Spiking.

banie01

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118126849#Comment_118126849

I can point out multiple instances where I have done the opposite. Even over my next to last post.

You really are doing a sterling job of demonstrating the depth of your comprehension 👍

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118126857#Comment_118126857

Of course you can. I'm sure there are plenty of vague weasel words thrown in here and there to give some deniability. I will await you posting a short simple and straightforward post saying something like:

"I banie01 admit that spiking can, and does, occur. It is not impossible and girls who say they were victims of spiking cannot, and should not, be assumed to be liars"

It would clear up all confusion!

banie01

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118126868#Comment_118126868

Confusion?

Donald, the only person confused is you. I refer to multiple earlier posts. I have nothing further to add or indeed clarify unless you wish me to do it in crayon for you?

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118126878#Comment_118126878

Well sure look. Anyone reading these posts can see that I've given you multiple opportunities to clearly and concisely clarify your position and refute what I am saying. There is no point in me asking any further as it is clear that you will not. Others can infer whatever they want from your ongoing attempts to sidestep or deflect or talk about something else.

banie01

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118126915#Comment_118126915

I'm sure they will, I mean it's not like you have admitted your own lack of comprehension on this thread 👍

So rather than dig out my crayons for you? I'll let my posts stand and await the mass of confused posters.

El_Duderino 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118126690#Comment_118126690

I've no interest in arguing about the prevalence of alcohol or drug spiking, mainly because I don't even pretend to have a clue about the prevalence of either. The syringe spiking is a very recent phenomenon and as far as we can tell, the syringe part is total hysteria. What media outlet would turn down an opportunity to stir up anxiety about somethinglike that?

We can say someone was spiked after there's evidence that they were spiked. Someone saying they were spiked isn't enough to conclude they were spiked. Its just a claim unless it's investigated.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118126922#Comment_118126922

Nobody is confused with your posts only yourself. Everyone else can read what they are saying

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118126930#Comment_118126930

Well it is impossible to prove that someone was spiked. So you are setting up the "rules of the game" (for want of a better phrase) so that no victim can ever be believed. Because even if there is a medical test done that detects the presence of something, that does not prove why it is there. It doesn't prove that the victim didn't drug themself! That would be the next line in the "doubters" argument if presented with such a report

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118126856#Comment_118126856

I thought you must have got the wrong end of the stock alright 😂 cos I believe it is naive to imagine it’s not happening. But I think folks sometimes don’t believe things are happening for the best reason that it is not part of their mindset or they haven’t crossed it broadly in their lives. I actually did come across a case right back in 1973 where a friend’s elder teenage brother got injected with some sedative at some event and was taken to hospital. When you’re round as long as me you just know bad stuff happens.

Often when posting I agree to various extents with aspects of what posters have to say, and I sometimes find it construed that I am wholly on one or another side of any one’s argument, which I rarely am.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118127031#Comment_118127031

Yeah I think the attitudes on here are mad. Of course some people might willingly go overboard on a night out and then try to explain away some embarrassment the next day by saying they might have been spiked. But to turn that into a stance where everyone who says they were spiked is automatically branded to be a liar is extremely perverse. People saying that spiking is impossible is very troubling. One would have to assume that they wouldn't advise their daughters to be careful when accepting drinks from strangers or not to leave drinks unattended in a bar/club

El_Duderino 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118126980#Comment_118126980

Well, it's not the next line in my argument. I'd class a sedative in the system as evidence for spiking. In the case of alcohol spiking it would be more difficult to prove as it would take more contextual evidence which might be more difficult to gather.

Syringe spiking would have a puncture wound which would be a pretty significant piece of evidence, wouldn't you agree?

SafeSurfer

Drink spiking does occur.

The recent needle spiking phenomenon has all the hallmarks of mass hysteria. Most of the “evidence” is social media reports which are clearly nonsense, such as those claiming victims have tested positive for HIV the day after an alleged attack.

The most worrying thing is how quickly the mania has gone mainstream, with politicians jumping onboard despite a lack of evidence. The mantra I have heard from politicians in the face of this lack of evidence is “ I believe women”.

What are we to make of statements like this? If a judge came out and said this does it mean that women should always be believed even where no evidence exists? It is worrying and dangerous.

Thousands of women also report being abducted by aliens. Should this also be taken seriously and ministers provide guidelines for keeping safe from alien abduction?

The reality is when people say “believe women” they mean believe anything women say in which they are in the role of victim and men are the alleged perpetrators.

Darc19

Drink spiking certainly does occur, but it's very rare and usually more in holiday settings or in crowded student type settings.

Currently there are very few if any crowded settings and this current hysteria is a social media hysteria based on nothing but hysteria and a couple of unusual cases in the UK.

Student leaders and others should stop pandering to the gutter tabloids that have absolutely zero interest in the truth

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118128122#Comment_118128122

Well people can read your posts. You are "on the same side" as people who say spiking does not happen. Ever. So if you hear of a girl who said she was spiked you automatically won't believe her. You're on some warped gaslighting mission here it seems.

The Salem Witch hunt was when innocent people were put to death based on the ridiculous claims of others. It is completely reprehensible for you to be comparing possible victims of sexual assault to those that made those claims. In your mind someone spiking a victim is apparently as plausible as the perpetrator being a supernatural witch. You should take a long hard look at yourself in the mirror

freshpopcorn

Spiking happens on nights out clearly for whatever reason. It maybe friends messing around with one another, somebody trying to cause harm to others, somebody just simply getting a thrill out of doing it, etc.

However we cannot mix up spiking and people just simply having to much to drink in more common in my experience.

For example a person goes on a night out. They pre drink, drink heavly in the club/pub and they can't function.

If they go and tell there friends/family they've being spiked a clear discussion should be had. Oh, I believe youand not questioning nothing is dangerous in my opinion if somebody doesn't understand their limits.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118128371#Comment_118128371

Freshpopcorn, what you are saying is not what is being said by other posters. Other posters are implying (some are saying it outright) that is someone says they were spiked, then they are lying because spiking doesn't happen.

As I said on thread previously, I know of two girls, both non drinkers and neither of them know or have any connection with each other apart from knowing me, who have been victims of spiking. One actually can't drink for medical/health reasons. Yet when I mentioned this, those two girls were sneered at and dismissed as anecdotes. One poster even tried to "prove" they had to be lying because he himself wasn't able to handle his drink when he was younger. (That's even after me saying that neither of them drink.)

It has happened that some girls make false claim of rape. You don't (I assume, hopefully) then use that to jump to the conclusion that rape is impossible and that all girls who say they were victims of it are liars. Similarly, the fact that some people might claim they were spiked when they just drank too much should not leave one feeling entitled to claim that spiking is impossible and that all girls who claim they were victims of it are liars.

banie01

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118128501#Comment_118128501

Freshpopcorn, what you are saying is not what is being said by other posters. Other posters are implying (some are saying it outright) that is someone says they were spiked, then they are lying because spiking doesn't happen.

Who has said that? Who has implied it?

Quote the poster, and the post that makes such claims, without truncating sentences or removing context.

corner of hells

I've seen two recent "spiking" incidents through work.

First one , Gardai and paramedics were called with the individual being brought to hospital and discharged a few hours later. During a conversation between ourselves, Gardai and paramedics a paramedic commented "it was her last week too" , just blind drunk saying she had been spiked .

Second one , the individual was found in a distressed state on a city street , brought to hospital, referred to the SATU in the Rotunda over a possible sexual assault, she refused to give a statement to Gardai.

Lisha

It makes me very sad to read the pervasive attitudes that spikings are false, never happened, lies etc.

yeah fair enough some people are over drinking and irresponsible. But if someone is drinking and someone slips him/her a double shot or indeed drugs then spiking has still occurred.

I was sober, drinking water only and I lost control of bodily functions and I can’t explain it. Reading this thread has explained to me why I didn’t bother reporting what happened to me to my GP, hospital or the gardai.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118128710#Comment_118128710

The spiking deniers on here never consider that there will be people reading their posts who have gone through the ordeal. They will also likely know someone personal to themselves who has gone through it but who keeps it to themselves and never discloses it.

Your post will be dismissed as lies and you will likely be asked to post a toxicology report with a list of drugs found as some kind of perverse victory to them that your failure to do so is proof of your "lies". It is very sad that there are still people like that.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118128520#Comment_118128520

You've had your opportunity multiple times earlier to simply state that you believe spiking does happen and that girls who say they've been spiked should not be automatically dismissed as liars. You failed to do so when invited multiple time to simply state it. You can backpedal now and do it but it is really too late to save face at this stage.

To Freshpopcorn, just to add that there are indeed posters who are refusing to recognise the difference between those who are victims of spiking and those who say they were after voluntarily overindulging. Those are the ones that are saying/implying that any girl who says she was spiked is a liar who just got too drunk.

banie01

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118128710#Comment_118128710

I'm sorry you had that experience Lisha. I do hope that you've recovered. Your experience is precisely the type that needs to be reported to counter the the prevelant consensus.

You don't owe anyone a report, nor are you wrong for not doing so. Yet your experience is indicative of just why reporting suspected narcotic spiking is important.

The evidence collated to date from hospitals and SA units around the world all points to Drug spiking being rare. Yet the anecdotal evidence says it's more common. Everyone has heard a story of someone claiming being spiked. Yet still the evidence relied upon by legislators (Not that I think further legislation for it is needed in Ireland) and those firming policy has to rely on the actual evidence of such assaults.

That's not meant to discount or demean your experience or even dismiss your belief that you have been spiked.

What it is, is a statement of the simple and unfortunate fact that without reports from people who find themselves in the same situation as you. Without at least confirmation of that toxicology, that your experience whilst awful and disconcerting and probably a spiking? Isn't definitively so and can't be considered as such in any response by legislation or the justice system.

I posted earlier regarding the criminal sanctions and liabilities that someone who spikes a person can face. Spiking is a serious crime in and of itself and it needs to be treated as such.

That people are encountering instances such as yours, and feeling lucky that nothing more serious happened? Is understandable, it may well fell like a lucky escape. Yet the fact is if a substance has been administered to a person? That they have at the very least been the victim of a serious assault. That needs to be reported and evidence gathered to confirm it.

It is true that even with evidence of a narcotic administered, that it may still not be possible to identify who administered it. But it is vital for policy, criminal policing and prediction and legislative action that cases of drugs based assault are identified and evidenced.

Without that evidence any response to claims of this act being widespread? Will be met with the actual collated and available evidence that presents the prevalence of such attacks as rare. That is not dismissive of people who have had experience such as yours. It's rather the awful calculus of provable, countable and verifiable, versus the story and anecdote.

Anecdote is not evidence, that is not to dismiss ones lived experience. Rather to highlight that when it comes to formulating coherent policy response to claims of such attacks?

That it's the availability, quality and quantity of evidence that matters.

And again, that is not to be dismissive of your experience. You have my respect for sharing your story and again I do hope that you are recovering well.

banie01

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118128787#Comment_118128787

So no? You can't present the actual posts to back up your claims?

Thought so.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118128797#Comment_118128797

Imagine being so arrogant and pompous as to dismiss, belittle and cast doubt on someone's ordeal, effectively to their face.

And then people wonder why victims don't report these types of attacks.

banie01

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118128817#Comment_118128817

You are an utter clown.

If you think any diminishment of Lisha's experience is inferred in my post?

Report it.

Otherwise seek an English lesson? Perhaps practice your reading comprehension.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118128829#Comment_118128829

You are happy to put into writing that her experience of getting out of it on her water isn't definitively a spiking. Fair play to you. Jesus must have been there turning the water into wine. Hallelujah. A miracle.

Without at least confirmation of that toxicology, that your experience whilst awful and disconcerting and probably a spiking? Isn't definitively so and can't be considered as such in any response by legislation or the justice system.

banie01

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118128843#Comment_118128843

You may want to read the whole post and grasp its entirety Don.

Yes, I am happy to put it out there that her experience isn't a definitive spiking. You do grasp that without actual evidence of same, no matter how jarring the experience? That it is not? That without evidence of an intoxicant? That no such experience is definitively a spiking?

Not often I've come across such a desperate white knighter. Do you propose the criminal justice system dispense justice on the basis of feelings and anecdotes? The DPP should take a prosecution on feelings?

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118128860#Comment_118128860

What is your purpose, when someone tells you that something happened to them to tell them

1) Anecdote is not evidence

2) the prevalence of such attacks as rare

?

Those are weasel words woven into your post deliberately to cast doubt.

Now you are dismissing what happened to her as "feelings and anecdotes". This is mental stuff altogether.

It is very sad that you would be devoid of any compassion for a victim unless they had enough hard evidence to convict in a criminal case - the standard of which is "beyond reasonably doubt". Nobody is talking about legal standards except for you in order to deflect and justify your own personal opinion.

You are stooping fairly low now to try to accuse someone, who is only pointing out that you can't be automatically calling women - who say they were spiked, and based only on that assertion - liars, of white-knighting. You obviously don't understand the expression.

Another simple question for you (no doubt you will deflect and avoid this one too). Do you absolutely believe Lisha's story that she was the victim of a spiking? I do. Do you?

I'm interested in your answer because up to this you have refused to believe that spiking happens. This will be a big step for you in your progress if you can admit to believing her. Are ya gonna join me on my "white-knighting" journey?

banie01

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118128922#Comment_118128922

Again with the lies.

Where have I denied spiking happens? The full post. You have claimed I've done so multiple times and ignored every single request to clarify.

I will be answering none of your questions until you engage honestly and address those questions asked of you over the last few days.

And again, with the white knighting? Why is it always about women? Anyone can be spiked yet you keep gendering the issue?

Get back on your lame horse, with your tinfoil armour and jog on.

Address the questions asked of you, before you presume to demand answers of anyone.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118128948#Comment_118128948

Yeah yeah yeah. Whatever. I absolutely believe Lisha's story. You don't but don't have the balls to admit as such in clear and concise terms. You'd rather try to talk out of both sides of your mouth at once. You are entitled to do that if you want.

Gender is indeed an issue here. I walked through this with El Duderino. After giving him two almost word-for-word scenarios, one male and one female, he said he believed the male but not the female without further evidence. He later apologised and changed his mind when when it was pointed out to him that they were otherwise the same scenarios. He didn't have an explicit bias against the female so I left it at that. But it shows that he had an implicit bias against her. Even though the scenarios were the same, he assumed the male was not saying he was spiked but the female was saying she was spiked.