exodus of small investors from the Irish rental sector has reduced the number of available tenancies

JimmyVik

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118089032#Comment_118089032

At the moment i think they are trying to make it as tough as they can get away with.

But a minimum id say they will do the following.

Part 4 now never expires until the tenant decides to leave. Owner wont be able to end the tenancy at the end of a part 4.

Owner can no longer end the tenancy on the grounds that they are selling or need it for a relative. Again, tenancy only ends when the tenant wants to end it. So if you sell you sell with the tenant in it.

Then that limits your potential buyers to other investors, who will then reduce their price because they know this and they will also reduce their price based on what your rent is locked at.

No owner occupier is going to buy a property with a tenant because they wont ever be able to move into it until the tenant leaves. And banks wont give them a mortgage then either because of that risk.

This will surely knock 25 - 50% off the value of your property. Especially as new rentals are being built. Basically if you own an investment property you will be working for your tenant and the government and paying for the privilege :)

Jesus, reading that back it sounds bleak doesnt it. but I think thats where we are headed, and soon.

mrslancaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118089214#Comment_118089214

Sounds like a tenant would have more rights to a property than an owner or their family if that happened, as an owner could never get vacant possesion. Surely that can't be legal. Is that how it works in other countries?

JimmyVik

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118089370#Comment_118089370

I know people who wanted to sell over 3 years ago. One of them has not received a penny in rent in that time and also just had to shell out €900 to fix the hot water tank in the house he hasnt received rent for.

So they would argue that their tenants have more rights to their properties than they do.

Mad_maxx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118089370#Comment_118089370

that you even need to ask those questions illustrates how distorted the narrative from media about the landlord - tenant situation is

tenants have incredibly robust protection in ireland , especially rogue tenants , no country allows deadbeat tenants to get away with what they pull here or for as long

mrslancaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118089451#Comment_118089451

Thats an awful situation and there should be a faster solution to cases like that.

Is that not a bit different though, as the owner will eventually get their property back and the tenants will be gone. In the case of indefinite tenancies mentioned earlier, they could never get access to their property even if they wanted it.

JimmyVik

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118089487#Comment_118089487

Yes thats exactly where we are headed.

mrslancaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118089521#Comment_118089521

That sounds seriously bad for landlords, more meddling won't make things better. Why do you think those changes are coming soon - was it announced somewhere?

cruizer101

I can't see it. To overnight turn all existing tenancies into ones of indefinite length where LL has no option to end them would be a step too far and I would be sceptical of the legality of it, there would definitely be legal challenges.

The government may well make it harder to end tenancies but to try make it impossible I would be very surprised.

DubCount

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118089663#Comment_118089663

Well I can see it. Have you not heard about the housing crisis? Walking over some LL's in the name of progress is not politically damaging. I'm beyond believing that the path of legislation progress is going to be fair or proportional.

AmberKat

I think it very interesting to hear all the people arguing for professional landlords and the efficiency they bring . It just takes a short search online fo show anywhere that has eliminated the small landlord paid the price with skyrocketing rents.

Even is there are efficiencies to be had the gain or saving will not go to tenants but to the profit margins of the corporations.

Saying that they build properties is also incorrect as all they are doing is snapping up the supply coming online mostly blocking first time buyers.

There is a place for both the professional and small landlord, but they need to at least be on an even playing field.

Right now there is zero incentive for anyone to rent out property as a small landlord and that is why there are empty apartments in Dublin that will never hit the market. Vilification and persecution of the small landlord is not the solution to the housing crisis.

I say this as someone who rented for years before buying and who had no rental properties.

black & white

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118088819#Comment_118088819

That's me. Had 2 properties since mid 2000's and fed up of the tax/usc situation. Both were rented out on HAP and 1 tenant left so house going up for sale shortly, the other tenant absolutely destroyed the house and will cost 15Kish to put it back in a decent order. Am giving it to one of the kids to live in with a view to them buying for what's outstanding on the mortgage. I bought as I had no pension but sick of it all..

HBC08

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118065418#Comment_118065418

It's shocking that a sizeable cohort of the population fail to grasp this concept and understand the reality of this sector in Ireland.

deise121

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118055368#Comment_118055368

why don't you be a human being and sell the house to a couple/family rather than an investment firm? your logic makes no sense

The J Stands for Jay

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118088617#Comment_118088617

If they wanted to use a property as their pension and not pay tax, they should have correctly set up their investment.

The J Stands for Jay

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118089707#Comment_118089707

Does the kid have the cash to pay for the CAT on that transaction?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118089032#Comment_118089032

Lots of scaremongering going on here.

Indefinite tenancies only remove the Part 4 element of a lease. If brought in, a landlord will not be able to remove a tenant after 6 years (previously 4 years) without providing a reason. It was a strange law to begin with.

It does not mean a landlord wont be able to end a tenancy. The other usual grounds for termination will still apply and be valid.

Thestart

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118089838#Comment_118089838

please explain how to do this for a non reit landlord entering the market?

The J Stands for Jay

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118089903#Comment_118089903

Set up a self directed pension, and the rent and capital appreciation are not taxed within the pension.

Other option would be to buy shares in an Irish property REIT.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118089451#Comment_118089451

Non payment of rent is grounds for tenancies ending surely?

JimmyVik

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118089998#Comment_118089998

You would think it would be wouldnt you.

Read the hundreds of posts from landlords where the tenant isnt paying rent and has had notice to quit because of that.

Then read the one post where someone was actually successful getting the tenant to leave after years between RTB, courts and eventually had to pay the tenant to leave.

JimmyVik

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118089876#Comment_118089876

The plan is to remove the right of the landlord to require the tenant to quit for sale. Plus a 3 year rent freeze.

Paulownia

Also there are problem tenants, damage to property, people who don’t pay, renters have more rights than owners.

I’m retired living on the state pension and income from one rental property and life is not always easy although my tenants are not the worst, I know of others with nightmare tenants

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118089838#Comment_118089838

The government changed the rules for people who have been doing their taxes one way for decades. I would also like to see more evidence of what you are suggesting and how inheritance works with it. Lots of people leave the management to their children as they get older but then also pay massive inheritance bills while the supper rich avoid it all.

mrslancaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118089980#Comment_118089980

That's good advice for anyone thinking of property investment now but it's not helpful for people who have been landlords for years and now find themselves in a sector with rules changing constantly - and even more changes on the way according to other posters.

I know several people who bought second properties during the mad years as an investment for their pension/retirement, or as a future home for their children. Maybe they were foolish or didn't do enough research, but most bought them in the same way as they bought their principal residence, deposit and BTL mortgage. Maybe they never heard of a self-directed pension and REITS didn't even exist until 2013. A lot changed after the crash, people looking at property investment now are probably more clued-in to the pitfalls.

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118089813#Comment_118089813

What has being “a human being” got to do with realising the best possible return on an investment?

I’m struggling to see why emotion should be a consideration when investing in property.

If there is a possibility of legislation to remove the ability to end tenancies when selling, there will be an unprecedented flood of termination notices issued prior to its introduction. That of course will exponentially exacerbate the rental crises.

Ray Palmer

I don't think they can make people remain landlords. It seems like an impossibility. How would they deal with death and inheritance? It would effectively zone any rental property in Ireland as a permanent rental. It would also cause landlords to put less money into any and all maintenance. Then there is basic constitutional issues on individual land ownership and state interference.

They may however be able to do it on a institutional business level like they do with number of employees in a business means more restrictions. Own 15 rentals then the restrictions kick in on selling with tenants not effected. Highly unlikely they can bring in such things on small landlords with out individual rights being trampled on. Rent restrictions are on shaky ground as is and a potential liability on the state.

mrslancaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118089663#Comment_118089663

Just finished on a call with a landlord who has a house being re-painted etc after the last tenants left. He doesn't want to sell as he has children who might want to live in the house in a few years time, but he's a bit nervous about changes to the rental rules. He's trying to decide if he should, (1) rent to the council on a 10 year lease, or (2) rent privately through an EA who will source tenants and manage the letting. After reading all the posts here I think he should sell, but what do other posters think is his best option?

black & white

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118089870#Comment_118089870

I will double check but my understanding is that a child can receive up to 350k from me over their lifetime. As it stands the house is worth about 10k less than what I paid for it in 2006 (170k) so CGT might not apply. As I said, I will get professional advice when the time comes.

black & white

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118091098#Comment_118091098

It’s a hard one to advise on, if he lets it out he might not be able to get it back when he needs it.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118091098#Comment_118091098

If he lives local enough to the property, I’d advise AirB&B. Do a minimum of 3 nights stay, take at least one day between the next booking to tidy up and do laundry. You’re allowed X amount of days let out without needing planning and you may get some people who want to stay in the property again and would contact him directly the next time

Definitely worth researching.