree of learning than other. if not we'd all be brain surgeons and Pilots. Some people are elite, just as not everyone who can kick a ball can earn £50 grand a week playing in the premiership.

Globalisation has effectively allowed multinationals to cherry pick the best bits of each country, so they can develop IP in the country that excels in that, then get the stuff made in the cheapest place possible and filter the profits back to whoever owns the company in the US so they can buy themselves a new spaceship. It just creates and imbalance. Correcting that imbalance is effectively levelling up.

What's the alternative, tax the rich and give it to the poor?

I'll ignore the last sentence, that's just the sort of comment you see on twitter.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118037158#Comment_118037158

So, your solution is to cover the costs of building their facilities? Globalisation offers huge benefits but it needs to be managed like anything else. Neoliberal governments ideologically oppose this sort of management but it's absolutely necessary as this pandemic has shown.

I'm not really sure what this has to do with the UK possibly rejoining the EU in any case.

fly_agaric

The ironic thing here is (I think) the UK as a large member state (and esp. when having a Conservative govt. in charge) would have been one of the important supporters of these now somewhat discredited and falling out of favour pure free market ideas at EU level (i.e. preventing governments giving "state aid" + kneecapping ability of the state to influence development of industry etc.). I think Ireland probably was as well (one Commissioner we sent, Charlie McCreevy comes to mind).

It may be good (for the UK) that they are doing somewhat of a 180 on it under Boris Johnson, but the way this is now all put retrospectively on UKs EU membership as is tradition at this point...enough to make a cat laugh.

Seems like just another "blame the smell on the dog/the barking spider" (EU membership) when it comes something causing a problem in the UK.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118037196#Comment_118037196

Do you think Slovakia went from building no cars, to being the worlds largest car producer per capita by accident, or that Dell decided to up stick from Limerick and open up in Poland for the fun of it? Governments offer inventives all the time. The question is, how can one government manage something that is to its detriment, if it benefits 12 other countries in the EU?

when the UK can address some of this imbalance that globalisation has created, then it will be in a position to rejoin the EU and I am confident that it will.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118037386#Comment_118037386

Quite easily I would imagine. Germany has managed to develop a strong manufacturing sector while being in the EU.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118037655#Comment_118037655

yeah, it has. Or at least it has managed to retain it's manufacturing sector and keep it's wages relatively high as well. This could be, in part, their refusal to allow migrants from the secession states freedom of movement in the early days.

The problems with the UK aren't recent events, the decline of indigenous manufacturing goes back further than the UK's EEC/EU membership, I just feel they need to be addressed before the UK will be in a position for the country to look at going back in to the EU. It might just be that the adjustment the UK is going through now will help with that.

I see Amazon are offering signing on bonuses now, so this will ultimately have a knock on effect. If the UK was still in the EU, their solution would be to ship over a load of Poles rather than pay realistic wages.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118037804#Comment_118037804

It doesn't. Manufacturing collapsed under Thatcher. The British electorate simply doesn't care about manufacturing as they keep voting in the party who destroyed it.

jm08

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118036325#Comment_118036325

The head of the Jenner Institute is Irish who devoted his life to developing vaccines for tropical diseases such as malaria and covid. Dr Teresa Lambe (UCC graduate) was one of the leading scientists developing the AZ vaccine (there was no way they were getting any credit for their part in Brexit GB). The development of mRNA vaccine by the Turkish-German company will probably have a lot more uses than the Oxford vaccine so should be regarded as a major break through in medicine. By the way, the EU Commission was a major funder of the Oxford vaccine. I don't think the British Gov. got in on the act until it needed to manufacture it.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118037882#Comment_118037882

Which is not only incorrect, but also irrelevant to my point.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118037820#Comment_118037820

Nissan in Sunderland, Honda in Swindon and Toyota in Derby would indicate otherwise.

companies like British Steel and British Leyland (showing my age now) collapsed in the seventies. All the thatcher government did to stop the tax payer propping it up.

ujjjjjjjjj

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118036924#Comment_118036924

Across Europe be it the EU or Brexit Britain the main economic mover needs to be very much along the lines of what you are suggesting here - what is the point in attracting endless IP and R&D jobs when the manufacturing goes to China................

Bottom line is we have to start manufacturing more in Europe and accept it will cost more but it is essential not only to remove dependence on China but for a zillion environmental reasons (shipping widgets from China is a disaster environmentally) along with the obvious one of providing well paid skilled manufacturing jobs instead of mindless zero hour service jobs or poxy call centres. Some countries are better than other - in Germany skilled manufacturing jobs are highly regarded - less so elsewhere in Europe and all of Europe needs to priortise moving manafacturing back to Europe - if the whole Covid fiasco has taught us anything it's this.....

Interesting you raise Halewood - British Government ponied up 30 million pounds to secure that investment and it looks like a major win - I am not a EU 'illegal state aid' expert but is this a clear and simple case of the UK being able to do something that it couldn't have when in the EU ?? Heaven forbid an advantage of being outside the EU ??

I know it's not a popular position on here but there MAY be advantages to the UK being outside of EU regulations.........any armchair experts on EU illegal state aid rules do feel free to chip in !!