Why are there so few state owned / state run schools in Ireland?

Sleepy

It's very, very simple: our state failed us by out-sourcing the education of our children to the Catholic Church in the early years of it's formation.

Once the systematic abuse of Irish children by religious orders became apparent, Fianna Fail failed in it's duty of care to Irish children rather spectacularly by allowing (the then Minister for Education) Michael Woods, a devout Catholic with links to Opus Dei and the Knights of Columbanus to effectively absolve the Catholic Church of it's crimes by limiting their liability for the compensation of their victims of abuse to only €128 million. (A scheme projected to cost Irish tax-payers €1.35 billion!) and to sign this agreement on our behalf without even putting it to cabinet for approval.

That had the potential to be a pivotal moment in Irish society imo: the state should have seized the school buildings and lands as the Order's contribution to the redress scheme, removed their representatives from the Boards of Management and used the opportunity as the basis for secularising our entire education system.

Religion has no place in any educational institution (beyond a seminary or madrasa etc. with the proviso that only grown adults may enrol). Faith is the antithesis of education.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118144720#Comment_118144720

Yes, I'm not religious at all and would prefer secular education but the comments about children being indoctrinated like in nazi Germany and North Korea are just offensive. And deranged.

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118144974#Comment_118144974

Yes, in so far as they accept children from any faith background, and teach about all of them.

But you may like to find out what non-denominational actually means: Try Googling "non-denominational Church Dublin" - you may be surprised by the results.

Flinty997

Agreed huge opportunity missed.

Even if you think the church isn't all bad. Its unescapable that the church hierarchy, has largely acted in bad faith (ironically) since.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118144992#Comment_118144992

Well there is. We've just become immune to it. We don't take it seriously.

That its largely unsuccessful is a different issue.

For others though, they get upset about it.

zedhead

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118145102#Comment_118145102

This 100%. This is what should have happened. And not just for schools and education but also hospitals too. We should not be in a position where religious orders have any input into standard education and medical care.

If you want a religious ethos in your childrens education then it should be at your own time and expense.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118090354#Comment_118090354

The standard bullshít response 🙄

Parents everywhere are NOT free to set up a school.

Department of Education will not sanction a new school in an area unless there is a shortage of places - and even then, they can just choose to extend the existing school(s)

So unless they're millionaires and can afford to fully fund building the school, running the school and paying teachers themselves, no, they can NOT just set up a school.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118138970#Comment_118138970

ETB only have a handful of primary schools - and the religion syllabus they use was written by the catholic church!

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118145102#Comment_118145102

Religion has no place in any educational institution (beyond a seminary or madrasa etc. with the proviso that only grown adults may enrol). Faith is the antithesis of education.

Many of the "best" schools in the world are run by religious organisations, or were originally founded by such an order. A religious group can provide the structure and service of teaching, without it being a mouthpiece of it's religious agenda, and even if they are promoting their religious beliefs, in most cases, students (with parental consent) can avoid that focus, by not attending religious classes, or ceremonies.

Faith might be the antithesis of education, although I don't believe it actually is. Strict adherence to dogma is the antithesis of education, and that's a different scenario entirely. It's also something you can find in non-religious schools with their own agendas/biases to push.

I'd place my primary and secondary schooling as being quality education. The Marist Brothers did an excellent job. Yes, there was some importance placed on the Catholic religious beliefs, along with the symbolism being present in most rooms, but it wasn't forced on us. All the material taught in other schools was taught there, and there was nothing being removed for religious reasons. God knows, I've heard enough complaints from friends who didn't go to religious schools about the focus of the schooling, and the quality of teachers.

I don't have the hate that some here seem to have about religious organisations. I don't like religion, and I'll be happy to see it removed from society entirely, but I'd like to know that there is something replacing it.. and not just the mad rush to tear things down, without serious consideration for the future.

ahappychappy

I am very fortunate to have managed to get my kids into ET primary and secondary. ET are multi denomination, they teach children the fundamental aspects of the most popular faiths, the history of them, significant aspects of the belief system and mark/acknowledge them - so the school may do some art reflecting the colours and lights of Diwali, a crib outside reception, children of the Muslim faith celebrating Eid etc.

When it came to looking at secondary schools back in 2018, I was really frustrated at the lack of the "multi" in the so called "multicultural" ETB schools. We visited three ETB schools - each spoke about the class assembly's - in a room full of bibles and catholic ideology - they spoke about pupil recognition how they opened with a prayer but were free to abstain - not really inclusive. I know I am one of the very fortunate parents who had choice - what I would ask to those who say Catholic schools are inclusive is - opening your doors is not the same as to feeling equal, not "othered"- how would you feel if your child was educated in a different faith system- e.g. Muslim and the thread of the religion intertwining into other lessons. Imagine your child (not of the faith) praying five times a day or abstaining for praying five times a day - that may help you understand. My recollection of primary was prayer first thing, before lunch, after lunch and end of day and every celebration involving a mass. Listening to stories of hell as a non believer etc, the local priest popping in to give a talk about the saint of the day!

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118143753#Comment_118143753

this is completely wrong, they are funded by the state but privately owned, the Dept of Education does not hire and fire teachers the appointees of the local bishop do...

also there are many areas where certain schools are almost exclusively white, while other schools in the area (those less well regarded, and/or more recently established) have mostly non-white pupils.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118143834#Comment_118143834

There are no non-denominational schools in Ireland. ETs are "multi-denominational". Believe it or not, every school in Ireland funded by the state must officially have a "denomination".

Hotblack Desiato

A religious group can provide the structure and service of teaching, without it being a mouthpiece of it's religious agenda

has that ever happened though?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118145775#Comment_118145775

Depends on what kind of mouthpiece it's being. Is it dedicated towards indoctrination of their faith, or simply making people aware that they exist.

As I said before, I went to Marist Brothers schools, and while the religious aspect was present, it wasn't forced on us. Nor were the religious attitudes about homosexuality, abortion, etc promoted. That's what I meant about being a mouthpiece of it's religious agenda.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118145723#Comment_118145723

"... My recollection of primary was prayer first thing, before lunch, after lunch and end of day and every celebration involving a mass. Listening to stories of hell as a non believer etc, the local priest popping in to give a talk about the saint of the day..."

Its seem very common in these threads for people to have attended a school more religious than something out of the 50s. I'm not saying it didn't happen, because it definitely did. It just that I don't think it was as common as you'd think from these forums. But its more akin to my parents experience than my generation and I'm no spring chicken.

But certainly if thats your experience, you could not but be effected by it. I'm not dismissing that.

Sleepy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118145704#Comment_118145704

I don't necessarily disagree that some schools founded and run by religious orders happen to be excellent. That said, allowing any organisation whose primary goal is to increase the number of adherents to a belief system which flies in the face of logic and reason to have control of the institutions in which we educate our young is illogical. The Patrician Brothers school I attended was academically excellent but the academic education was delivered with a large side-helping of Catholic Indoctrination and anti-Abortion rhetoric.

Opting out of religious instruction wasn't an option then in the 90's and even today, despite the community college my own kids being under the patronage of Dublin and Dun Laoghaire ETB, opting out of "religious education" (an oxymoron if ever I heard one, and a curriculum which is still dominated by Catholic teaching) still isn't a viable option unless parents are free to collect their child from the school for the duration of the classes. That's before we even get into the subject of the opportunity cost of wasting 4 hours a week that could be spent on a worthwhile topic...

Your last paragraph is intriguing. If you think that we shouldn't be removing religion from schools or society without having a replacement for it (humanism perhaps?), that implies that you believe there's a inherent value to religion. I'm struggling to see what this is? Marx's "opiate of the masses”?

Flinty997

One idea that you're more likely to get people who see their work as vocation, and thus approach it differently, holistically even, rather just a job. Applied to lots of industries, education, health, social service.

Certainly debatable, and can be replaced with professionalism but often isn't. Peoples personal experiences will vary obviously.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118146157#Comment_118146157

Good post.

Your last paragraph is intriguing. If you think that we shouldn't be removing religion from schools or society without having a replacement for it (humanism perhaps?), that implies that you believe there's a inherent value to religion. I'm struggling to see what this is? Marx's "opiate of the masses”?

I do think religion provides a structure for people to learn many of the basic morals and a sense of good behavior. At least, it provided a foundation for my own sense of morality, which my parents built on (with some overlap), but considering how much time I spent in school vs learning from my parents, the school teachings had a greater impact overall. At least, I have very good memories of the majority of my teachers, and the lessons they imparted that weren't directly related to the school curriculum. In my experience, Christianity, for all it's many faults, does tend to attract a lot of very gentle people to take up roles in teaching.

I would feel that society today is hell-bent on giving people freedom to think or do just about anything under the law, but while also, pushing (what I would consider) short-sighted initiatives, such as the recognition of gender theory and trans beliefs. There is a wide range of "woke" beliefs that have made their way into education, and depending on the country involved, those ideas are being taught to children. I'd see some value in religious schools, because they're unlikely to be teaching these social movements as fact, when they're still very much new ideas that haven't been properly tested and researched.

That said, if I felt there was a realistic alternative, whereby schools stayed away from the "social science" crap, and stuck to teaching primarily the skills/knowledge that children should be learning, along with common decency/morality, then I'd be very happy to support it. Perhaps non-religious schools are already doing that. I actually don't know.. although from chats with friends who are teachers, I think they're just as vulnerable as any other organisation to be teaching material that doesn't relate to skills/education aimed primarily to help them succeed in life.

Just thoughts btw. Nothing here is a definite and well-investigated belief. (obvious enough, I know, but I get the sense with boards these days, sometimes a disclaimer is needed for certain types of posts. Not for you, but for others reading)

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118145740#Comment_118145740

Like I said before, Google "non-denominational church ", and see if you really want a school like that.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118145978#Comment_118145978

My experience of the Marist Brothers was a general lack of prayers, songs or anything religious in the classrooms. There were obvious activities such as the Church Choir or the Altar boys for those interested, but they even had a separate choir for those who wanted to compete for the national children's choir, but not be involved in the religious side of things. That was the mid 80's too btw.

I think there's a lot of variation when it comes to schools and how they operate, including that of the religious schools. My own schools didn't place much emphasis of the Catholic religion except for those families directly interested in it. For everyone else, there was something else. Whereas I know from a friend who went to a different school nearby, the religious aspect was seriously followed with many prayers, and reminders.

MichaelR

I would see the issue as far more nuanced than just "church is or is not involved" and "religious indoctrination is or is not present". I would ask:

• Is there a comprehensive Relationship and Sex Education course reflecting Constitutional values?
• Is there full support for LGBTQ students?
• Is there sufficient provision for everyone in the area who wants education without sex segregation? In my view, being stuck in a segregated society damages people at a critical stage of growth. While I understand some parents can disagree, for all I know in many locations one has no co-ed option.

Flinty997

I like the Japanese model of schools, when it comes to religion and the lack of it.

In Ireland I have been surprised by how much influence the church still has in thing like hospitals, and schools in the background. That's not immediately obvious in the day to day. Often associated with more fanatical side of things.

ahappychappy

@Flinty997 just checked with a few of the kids (friends of youngest) who attend local catholic school - still prayers morning, evening and lunch - I finished school in the mid '90s and this crack is still going on in wider Dublin area today. Your comments about the hospital brought back a happy memory of trying to convince the hospital Chaplin before I had surgery that I didn't want to say a decade (or know) of the rosary , despite me clearly stating i was not religious. I have memories of trying to prevent a rather enthusiastic Legion of Mary member handing my six month old a tiny miraculous medal - firstly as it was a chocking hazard and secondly as we are not religious. But he was horrified that I was "denying" my child a religion. The challenges other family members have had is organising a non religious funeral - things have improved but it can be a challenge depending on where you are geographically. Hopefully options continue to open up and become more inclusive.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118146347#Comment_118146347

Yeah I don't want a school to be like any kind of a church, thanks.

We already have a non-religious patronage model in Ireland which works well, Educate Together, problem is that there is far more demand for ETs than there are schools or places. Relying on new schools doesn't work as only certain areas have enough population growth. The divestment process is a complete failure and tbh was designed by the Department of Education to be a complete failure and maintain the status quo as much as possible.

Sleepy

Educate Together is multi-denominational, not non-religious. It still wastes an inordinate amount of time on religious nonsense.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118146375#Comment_118146375

I like the Japanese model of schools, when it comes to religion and the lack of it.

Relatively easy to do when most of the population follow a less structured (more personal/private) belief such as Shintoism/Ancestor worship. The other faiths are made to follow suit.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118147039#Comment_118147039

Well we started down that road. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_school_(Ireland)#History

In the early nineteenth century, in a climate of animosity between the churches, the multi-denominational system was strongly opposed: the established church (Church of Ireland), though the church of the minority, held a special position and a right to government support in promoting Anglicanism.[10] Both the Roman Catholic Church, which was emerging from a period of suppression in Ireland, and the Protestant Presbyterians, who had also suffered under the penal laws, had sought state support for schools of their own tradition.[10]

Its interesting to see how we got from there to here.

Alex86Eire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118146690#Comment_118146690

I've very surprised by the three prayers a day. I've taught in several catholic schools and have never come across anything like this. There might be a prayer at a Christmas/Easter service or at a random assembly but never every week not to mind multiple times every day!

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118146999#Comment_118146999

I didn't say it was non-religious, I said its patron was non-religious, that's not the same thing atall atall 😉 and yeah I'd prefer they didn't give credence to religious woo of any flavour, but at least they do so on an equal basis and don't push any religious belief onto kids.

ahappychappy

Yep I have been keeping my ears open as plenty of people who chose the Catholic school over the local ET were very judgemental over the lack of uniform and the fact kids wouldn't learn respect if they knew their teachers first name etc are a little taken aback at how out of step the new Catholic school is. Strangely my kids have the upmost respect for their teachers and ET team as they are all part of their school community. Before covid there was kids racing in to help the caretaker out with lunch deliveries. They haven't combusted from wearing comfortable clothes either😊. They have friends who marked varying religious celebrations and they were always happy to make a card or bring in a packet of Pokemon cards to mark the occasion. Amazingly without religious indoctrination they learn to be kind respectful individuals, who are encouraged to engage by a great group of men and women. School has such a huge impact on kids it's a big part of their little world. When they have teachers who "get" them it's gold.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118145704#Comment_118145704

There’s plenty of evidence that catholic schools in Northern Ireland are doing much better than dull comprehensives in England.

the uK has plenty of religious schools, most of the elite schools, in fact.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118147663#Comment_118147663

Never once in my primary or secondary school did we have a prayer or even an assembly. How common is that anyway in Ireland?

Geuze

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118145978#Comment_118145978

Yes, some of the posters seem to have gone to schools totally unlike what I experienced.

I attended primary school in the 80s, a typical school, owned by a church, there was the normal/usual Holy Communion and Confirmation, plus I served at mass, but I never felt any indoctrination. I do not recall any prayers in class, but to be fair, I could be wrong. There was a daily assembly, and okay, there may have been prayers at that.

My secondary was a CBS, again, no prayers as far as I recall, with maybe one, max two priests still on the staff, and no indoctrination.

We did go a retreat, I vaguely remember.

People seem to suggest that 1950s style education was happening in the 1990s.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118148266#Comment_118148266

Must be all the prayin' 🙄 couldn't be anything to do with the fact that the nationalist community in NI has for many decades (due to discrimination in traditional industrial and state jobs) seen education as their only way forward. Nah. Must be the prayin'.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118149090#Comment_118149090

I didn’t say anything about praying, except that it didn’t happen when I went to school.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118149064#Comment_118149064

there was the normal/usual Holy Communion and Confirmation, plus I served at mass, but I never felt any indoctrination.

It felt normal because everyone else was doing it and your parents had done it in their day too, but it absolutely was indoctrination. It means instruction in a religious doctrine, how can you say you were prepared for sacraments in the school without being instructed in catholic doctrine? plus they even got you to give up your spare time to be the priest's skivvy when you could have been out kicking a ball or doing any of the thousands of more worthwhile things a kid could have been doing.

Irish people are still so bet down they think this stuff as part of the everyday going to school experience is normal. It's not normal outside of theocracies.

Flinty997

Is he arguing we only think its normal because it is normal here.

Or its not normal regardless where it happens. Even if its normalized.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118149096#Comment_118149096

That's pretty unusual to say the least. But you do seem to be claiming that a religious patron school is intrinsically better, while ignoring the effects of culture and parental involvement / expectation. Got any evidence?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118149117#Comment_118149117

But you do seem to be claiming that a religious patron school is intrinsically better, while ignoring the effects of culture and parental involvement / expectation. Got any evidence?

Where does he say that?

Mal-Adjusted

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118144396#Comment_118144396

That's called theft and it's illegal. Why do you want the state to steal land?

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118149759#Comment_118149759

There’s plenty of evidence that catholic schools in Northern Ireland are doing much better than dull comprehensives in England.

Which is at best a disingenuous comparison

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118149117#Comment_118149117

i don’t think it is unusual. It was the 90s, early 2000s. There were no priests and one Christian brothers in the staff - the science teacher and a good one, no assembly, no prayers, nothing. Religion was a civics class.

I’m Surprised that anywhere else was different to be honest.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118150131#Comment_118150131

Why is that?

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118150751#Comment_118150751

I expect many people had a similar experience.

However these days it may be different. As the religion declines, there is a shift to fundamentalism and certain discrimination in school appointments. behind the scenes.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118150950#Comment_118150950

That’s interesting. Didn’t think of that.

anyway I’d get rid of the church involvement now, im just not someone who believes it was a madrassa back then either.

Geuze

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118149097#Comment_118149097

Then maybe my interpretation of indoctrination is different from yours.

I suggest the normal day to day activities in any typical church-owned school in Ireland is not indoctrination.

Obviously there is instruction in whatever faith owns the school.

I consider indoctrination to be much stricter/regulated than what happens in a typical Irish school, for example like an Islamic school, where the boundary between the religion and daily life is blurred.

An anecdote: as a retreat, I think I told the priest I was agnostic. Could a kid say that in an Islamic school?

I do not consider the following indoctrination:

church is patron of school / school named after a saint / 1-2 minute prayer before the first class starts / prep for Holy Communion, etc.

Flinty997

In fairness it is indoctrination, even it its not that effective. It didn't always have negative connotations.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indoctrination

"..Religious indoctrination, the original sense of indoctrination, refers to a process of imparting doctrine in an authoritative way, as in catechism..."

What people general dispute is this interpretation.

"..As a pejorative term, indoctrination implies forcibly or coercively causing people to act and think on the basis of a certain ideology.."

Governments indoctrinate the population through education and the media. It's simply softer and more subtle (sometimes) than the more obvious church indoctrination.

Living in China made me see just how much indoctrination goes on, on a daily basis... and I saw the same indoctrination going on when I returned to Ireland. Different messages, with different intent, but it's there nonetheless, whether it's marketing from businesses, child/adult psychology in educational curriculum, or whatever. It's there around us all the time, conditioning us to trigger emotions at certain images, or to consider particular philosophies as being superior to others.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118149759#Comment_118149759

Post 81

deirdremf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118151145#Comment_118151145

I do not consider the following indoctrination:

church is patron of school / school named after a saint / 1-2 minute prayer before the first class starts / prep for Holy Communion, etc.

I can't agree with you there.

While the patron being a religious body, and the school being named after a saint are not in themselves indoctrination, it is laughable to say that religious acts such as saying prayers and teaching catholic doctrine are not indoctrination. I mean the word indoctrination actually comes from the word doctrine!

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118150754#Comment_118150754

NI is in effect a different country from England and Wales, certainly a very different society with different attitudes to education and a totally different education system (e.g. nowhere else in the UK still has grammar schools).

So the prominence of religion in the NI school system is very far from being the only difference.