Gardai & Cycling

Strumms

I’m not fretting you can be assured :) however in the last 30 or so months...I’ve spent more time on the road then I ever have and it’s therefore become more noticeable to me.... the absolute gormless and careless freak deliberately going through a red almost ploughing through an elderly woman and her pet was what was peaking my curiosity as regards the Gardai and their attitude / resources on this type of matter...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118065780#Comment_118065780

Well placing gardai at traffic lights would not be a good use of resources.

pretty sure if a guard observed a cyclist almost ploughing down an elderly woman, then they would stop that cyclist.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118065808#Comment_118065808

Well in this specific thread Strummer introduced motorists into, and keeps bringing them into it.

If you bring official stats or reports or research or facts into it as impartial metric they aren't interested as they prefer to have their own anecdotal stories. So it's all a bit pointless.

Which wouldn't be an issue if it was only a couple of threads. But this kinda posting is repeated in many threads. To the point at which the mods have to put rules in about it.

In this case he asked about stats on enforcement on cycling offences. They are well documented. But he doesn't want to read them. So what do you want? An unchallenged soapbox.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118065992#Comment_118065992

Maybe you could create a blog or vlog. Seems like you have no shortage of content. Then create a thread linking to it.

BabysCoffee

"Look out for each other" current RSA campaign regarding protecting older people seems to be focussed on driver behaviour rather than cyclists https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRbkuGAScd4

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118065992#Comment_118065992

Many if not most cyclists are drivers and as you have said, will have seen the same for decades. It's not news to anyone.

Charles Babbage

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118063740#Comment_118063740

What evidence? If you stand at a pedrestrian crossing for an hour it is very unlikely that you will see a car driving through a red light it is almost ineviable that you will see a cyclist doing so. If you walk along a footpath you may encounter a park car, but I have never encounted a moving car on a footpath, but have been struck by cyclists. If you stand on a road you may see a car with one light missing, but you will rarely see one with no lights whatsoever, but a large proportion of cylists will not have lights.

Now I am fully in favour of penal measures against lawbreaking motorists, I want this extended to all lawbreakers on the road. I do not expect Gardai to diverty from mergency calls to stop cylists, but I do expect them to do so in the course of their ordinary work, but they do not.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118066260#Comment_118066260

Very unlikely to see motorists breaking red lights?

Are you for real? If you spent 5 mins at the traffic lights you would see one or two, every single light change

Cyclingtourist

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118066260#Comment_118066260

"If you walk along a footpath you may encounter a park car, but I have never encounted a moving car on a footpath, but have been struck by cyclists."

If you see them parked on footpaths (who doesn't see it constantly in Dublin?) how come you've never seen them moving on footpaths? They hardly have vertical landing and take-off capability.

magicbastarder

people seem to be blind to motorists breaking red lights. it's chronic.

a couple of years ago i was out and decided to see how many times motorists would break red lights, and i simply stopped counting. every single cycle of lights on the first 12 junctions i came to, at least one motorist ran a red.

i have been beeped at in the car and nearly rear ended a couple of times because i stopped for a red the motorist behind expected me to drive through.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118066260#Comment_118066260

Lots of stats and reports on red light breaking. From all road users. One thing we are not short of. Is evidence.

These threads seems to have lot of people who ignore the evidence. No shortage of that either it seems.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118066147#Comment_118066147

I hope you didn't see any incidents like this over the past 30 months.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/high-court/truck-driver-who-broke-red-light-and-fatally-struck-pedestrian-is-jailed-1.4281642

If you were the Superintendent in charge of the Garda Road Policing Unit, working on your Policing Plan for next year, what percentage of your limited resource hours would you dedicate to chasing cyclists?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118066260#Comment_118066260

So just to be clear, you're saying that this kind of red light jumping is very rare.

https://twitter.com/righttobikeit/status/1451916909948149760

And this one too, as posted earlier:

https://twitter.com/AlanDub13/status/1451914722522148869

And this kind of red light jumping is something you never see, right? [recorded today]

https://streamable.com/9133ye

Would this be the kind of 'car moving on footpath' incident that you never see? [recorded today]

https://streamable.com/9153sl

So you're saying that these recent events, which both just happened to occur in view of the tiny number of cyclists who record and publish such incidents, are very rare events? Do the maths there on the probability of that being actually true.

And you're also claiming that these 5,000 fines were not issued 'in the course of their ordinary work'?

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/almost-5-000-on-the-spot-fines-issued-to-cyclists-1.3977141

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118065808#Comment_118065808

not one person has claimed that cyclists are never in the wrong. that statement is wrong to the point of a wilful lie.

Strumms

It’s like anything where enforcement is not prolific or existing there is little deterrent...

if I as a motorist leave my driveway I know that there is a potential deterrent to bad driving... penalty points, fines, conviction if injuring of killing someone as a result of disregarding road safety legislation... so I do my best not to speed, or do anything illegal.

the near miss which I spoke about in my OP.... if I’m that cyclist at a minimum I’m stopping and apologizing... he can’t have been oblivious to the close nature of the near miss, and it involving a child maybe 4 or 5. Oblivious to the color of the lights maybe if he was in lala land but everybody is trying to get from A to B safely... I think from my observations and experiences a little more of a deterrent would be welcome as relates to cyclists and how some behave and disregard road safety.... the “bu bu bu but motorists” schtick really doesn’t cut it....dangerous and disingenuous...

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118067673#Comment_118067673

So are the 98% of motorists that break speed limits in urban areas 'doing their best not to speed'? Are the majority of motorists who admit to using their mobile phones at the wheel 'doing their best....not to do anything illegal'?

Your view on the degree of enforcement that applies to motorists, and the degree to which motorists take that enforcement seriously seems to be dramatically at odds with what is actually happening on the roads, where it actually HAS been measured quantitatively, not by personal anecdote.

Motorists are not a different race to cyclists with different ethics, morality and practices. Most cyclists are motorists too. Most motorists break traffic laws on every journey, most likely yourself included, as do most cyclists. The main difference is that when motorists break traffic laws, people die or are seriously injured.

Strumms

Bu bu bu but motorists again Andrew...

thread is actually about cyclists.

either way my concern is what cyclists are doing on their bikes and a wish to see a little more enforcement of road traffic law as relates to them. ;)

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118067260#Comment_118067260

Its not a lie.

I have encountered the same attitude from cyclists on every thread Ive read where someone attempts to raise the issues of cyclists breaking the law, without exception.

Rather then admit there is a problem, you'll be told "oh well, we're not going to stop doing it, so just accept it." or "Its not doing any harm, why does it bother you?"

So cycling through a red light and scaring the crap out of an elderly pedestrian crossing the road "does no harm"?!? Yeah, flashbacks to the "cyclists on footpaths" thread.

When cyclists wilfully refuse to acknowledge the problems with their own behaviour on the roads, or worse - know they break the law but say they're going to continue it anyway, there is simply no point engaging with those of that mindset.

They say “The definition of 'insanity' is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." That's what trying to have a discussion with the apologists for bad cyclist behaviour on Boards is like.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118067956#Comment_118067956

So you want to "ensure safer roads for everyone" by ignoring the reality on the roads, the drivers who kill and maim routinely. I'm honestly not convinced that you're actually committed to the objective of "ensure safer roads for everyone".

You do understand that we have limited Garda resources, so any increased resources chasing cyclists will mean less resources reducing the death toll at the hands of motorists, right? They are intrinsically interconnected.

Pawwed Rig

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118067956#Comment_118067956

That is a bit disingenuous as you posted how good and law abiding you are as a motorist and then when the point is countered you respond with bu bu bu.

The message is clear from the Gardai and RSA in that they will use enforcement to reduce road deaths and injuries. In a world of limited resources that means going after the behaviours that cause road deaths and injuries.

One anecdote about someone somewhere nearly getting hit by a bicycle is not a good way to determine future policy.

Calahonda52

The fun will start when the elec scooters are legal, they are already a scourge on the footpaths where I live.

Thelonious Monk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118068022#Comment_118068022

a scourge how? they're not harming anyone. Cars are the only danger on the roads and footpaths really .

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118067956#Comment_118067956

This isn't a thread about cyclists. This is a thread where some people want to have a moan about a few people they saw on bikes. Its a stupid thread to be honest and if you feel that people on bikes are a big problem then you are choosing to ignore all of the other problems out there simply because you want to have a rant.

If your issue is about the enforcement of road traffic laws then is this to improve safety or because of the chip on your shoulder? The fact that you want to ignore the lack of enforcement against drivers which would drastically improve road safety leads me to think that it is all down to the chip on your shoulder. But I'm guessing that is a problem you don't wish to resolve!

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118067968#Comment_118067968

give us a guesstimate of the scale of the difference between problems caused by motorists and problems caused by cyclists. are the problems caused by motorists behaving illegally or driving unsafely five times worse than cyclists doing the same? 100 times? what's your take?

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118068022#Comment_118068022

Scourge, as in "constantly blocking footpaths with parked vehicles"?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118068202#Comment_118068202

The thread is not about motorists causing problems on the roads. Its about cyclists causing problems on the roads.

But instead of acknowledging there is a problem with cyclists behaviour, you attempt to deflect and make it about motorists causing problems on the roads.

This is what happens on every thread. Thanks for proving my point.

magicbastarder

The thread is about Garda resources being used to clamp down on cyclist behaviour. As the RPU has a set budget, it's simply a question about how to allocate their resources.

Strumms

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118068199#Comment_118068199

Stupid thread a stupid thread awhhh, stupid but you still choose to contribute a couple of paragraphs to it amongst multiple other replies that people have offered..

im not ignoring other problems my friend, I’m simply starting a thread that relates to THIS problem:)... as I think it’s interesting...and discussion worthy.

i see daily enforcement relating to motor vehicles, including several months ago when someone who I know received penalty points....for a borderline offense just bad timing / judgement possibly but cyclists speeding through red lights when pedestrians have right of way and ARE attempting to cross....it’s a negative aspect of road usage, it’s being discussed, not a moan, a discussion :)

magicbastarder

go on so, say you're head of the garda RPU. what split in allocation of resources would you suggest between policing cyclists and policing motorists?

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118068268#Comment_118068268

I acknowledge there is a problem with cyclist behaviour. In the context of all the problems we have on the road, it is a very, very minor issue.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118068387#Comment_118068387

How much Garda resources would you suggest would be appropriate to switch away from that 'daily enforcement' to go chasing cyclists?

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118067956#Comment_118067956

Your last post starts with ... "if I as a motorist leave my driveway ..."

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118068268#Comment_118068268

No it isn't. The OP mentioned motorists in his first post. Every other post he makes is about motorists.

"... ...im on the road just 100-120 kilometers weekly....Are Gardai just focusing on the big bad motorists ? ..."

Flinty997

This is really a thread complaining about the enforcement of motorists. Just using cyclists as smokescreen for that.

Charles Babbage

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118066295#Comment_118066295

Perhaps, but I rarely see a motorist run a light long after it has changed. No problem seeing cyclists do this.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118066335#Comment_118066335

Parking on a footpath requires "driving" for perhaps 5m, and few motorists do this when there is a pedestrians actually there. Plenty of cyclists plan their journey on the footpath and just bulldoze the proper users of those footpaths out of the way

The entire defence of delinquent cyclists seems to be the actions of motorists. It is a bit like people who mug you justifying themselves by not being murderers. Not very convincing.

magicbastarder

if you are claiming people are 'defending' **** cyclists, by them saying their that behaviour is not nearly as problematic as **** behaviour from motorists, then we'll have to agree to disagree on what the word 'defending' means.

the low hanging fruit of policing our roads is tackling motorist behaviour. assholes on bikes *usually* just endanger themselves, assholes in cars endanger everybody.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118069206#Comment_118069206

Will you need to go stand at traffic lights for 5/6 minutes, you will see cars breaking the lights, every single time they change.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118069206#Comment_118069206

Note the swift shifting of goalposts " run a light long after it has changed".

Are you saying it is OK to run a light shortly after it has changed, like the recent examples posted here?

Chiparus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118066260#Comment_118066260

https://www.pri.org/stories/2015-07-18/survey-finds-bicyclists-and-motorists-ignore-traffic-laws-similar-rates

More if you want it,

Pawwed Rig

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118069206#Comment_118069206

I lived in Dublin city centre for a number of years and although I had a car I primarily walked everywhere (work and socialising). I have never ever seen a cyclist 'bulldoze' users of a footpath out of the way. Even the tracksuit brigades cycling in groups didn't do that so I am wondering is it a regional behaviour.

By far the biggest issues relating to safety (as a pedestrian) were taxis, buses, cars in that order. Trucks generally had a high quality of driver. Motorbikes aswell I found were more aware of their surroundings. Among cyclists imo the couriers were the most reckless. Cycling commuters weren't really much of a concern.

magicbastarder

The entire defence of delinquent cyclists seems to be the actions of motorists. It is a bit like people who mug you justifying themselves by not being murderers. Not very convincing.

to adapt your analogy to make it more apt, it's like when neither murders nor muggings are investigated by the gardai, and then someone says 'why don't we prosecute muggings?' and others react with 'muggings? what about the murders?'

because if you go out and run a red today or break the speed limit, i suspect there is a very significantly lower chance than 1 in 1,000 of being caught. and part of the problem is that road safety to a certain extent seems to be regarded as 'solved'; road deaths are bumbling along at a near historic low (bar the emergency, we haven't seen levels like this since the late 20s), but the issue is that looking at it in terms of fatalities alone is only seeing part of the picture.

anyway, bad behaviour by drivers has a societal cost. bad behaviour by cyclists doesn't.

Cyclingtourist

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118068908#Comment_118068908

As someone who both drives and cycles (probably more of the later) I don't agree it's a 'very, very minor' issue. Cyclist's behaviour has IMO gotten a lot worse since the start of Covid and it. as well as that of people using electric scooters, has become a major issue for pedestrians in Dublin especially.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118069941#Comment_118069941

The data of deaths and serious injuries on the road suggests it is a very, very minor issue.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118069882#Comment_118069882

Some people don't seem to get the idea of risk-based prioritisation. When a murder happens, the police throw substantial resources at it, teams of detectives and more, given the seriousness of the issue. When my car gets broken into outside my house, they don't throw substantial or any resources at it. And by and large, we all get this.

For some reason, some people struggle with comprehending the similar approach to roads policing, with the bulk of the resources focused on the bulk of the danger - motorists.

Cyclingtourist

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118069960#Comment_118069960

That's because 'data' doesn't include near misses and injuries that don't require hospital treatment. Just because say elderly pedestrians (other vulnerable people as well) feel intimidated by bad behaviour on footpaths and crossings doesn't appear in some data bank doesn't make it a 'very, very minor' issue.

Confession time: As a cyclist I occasionally cycle on paths and as I've posted previously have been known to break red lights, I always do so with care and attention to others, something I see others on bikes, e-bikes, e-scooters, skateboards, etc. not doing everywhere I go in Dublin. This problem is getting worse and dismissing it as minor isn't helping.

magicbastarder

i think it's a mathematical certainty that we'd see an increase in bad behaviour from people with vehicles; if there are people using scooters now who previously would have taken the bus/wouldn't have cycled, that's adding a new cohort of people to the roads in charge of a vehicle with the capability to be dicks.

and anecdotally, there are also people driving now who previously would have used public transport, but have been avoiding PT because of covid. i wouldn't make a guess as to how big this effect is though.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118069998#Comment_118069998

You're right, data doesn't include near misses and injuries that don't require hospital treatment, whether caused by motorists, cyclists or pedestrians - which by definition indicates that those incidents are very minor in nature.

Is there any reason to think that such incidents would not be reasonably proportional to the incidents that are recorded?

Cyclingtourist

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118070032#Comment_118070032

One straight off reason I can think of is that say for instance you receive a 'minor' injury from a bicycle as opposed to a car you are a lot less likely to pursue it in the courts with a cyclist than with a motorist who is insured and this encourages/requires medical assessment, at the very least, and probably reporting it to the Gardai as part of the legal process. Thus it becomes a 'statistic' whereas with a cyclist there's not even a number plate to remember so most victims of collisions with cyclists will just tell their friends about it and that's the end of the matter.

Flinty997

You seem to be arguing that minor things are not minor but are not recorded because they are minor...

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118070126#Comment_118070126

Have you ever seen anyone quoting such statistics here or elsewhere - minor insurance claims against car drivers that weren't reported in Garda or RSA statistics?

Cyclingtourist

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118070250#Comment_118070250

No, I'm arguing that 'minor' things where bicycles are involved are less likely to be recorded than 'minor' things where cars are involved. Minor is subjective anyway, some 'minor' injuries get people tens of thousands in the Irish courts.