New handicap system

Seve OB

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118420764#Comment_118420764

would rather just quote or highlight the line but new boards don't allow it ☹️

it cannot possibly be easier for you to see what your handicap is.

before if it was 14, it was 14 wherever you went! now you have to look it up 😆, but yea, its not hard to do

Seve OB

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118420946#Comment_118420946

re that junior

that is crazy, why did he not have an official handicap when he was a junior member. the record should just flow from there. absolutely no need to take his handicap off him to give him an official one. he should have always have an official one.

its a new one on me and not something i experienced when i progressed from being a junior, and it does not AFAIK to any juniors in my clubs.

is this common practice amongst other clubs that you don't have an official handicap till you turn 18?

blue note

The club would give juniors an official handicap when they got down to about 20. The official one would tend to start at 16 and once you had it you could play in the senior comps, although you couldn't win them. But once you weren't a junior and became an intermediate member they had to give you an official handicap.

That guy would have turned 18 in 2001, so you're going back a long way. I don't know if things have changed since. But under CONGU, the only way you could go up quickly was through your handicap secretary. And if you have someone putting in a year of bad scores, maybe they average low 20 points, how many shots back would you expect a handicap secretary to give them? It should probably be around 9 or 10 and that could put a man to a 30 handicap. I'm not sure if there was a handicap secretary in the country that would have done that. Imagine if they won a comp after that? I'd say they'd be more likely to give them about 4 shots back and maybe they'll have a couple of scores breaking 30.

CalamariFritti

You could have a point re: complexity. because we were just so used to congu however standard scratch was never anything the player was concerned with. So I wouldnt count that one.

I am not actually opposed to the new system. But it has problems which hopefully are just bedding in problems. But the way it presented itself in its first year I think it caused more problems than it solved.

CalamariFritti

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118421343#Comment_118421343

Boards does allow smoother quoting. Its a little more involved but it does look neater

a) Highlight the text you want to quote and copy and paste it into your reply

b) place cursor on that line or select pasted text entirely if more than one line

c) at this point this little 'paragraph symbol' or whatever it is appears on the left

d) click on that then select the apostrophe, then select the ' " quote' option

e) then the thing below happens

f) if you want to be clear/fancy place cursor just above and start typing beginning with the 'at' sign (@)

g) as you start typing it presents you with user names, complete that

h) Voila!

@Seve OB

would rather just quote or highlight the line but new boards don't allow it ☹️

Ivefoundgod

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118421365#Comment_118421365

Can only speak to my own experience when I played junior golf (2000-2005ish) and I had the same experience where I did not have an official handicap. The way my club worked was I was a junior member classed as J1 from age 12-14. I played 9 holes(it was a 9 hole course) twice weekly off the junior tees with a group coaching session from the golf pro and there was year long order of merit thing. This would be summer months only. I could play casual rounds during this period but not at weekends and couldn't play in club comps. Typically you would stay in this category until 16 however the club and pro suggested I move onto J2 membership when I was 14 as they thought it would be better for my development, my parents agreed so I moved up. I think if I remember right I had a J1 handicap of 9 though I might be wrong and that was maintained properly with a print out in the clubhouse albeit in the junior section. I don't ever remember playing in open comps using it but we did play inter club comps occasionally. When I moved up to J2 I was given a 'proper' handicap, this meant playing off the mens tees and playing in mens comps on Saturday/Sundays. I think I went from 9 to 14 h'cap though again I could be wrong there, I do remember my father thinking I should have had a way higher handicap. I think I played maybe 2 or 3 mens comps and absolutely hated it, I had no chance of playing to my handicap and was too shy/nervous to ever play well. I think older players resented being stuck with a child basically as well. I'd stopped playing golf regularly by the time I was 16 and pretty much gave up completely by 17. Didn't play for years then and only played the odd casual round in my late 20s until I joined a club again last year at 33. It sounds like that was what happened to blue notes junior friend as well with an unrealistic handicap.

EDIT: on the official handicap question, I think once I moved to J2 I had an official CONGU handicap that wasn't in the junior section in the clubhouse but I don't really remember to be honest. I did play some opens with my dad during that time and had a handicap so I assume it was.

monkeybutter

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118421343#Comment_118421343

it calculates it for me, I can look it up with the app, its easy enough to work out either way

before it was 14 not matter where i played or what tees I played, if the course was harder than another it would just give me a higher handicap, which then transferred to other easier course or tees would not makes sense, now it does

I can see how my handicap was determined in an easy graph and the result is consistent with my ability as that is what I am shooting

I regularly play other courses so its perfect for me

If you want to put in non comp rounds you can, if you don't then that works too

I think its a decent step forward

Seve OB

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118421472#Comment_118421472

ok, well i joined a club as 12 year old in 1989 (am still there). handicap given was 28. chipped away at it over the years, graduated from junior to student to full @ somestage in my 20's, probably around the turn of the century (same time as your pal). i think was still like a25 or something then and the only time it changed was when i played golf and either improved or got the .1 back.

when i was junior we used to get about 12-20 out each week, we played off proper tees from day one. now there could be 60 odd down each week and i do see they have junior tees, so possibly there is something in the divisions which ivefound mentions and they need to go up the ranks in that first. but plenty of juniors do absolutely have full proper handicaps and play in the main comps, but they would be the better golfers.

sure they would have to have proper handicaps to play interclub and junior tournaments, so maybe it was more of a case that he wasn't good enough to get a proper handicap. but none of that is taking away from the fact that he was given a daft and unfair handicap especially when they had his scores on record.

Wombatman

Casual Round Abuse : Fact or Fiction?

When the system was first announced there was some concern that casual rounds would be open to banditry.

Playing at my local club during the week there was some talk that it is being abused. Not sure how exactly as you would have to play a good few rounds for a bad score to come into the equation.

An evidence of abuse out there? Is there a cap on movement like there used to be?

Seve OB

You could knock a good one out in one round and replace it with a poorer one I guess fairly handy. But yes I agree with you to an extent, it’s likely going to still be a reasonable effort that replaces it and it would take a fair element of work to play a lot of bad rounds to drive it up significantly.

soft cap is three shots and hard cap of 5, where the last 2 shots basically go up in half. So you’d really be going up 7 to increase 5

Rikand

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118930549#Comment_118930549

As someone who is on the handicap committee in my club and specifically is the person who looks after casual round administration, there is no abuse in my club. I've ran the reports and compared the excel sheets, there is next to no discrepancy between the scores from people playing competition rounds and casual rounds. The odd case you'll see one person who had one rubbish round in a casual but didnt make any difference to their handicap. I would say there probably are people out there who are doing it, but 99.9% of people are not.

Salvadoor

Beaufort Golf Club

16th/17th April - 18 Hole Stableford

1st Barry Murphy (40) 40 pts

23rd/24th April - Stableford

1st Barry Murphy (38) 48 pts

Seve OB

Here is a flaw with WHS when playing stableford.

If your Course Handicap is 15 then 95% means your Playing Handicap is 14 and you will not have a shot on the index 15 (eg par 3). If you miss a putt for a gross 4 (now you are getting 0 points in the comp) and subsequently pick your ball up instead of tapping in for a 5 the WHS system will then allocate you a score of 6 for handicap purposes.

If you tap in for 5, your adjusted gross score would be one shot less.

I think the concept really needs to be looked at and adjusted. The 95% thing is just messy, cumbersome and unnecessary. I understand the idea is to make it essentially fairer to the single figure handicappers, but the formula used for calculating your score differential could be tweaked to make allowances.

indeed the whole 113 slope number and formulas used to calculate indexes etc need to be changed because they just don’t make sense

elbagarihno

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119040686#Comment_119040686

Totally agree with this point, Playing Handicap should not be seen by players or on their cards etc, it should only be applied when the Competition Committee are working on the results. However, we all know that guy that would complain: "I signed for 48 points, so why is my score only 47??", but from a handicap admin perspective it would make far more sense.

As to the formulas, I think it's hard to argue that they need to be changed or that they don't make sense, this method has been used for years in the US and elsewhere, it pretty well tried and tested.

GandhiwasfromBallyfermot

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119040182#Comment_119040182

I would be pretty embarrassed if I won a competition playing off 40. I think our club applies a max handicap of 28 or something for competitions.

Seve OB

28 is more than enough shots for any self respecting golfer. Give them 54 if they must, but I agree, 28 should be max for any competition

big_drive

I'd agree but would make an exception for any medical issues, etc.

If someone suffered a bad accident or similar I'd let them have whatever was needed for them to enjoy their game and be competitive when playing for a fiver with friends, etc

monkeybutter

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119041894#Comment_119041894

Sure would he not be competing against others with a high handicap so whats the harm, and sure he is improving down to 38

if not, its a stupid move by the club

and is it any more embarrassing to beat someone better than you where you have to be given help no matter what the number, be it 10 20 or 30

dan_ep82

I played regular with a guy who has zero rotation in his lower body, it's a genuine medical issue. He was playing off the maximum handicap at the time which was 28 and it wasn't enough. If he played of 36 or 40 he might win on his best day and it would be fully deserved.

There are other very valid reasons for a higher handicap and there's nothing shameful in it, I'd be more embarrassed to hold that point of view. If they're constantly winning it's up to the system to apply appropriate cuts and as far as I can see it mostly works as it should, you will never stop someone determined to work the system.

Shank Williams

pretty poor form post above re 40 handicapper if that’s his real name

you have no idea of what his situation is

had a 30s handicapper win in my club recently with 43 points which was richly deserved - guy is 100% genuine

then on the flip side president’s last year won buy a guy in mid 30s handicapped who had submitted a grand total of 3 cards to that point and went way under his handicap

Ivefoundgod

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119040686#Comment_119040686

While its a valid point I think if you are concerned about getting your best score for handicap purposes you need to be aware of this sort of stuff and hole out in that situation. At my club when you sign in for a comp you get a printout with your CH and PH on it that you stick to your scorecard so its clearly there that you do or don't have a shot on a hole. I play comps with the intention of putting in a good score to lower my handicap so its something I would make a point of knowing where I don't have a shot for the comp I'm in. Fair enough though that it would be easy to forget when starting out but I think at this stage people have no excuses not to be familiar with the WHS and how playing handicaps work.

Russman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119040686#Comment_119040686

Totally agree with this about the flaw. Its the same in V Par, a "loss" that might only be a bogey still needs to be finished out or you get the higher score.

Russman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119043326#Comment_119043326

You're correct, and I'm not picking an argument at all, but for the majority of golfers, they've been so used to picking up when they've no score on a hole - indeed they were encouraged to in order to speed up play, it was one of the so called benefits of stableford over strokeplay - its hard to get their heads round a new way. Effectively it makes all competitions strokeplay now, if one is concerned about maintaining an accurate WHS index. I'd hazard a guess and say the vast majority of club golfers don't know about this little anomaly or flaw. They may never even notice it in fairness, I only realised after a V Par competition last year when my score on the app didn't tally with what I thought I shot - a couple of times I missed a putt for a "half" and didn't bother with the tap in for a "loss" but was credited with a shot higher on each hole.

Russman

..

OEP

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119044706#Comment_119044706

This really is an edge case though. Think about it - it only effects 1 or maybe 2 holes depending on your handicap. You then have to have a score on those holes that's on the edge, and then finally you need to be unaware of this anomaly. The chances of it happening are quite slim and not worth adjusting a system. Maybe making golfers aware is the best and easiest way to go.

Salvadoor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119042747#Comment_119042747

I just posted publicly available information and made no assumptions about anyone's situation

Ivefoundgod

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119044706#Comment_119044706

Yeah and that's a fair point too. It probably depends on the golfer and age profile too whether they know about it. Personally I'm only recently back playing and have only vague memories of the old system where as I'm fairly up to speed on WHS. What's also a factor is I'm in my 30s, someone playing for years with the old system might not even have a smartphone whereas I login in to the app as soon as I've entered a score on the computer in the clubhouse to see what the differential is. My dad has the app but doesn't really use it at all, just enters his scorecard on the computer after a round and might check it occasionally. I suppose for most golfers that 1 shot isn't likely to make a massive difference until you are looking to get down to single digits and below. I don't think it does make all competitions stroke play though and there are still occasions when you should just pick up your ball. This scenario is very specific for whatever index hole your handicap happens to land on, so if you are a 12, then you need to be keeping an eye on PH for the index 12. If people don't know about this though then it is potentially a problem but they should spot it when entering the card on the computer anyway as it will give the correct score regardless of what you might have put on the scorecard. I suppose how likely is it that you are going to get caught out by this more than once a year.

I don't really know how you would fix this and it is a very unique scenario IMO, to me its up to the player to educate themselves on WHS not on the system to babysit them. Especially if they are that bothered about their index.

Russman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119045176#Comment_119045176

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119045308#Comment_119045308

Ohh I totally agree its not a regular thing. I don't even know how you would adjust the system and its likely not worth it. Communication to make people aware would be key imo. At the same time, for someone in single figures, having an extra couple of shots onto their gross score in, say, a V Par round (for no real reason other than they didn't know to tap in for a loss) could impact their handicap enough to be an issue for them. I agree it'll be a small number of cases though and not worth getting excited over.

Absolutely its the player's responsibility though and its a shame the pandemic hit when the WHS workshops were due to be rolled out. It would have been much easier to get the message across I think.

spacecoyote

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119045605#Comment_119045605

Won't impact the single figure guys though. Got to have a CH of 11 and up for it to start impacting

10 * 95% = 9.5, rounded to 10

11 * 95% = 10.45 rounded to 10

Overall it is a fair point though that someone could pick up on a hole they would have a stroke on under their CH

Seve OB

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119045176#Comment_119045176

Or they could just fix it.

but the powers that be probably don’t even see the problem. Why not? Ask Bill from New York. Bill is a real person who I played golf with recently…….. in a competition!

Bill doesn’t like when his golf ball finds divots on the fairways. I offered him a tee but he was happy just rolling onto a nice lie.

what you have there Bill? “

Stick me down for a 6.

Scratch head, wtf 🤔wasn’t his drive in yer man’s garden there.

next hole

great putt there bill, you nearly got it.

Throw that back to me thanks. Put me down for a bogey.

🤷‍♂️

it’s an American system designed for people who don’t even play proper competition golf. Its like they never even entertained CONGU when they “combined the best bits “