Acceptable Covid death rates

Mad_maxx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118091277#Comment_118091277

didnt say " nobody "

you should withdraw your accusation that i lied , nothing i said supports that charge

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118090705#Comment_118090705

Well you are going to have to be a little more precise with what you are asking. You are bouncing around the place and pulling in two different directions from very general (members of the public) to very specific (Cathal Jackson, whoever he is).

Does this "Cathal Jackson" have personal responsibility towards members of the general public generally present on Harcourt St then the answer is likely no. (He will have certain obligations to the general public in terms of his own property under public liability. For example, if he personally owns a building and there is a railing outside which is wrapped in razor wire then he would be liable for damages when a member of the public cuts themselves on it). But that is not what is in question here. What is in question here in this example is the responsibility of the business Copper Face Jacks who will have a legal duty of care towards its customers and could be liable under the general tort of negligence for issues related to those customers attending events there. This would be predominantly a civil issue. The people queuing outside are queuing in order to attend the venue and that duty of care exists. It is not wiped out by some vague claim that the bouncer might not have let in a specific individual anyway. They are organising an event and therefore have responsibility.

If CFJ are running an event, and something happens while people outside the venue while people are waiting to get in, then they would be potentially liable if they neglected to take reasonable measures to ensure safety. They cannot say to a judge that "Well Judge, yes, 10 people were injured when there was a big crush outside when people tried to rush the door, but it happened at 2 minutes to 8 in order to take advantage of our 'first 100 people get free drink for the night offer' and we weren't due to open until 8 so we didn't bother taking any safety measures in place outside at all, or even having a plan or procedure or training our staff how to manage crowds - but as I said, 2 minutes to 8 so all good yeah?". That is one aspect (and doesn't even get into the talk about the fact that the business would likely own the land under which said crush might have happened ... even though you might see it merely as a footpath). Were an injured party to take such a case after injury, then the case would be taken against the business although they might potentially join an owner to the proceedings depending on the circumstances.

The other aspect that they would have would be under general public health provisions and the terms of their licence. Would they be criminally prosecuted from this angle? The answer is likely no. The reason for this would be that a much more simple "punishment" for them acting the bollix in this regard would be an objection against the periodic renewal of their licence. You may or may not be aware that a bar (Berlin) famously had its licence renewal application denied earlier in the year. It is very simple to object against such a renewal and an objection from a Sergent carries a huge amount of weight.

I anticipate you will come back with going on how you, in your legal expertise, would use the "bulletproof" excuse that CFJ could just claim that people standing outside its premises in a line were just random people who simultaneously all decided to pause their evening strolls at the same time and in the same location. That would have about as much legal impact as the fellas who try to speak as Gaeilge to a guard when the guard is arresting them for being drunk in the belief that they will have to be released. Any messing would be bypassed by just doing the simple objection against licence renewal.

If you have ever tried to enter such a venue you might have noticed that they tend to have barriers or other systems in place to help control crowds outside their premises. They will often also have "stewards" monitoring such queues. Next time you see such a system in place, stop and consider why it is that they might be going to all that bother rather than just having a few bouncers at the door.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118091398#Comment_118091398

"In London, they dont even mask up in shops or on the tube"

That suggests to me that nobody is wearing masks in shops or on the tube. It is an untrue statement.

titan18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118092135#Comment_118092135

From what I've been told by friends there, it's 50/50 on the tube at this stage. It's mandatory but not enforced so lots don't bother. Same in shops

Fred Astaire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118091277#Comment_118091277

I've been in London a number of times in the past few months, both with work and for recreation.

It's about 50/50 on the tube.

Shops it's at most 95/5 not wearing/wearing. It's honestly quite odd to see someone wearing a mask in the shops because they are so infrequent.

Mad_maxx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118092135#Comment_118092135

i dont care what you think it suggests , you still misquoted me and effectively accused me of lying

dublin49

The way our health service is significantly skewed in favour of those that can afford private health insurance suggests Irish society pre covid already accepted deaths in those that cant pay,otherwise treatment would be based on need not resources.

The poor are the victims in the scenario above,the immune deficient are cohort vunerable in the Co vid scenario.

My point being our society is well rehearsed in accepting unfair health outcomes and perhaps the Covid scenario is just another example of this.

Secondly I would think in general most people have relaxed their guard and it will be impossible to rediscover the initial vigour and cohesion that Irish society displayed in the first few months,I think the jenie is out now and the Government are loathe to try and lead where they now suspect most people won't follow.

Mad_maxx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118092327#Comment_118092327

its those in the middle who need to neglect their health , the less well off have medical cards and attend the local GP clinic much more frequently

Fandymo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118091967#Comment_118091967

TLDR: the jist I got is you are talking absolute nonsense. No one got crushed, injured or anything similar. Free drink offers are banned in Ireland also. Your making up nonsense.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118094230#Comment_118094230

You were jumping around from very specific to very general. So I tried to give you a sense of overriding responsibility of the business. An entity which organises an event is responsible for it and that responsibility is not restricted to some pedantic, and nonsense, argument about "opening hours". It might also surprise you to learn that Gardai have, in the past, objected to the renewal of licences because of patron behaviour after they leave a venue when it closes for the night. There is not much more I can do on that front apart from lay out the facts.

You may consider the actual government guidelines relation to ingress:

QUEUE MANAGEMENT

Queue management will form an important element of the event plan. Queuing system can be managed by stewards, venue staff, or event workers. Ground markings and signage can also be put in place where possible to encourage social distancing while queuing although this may not always be possible with increased capacities. Facemasks should be worn in all queues, as these are mandatory apart from when dancing, drinking or eating in the venue.

If you want to go of on some freeman-of-the-land-oath-guard-not-wearing-his cap argument then you are entitled to do so. There is no point in me arguing with you because it is nonsense. I only tell you reality and fact. It is not a subjective, or debatable, issue

skimpydoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118094768#Comment_118094768

From photos taken on the night Coppers reopened the majority in the queue were not wearing masks.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118095850#Comment_118095850

Yeah. 100%. Those people were there queuing up to get into the venue. It's not an excuse for the venue to claim that "it was before we opened the doors". Because the people in the queue were queuing up specifically to get into the business.

The business has a duty of care to its patrons. The reason for the mask wearing regulations is to protect public health. So, from a theoretical point of view, CFJ has a duty of care to others in the queue where it must put in reasonable measures to make sure that people are following those guidelines.

Goldengirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118082753#Comment_118082753

This would have been The Black Death but for lockdown and our ( somewhat limited but still better than the Middle Ages) knowledge of hygiene measures and viral transmission.

My son is immunocompromised from treatment for an autoimmune disease that he developed this year, it is believed post Covid infection.

While I can accept that we can't save everybody, I will not accept that it is his time or any other person's time to get a preventable infection just so other people, who can do most things already, want to live their lives the way they want to and to hell with everybody else.

That is not how the world works. Society is governed by rules even at the most basic level so that the more violent or aggressive don't kill and eat the rest.

We are not out of this yet.

Mark Paul needs to go back to his cave.

skimpydoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118095919#Comment_118095919

Mark Paul needs to do a Rip Van Winkle in his cave. Sorry to hear about your son and I know what he is going through as I am in the same boat and please god that boat is not the Titanic.

skimpydoo

P.S, Well said Goldengirl.

Goldengirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118095947#Comment_118095947

Yes Mark Paul is the worst sort of sxxx stirring journo who probably would not get a mention except he posts vile stuff like this. Pulitzer prize winner he is not.

I hope my son and other young people in a similar situation did not read that article. Sorry you had to S.

He got his extra dose the other day.

He goes out now and again so am glad he has had it now.

He's pretty devastated by this diagnosis though, as are we all, when he should be out working and enjoying life.

Hopefully all will be well and wishing you well too, skimpydoo.

Rket4000

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118095850#Comment_118095850

What would be the logic of them wearing masks outside (where transmission is less likely) when they're going to be inside, dancing (and whatever else happens in nightclubs!) while not wearing masks?

Goldengirl

Read the post. That was a qualified comment and not what you have just said.

Either you don't understand it, don't agree with it or just want to comment, but no need for nasty personal remarks attacking me.

What you said was uncalled for and I don't want to talk to you anymore.

Risteard81

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118096164#Comment_118096164

No qualification is credible. It could never have been the Black Death under any circumstances whatsoever.

Therefore your remarks were utterly repugnant to sensible debate.

skimpydoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118096016#Comment_118096016

He was one of the journalists who was for opening up last Christmas and look where that got us.

Lumen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118096105#Comment_118096105

The Black Death mortality rate was approximately equal to the youth mortality rate (chance of dying before adulthood) at the time.

COVID mortality rates are approximately equal to youth mortality rates now in OECD countries.

The difference is that we now have much greater expectations of survival, and are therefore prepared to take considerable measures to prevent even one percent of deaths amongst mostly old people and mostly temporary debilitation amongst younger people.

Goldengirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118096181#Comment_118096181

Thanks Lumen. That's what I was getting at.

Beasty

For a totally unacceptable attack on another poster Risteard81 infracted and threadbanned

freshpopcorn

So OP you want people to clean there hands and that's fair enough.

You also mention Facemasks and social distancing.

What situations do you want these to continue in and for how long?

Because from my understanding Covid is here for a long time to come.

So, for example do you want Coopers to be open or closed?

If you want it opened do you expect people to stay 2 meters apart the whole time or what when there trying to hook up.

Similar to concert venues, etc.

Similar with public transports, shops, essential, household visits, etc, etc.

I'm a bit lost at what you want really.

skimpydoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118096296#Comment_118096296

I think Face masks should be worn on all forms of transport and also in crowded places until we know how we can handle Covid.

Coopers should be open but not with as many people inside as I have been there when its crowded and god knows what that will translate to when we add Covid in the mix.

I want society to be as open as it can be during a pandemic, ie safely and securely. Long queues should be discouraged as should packed shops.

Some people who have been vaccinated are acting as if they are totally safe now. This is not the case and they should take extra precautions as they go out and about trying to live their daily lives.

freshpopcorn

Thanks for the reply @skimpydoo.

I'm in my late twenties and people my age aren't really afraid of Covid to be honest. I'd include people well into their forties in this category.

Strangely enough I don't think people think it's safe but the attitude really is it's worth the risk now because it just seems endless at this stage and people feel we may as just try and get back to normal.

skimpydoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118096453#Comment_118096453

I admire your honesty and I am not afraid of Covid I just don't want to die yet. Some people might think its worth the risk and I just hope they don't have to go back home to someone who is a immune compromised.

freshpopcorn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118096464#Comment_118096464

I do understand that and I do think those who have vunerable family members are being a bit more careful or just having no contact with them.

However if I'm being really honest I know a few people who'd be highly at risk if they caught covid they don't seem to care anymore either.

I think a lot of people have given up and some of those who do care You'd see people making a big deal about washing hands, masks, etc and you see them out and about with the same well worn mask half on and touching everything and bumping into everybody.

skimpydoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118096503#Comment_118096503

The sad thing is that the government view now is that it's all about personal responsibility. This means that when things go tits up as they are starting to right now, the government can say it's not our fault it's you're for not acting responsibly. The government legislation which stated how many people can enter a venue or attend an event has lapsed and it has not been renewed yet. This should not have been allowed to happen.

freshpopcorn

@skimpydoo I do think people have really given up to be honest.

I think there's a generally feeling out their now that we could have years upon years of restrictions ahead of us now and we may as well just get on with it now instead of waiting.

skimpydoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118096585#Comment_118096585

If that's the case I will cocooning for a lot longer than I thought I would be.

PeadarCo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118096592#Comment_118096592

You are better off talking to your GP or another medical advisor to see how to best deal with the situation.

As frustrating as the situation is, people in Ireland have been incredibly accommodating when it comes to dealing with Covid 19. People have put up with incredibly tight restrictions by and large with very little complaint and the vaccine take up has been phenomenal. Compare Ireland to places like the USA where even something as simple as wearing a mask is controversial.

But the problem is Covid is not going away and we have to learn to live with Covid like we do with other diseases such as the flu. A huge part of that is the use of Vaccines and associated boosters. The thing is everyone has their limits. You can't expect people to be as obliging as they have been. At this stage if you think certain things like nightclubs are unsafe etc you are effectively saying you want them banned. You can't keep restrictions indefinitely at some point you either have allow the impacted businesses to open or just outright ban them. The advantage of banning them is that it allows the people now out of work a chance to move on with their lives by retraining/doing something else. You can't hold people in limbo indefinitely. That's incredibly unfair and disrespectful to the people impacted by the business closures.

To go back to the question of the thread. There is a acceptable risk for everything we do and everyone's risk reward calculation is different for a wide variety of reasons. Covid is no different. Everyone's risk perceptionwhen it comes to Covid is different. Its up to society at large to make the decision at a societal level.

Field east

It’s of interest to note the various communications , including some on Boards that refer to how good we have been in our compliance re uptake of vaccines, mask wearing , keeping appropriate distances, etc etc as if we are doing it to comply with government advice/regulations/laws and that we don t really have to do it if we do not want to. Or we could comply under massive protest/ begrudgingly, etc, etc.

ARE WE NOT DOING THESE THINGS FOR OUR OWN SELF INTEREST, TO PROTECT OURFAMILY MEMBERS, FRIENDS , ETC..

The government gust gives us the framework as to how to achieve the above because we are not capable of doing it ourselves if left to our own devices.

so this thing of “Are’nt We Great’ does not stack up with me

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118090465#Comment_118090465

De facto optional on public transport. Lots of the staff don't wear them and when I was there a week or so ago I noticed fewer and fewer people were wearing them on the tube than was the case when I was there a couple of weeks ago. Thank God.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118090499#Comment_118090499

Didn't have lockdowns. I lived in Sweden earlier this year. That's a lie promulgated by the msm.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118090723#Comment_118090723

How long did it take to eliminate smallpox?

@PeadarCo

@PeadarCo

"...The thing is everyone has their limits. You can't expect people to be as obliging as they have been. At this stage if you think certain things like nightclubs are unsafe etc you are effectively saying you want them banned. You can't keep restrictions indefinitely at some point you either have allow the impacted businesses to open or just outright ban them. The advantage of banning them is that it allows the people now out of work a chance to move on with their lives by retraining/doing something else. You can't hold people in limbo indefinitely. That's incredibly unfair and disrespectful to the people impacted by the business closures..."

I don't think anyone has said they want nightclubs banned or business closed again. Or for the less vulnerable not to go to them. I don't think that is what is being said at all.

From my point of view, I am high risk and I live with someone who is very high risk. So I definitely won't be attending nightclubs or the like, and being restricted in that way doesn't bother me, as I accept that as part of taking "personal responsibility".

But there are some things high risk people can't avoid doing where they can't avoid coming into contact with others - "cocooning" is not a viable permanent way to live for those who are high risk, either. You can't hold people in limbo indefinitely.

For instance, even though I am high risk (and my employer is aware of this), I am expected to return to work in an environment where I know my less vulnerable colleagues have been engaging in high risk behaviour, and masks are not mandatory. I feel this poses a significant risk to me, that I don't have much control over. I can't quit my job, I have bills to pay, like anyone else.

Before I am accused of it - I'm not asking anyone, including my colleagues, to stop going to their friends homes, or to nightclubs, or doing anything else they want to do that is safe for them, and I don't expect them too. But what I don't think is unreasonable to expect that when they are not doing those things - e.g. at work, or in shops or other public places, or on public transport, if they continue with taking some precautions to protect the more vulnerable they will come into contact with.

For instance, that person that was out dancing in Coppers on Saturday night, could be sitting next to a vulnerable person on the bus on the way to work that week. Or face to face dealing with them as customers in a shop, or simply standing too close in a checkout line in Tescos with their mask under their nose.

In these "daily life" situations, I see no reason why it should be such hardship for the less vulnerable to continue with masks, hand sanitising and yes, maintaining social distancing. If these are the only "restriction" the less vulnerable are being asked to place on themselves, I don't think its too much to ask.

That's all.

Fandymo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118096708#Comment_118096708

The government should govern the country. Not nanny us, we need less nannystateism, not more!!

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118097370#Comment_118097370

Bit for how long? People have been doing it for almost two years. It was supposed to be 'just two weeks to flatten the curve'.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118097444#Comment_118097444

Its been 19 months, so a bit of a ways to get to 2 years, yet. And to answer your question, for however long it takes.

How long to you expect high risk people to continue living in a locked down state? Permanently?

Everything is open. Do what you like. You're not being asked not to live your life. Just to show a little consideration for others while you're doing it.

Danno

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118097485#Comment_118097485

Yes, permanently. If that is what is required.

I cannot swim, I stay permanently out of bodies of water. That is what is required for me not to drown.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118097485#Comment_118097485

5 months isn't a bit of a ways. Remember that it was originally "just two weeks".

What does 'for however long it takes' mean? Until covid is eradicated? Not going to happen. Until everyone had got booster shots? Not going to happen.

I am being asked not to live my life. NPHET are restricting my life, and have been restricting it for close to two years.

It's for those people to decide what to do. If they want to stay inside for years then that's their choice. But a lot of us want to live a normal life. That's a life free of masks, social distancing, vaccine passports etc.

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118097640#Comment_118097640

Ah come on, 5 months certainly is well short of 2 years. At least accept that much. Ask any frontline healthcare worker whether November+December+January+February is a long time.

Strumms

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118085277#Comment_118085277

We don’t...

we have laws, regulations and restrictions as regards roads usage.

Accidents cause road deaths...

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118096729#Comment_118096729

yes they did.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118097689#Comment_118097689

It's not in the grand scheme of things.

@Gortanna

@Gortanna "Remember that it was originally "just two weeks"?

Yes, I do. But that was back in March 2020, when no one had any real clue what Covid was, or what we were facing into, and not just here in Ireland but the whole world. Kind of pointless bringing it up the whole two weeks thing, in hindsight.

A lot of progress has been made in 19 months, and I don't believe this pandemic will last forever - or that covid will be completely eradicated. But its too soon to toss in the towel, its not over yet, and for however long it takes means exactly that - for however long it takes. I'm sure the scientists who've worked hard to find answers since the start of this are very very sorry they can't deliver the definite "end by" date you seem to be expecting.

You may wish the high risk groups would just lock themselves in behind closed doors so you can get on with living your normal life, but they have a right to live as close to a normal life as possible as you do, and that includes going to work to earn a living, going to shops when they need to, using public transport - so unfortunately for you, the Government and NPHET has a duty of care to all its citizens, not just the less vulnerable, so you may find yourself being inconvenienced for some time to come.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118097766#Comment_118097766

Your saying it again and again doesn't make it true. A few businesses closed. That's it. Nothing at all compared with what went on here and in other countries.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118097444#Comment_118097444

in the case of masks in public, for as long as needs be, it will improve the productivity of the work force at least by having less colds etc.

social distancing probably not long more, all though if someone asks you to move away from them then of course do the decent thing and do it and don't be one of those.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118097745#Comment_118097745

"Accidents". Not people speeding, etc. Come back to me when you're ready to be serious. Honestly the most ridiculous comment so far. **** me. 🙄

We all accept a certain level of risk with everything. Covid now joins that list.

We have a number of flu related deaths each year, we accept it, we don't have mandated lockdowns every winter even though it would save people from catching it and dying. We accept the level of risk because preventing it costs too much.

Wake up lads.