Where did all the power go?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118116136#Comment_118116136

yeh it jumped really quickly after the hour went back.

Capt'n Midnight

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118099948#Comment_118099948

How far ? Korea had to shut down half their reactors over a fake parts scandal. Japan nearly lost two other reactors during the tsunami. A reactor made of Chinesium ? with their health and safety record ?

The mantra from the nuclear power industry is "this time it'll be different" when the previous fúckups get mentioned. All you have to do is look at the UK's project to have six nuclear power plants up and running before they phase out the current ones. It's kinda important since by 2030, all but one of Britain’s 15 currently operational nuclear facilities are to be taken offline, equating to a 35% reduction in the country’s total power.

Hinkley Point C - delays and insane cost overruns AND a guaranteed 35 year index linked market for it's power which is twice the wholesale market price. (Lifetime cost ~ £100Bn)

Sizewell C - no permissions

Bradwell B - no costs, no permissions

Moorside (ye olde Calder Hall/Sellafield/Windscale site) - After negotiations to sell it to Korean firm Kepco broke down, the Japanese conglomerate Toshiba closed its UK nuclear business NuGeneration Limited.

Wylfa Newydd and Oldbury-on-Severn - Hitachi announced it was officially pulling the plug on its UK nuclear programme until further notice.

Ten years down the road only one out of six plants is actually under construction and the original timescales and budgets have proven to be pure fantasies.

green daries

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118098738#Comment_118098738

Ya well put Dan ludicrous ideas to just shut down in such a short time frame

80% renewables - exporting 13%.

God bless a windy day.

grassmoon

It's about time Ireland grew up and adopted nuclear power. It's an extremely safe, reliable and clean source of electricity. Rolls-Royce's small modular reactors would be perfect for a small country like ours. They can be built off site in the UK, transported by HGV and installed in an existing power station site. No big infrastructure planning is required. Uranium is an affordable and abundant fuel. It would give Ireland energy independence.

Markcheese

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118129943#Comment_118129943

Brilliant idea , do you want to nip over to England and pick a couple up ?

No need to rush they're not designed yet , let alone tested so you've about 15 to 20 years to hang around ...any plans for what you'd like to do in the meantime ?

JupiterKid

The energy situation really seems to be a complete shambles.

I had always been of the view that the ESB was one of the most competent State agencies in terms of delivering capacity long before it was actually needed - but now we are in a mess, largely of our own making. Maybe I missed something but when the energy sector was deregulated and opened up to competition did we take our eyes off the ball, so to speak?

It's clear that wind power, as abundant as it is on this windy island, is simply not reliable enough to carry us over and there is little to no backup/reserve to cover any closures or power stations going offline.

Being so dependent on the interconnector with the UK post-Brexit with dangerous imbeciles like Bojo in power is a recipe for disaster.

I think that the potential of micro generation by households seems like a great idea. We have to really up our game in terms of energy - where is the power to recharge all those new electric cars going to come from?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118129943#Comment_118129943

Not a hope would i trust the clowns running this country to be honest with the public,if an accident occured at a nuclear plant.....

we'd be left here in chernobyl mk2,while they'd have their own families to safety first

Danzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118129943#Comment_118129943

Is paying for the most expensive option, that will take years to build being grown up now?

Nuclear is safe enough but from an economic point of view, it's bat shi7 insane.

Every other energy source would meet our demand at a much cheaper and faster schedule.

AndyBoBandy

We should be pursuing a renewables + storage policy in Ireland….

Solar Farms should be dotted around the country. Give farmers a viable option to switch their land to Solar PV farms moving away from high carbon agri (they’d probably earn more anyway as a generator)

Solar PV should be more accessible to every home in the country with a roof - government backed interest free loans could help this along.

Wind - We should be installing a lot more offshore wind generation, consuming what we generate, and any excess being sold abroad or put into storage.

Objections to offshore wind should be dealt with & rejected swiftly (you don’t have a right to that sea view) (for the record my sea view is a planned offshore wind site and I say bring it on: 1,000%)

Tidal - while the technology is in its infancy, we should be following its development very closely.. Ireland has some very strong tidal currents. The tide comes in and out twice a day. Every day. Forever (as long as we still have a moon). You can predict it for years into the future. The tide changes direction 4 times a day, and an hour either side of that change is ‘slack water’ where the flow slows down to a stop before changing direction, but that aside there is a good 16-18 hours a day of strong steady tidal flow - harness this abs and you have a never ending supply of guaranteed predictable generation.

Storage - in the 1960’s, the ESB built Turlough Hill, a highly advanced storage facility that uses water as its energy source (when demand is low and you have excess, pump the water up the hill (charge the battery), and when demand is high, drain the water back down the hill through generators (drain the battery)). Battery technology is also rapidly advancing. So install huge battery banks that charge up when there is lots of excess Solar/wind being generated, only to use it later when system demand is greater than renewables supply.

of course we’ll always need some local fossil fuel back-up, but if you’re using it sparingly, only when needed, emissions remain low.

then as a final backup, we have the inter connectors.

Ger Roe

JupiterKid:

"Maybe I missed something but when the energy sector was deregulated and opened up to competition did we take our eyes off the ball, so to speak?"

Yes... this exactly. The Irish electrictity network was established as a state service ... commercial operators would not have touched it, even if they existed at the time, and so it was a national project - world leading. Then we were pushed through EU policy to open up to commercial operation so as to encourage competition that never happens in our effectively insulated and isolated economy. Commercial company operation is to do the least possible for the maximum amount of profitable return - we should never have agreed to give up some of our sate operated services to commercial enterprises, where they now have to be persuaded (through subsidy) or forced (through penalty that is then passed on to the consumer) to provide services that would have been state obligations previously.

The large scale economic principles of competition in the larger European mainland or world economies, do not work here. We have a country with a population of a medium sized city in other parts of the world. We need to think more like managing a city and stop trying to adopt large country or continent scaled economic policies for our small damp rock on the outskirts of civilisation.

RandomViewer

If you drive through the North you'll see wind turbines at any middle sized farmyard, why didn't the ESB push that in the South

AndyBoBandy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118130855#Comment_118130855

I remember reading/hearing a few years ago about a new wind farm that was built down the country, and they were located 900m from the nearest HV lines they’d need to feed into the grid, and they were waiting for ESB networks to do the final connection for them, but they’d been waiting for something like a year, and still had no idea when they’d eventually be connected up to start generating revenue for their investors……

so when the private sector is up against such circumstances, it’s understandable why there’s little to no appetite to invest in Ireland.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118130661#Comment_118130661

Everything you mention is being done now or is underway with the exception of tidal.

Don't get me wrong, I love the idea of tidal, but the 3 problems it has are

1. Anything with moving parts, in seawater, does not last long and has horrendous maintenance costs
2. If you want a strong current, you are very VERY limited in the locations you can set it up
3. If you settle for weaker currents you can't generate enough power to make it viable

Truly I hope someone cracks the tidal nut because on paper it looks amazing, but putting it into practice is the struggle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118130727#Comment_118130727

Are you really trying to argue that we were be terr off with a monopoly? Seriously?

Not sure how old you are but I recall well, plenty of power cuts when I was a child. The situation is a million times better now than before

Ger Roe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118130933#Comment_118130933

I am old enough to have been there too - plenty of power cuts alright, but all due to labour disputes as was rife throughout every industry at the time. Labour relations procedures and employee protection has improved since then. I don't remember ever hearing about potential cuts arising due to perfectly predictable demand.

At least with a government monopoly, we know where the buck stops and can take action at the ballot box. Now with independent regulators, departmental lack of responsibility separation and EU legislation to blame, we are given the responsibility runaround whenever hard questions have to be asked.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118131515#Comment_118131515

we are given the responsibility runaround whenever hard questions have to be asked.

In the case of electricity in Ireland, can you give an example, curious to see who is giving who the runaround

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118129943#Comment_118129943

ireland has grown up by not adopting a disproportionately expensive, disproportionately subsidized power generation solution that is expensive to the consumer and the tax payer.

the small reactors are only still in development so it's a very long time before they will be viable.

renewables, and gas with scrubbed emissions will do the same job at a fraction of the cost of currently available and proven nuclear solutions.

it just would not pass a BCR.

grassmoon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118130378#Comment_118130378

They'll be available from 2030 onwards. Planning should start now. Continue expanding renewables and replace coal/oil/peat with natural gas in the meantime.

grassmoon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118130500#Comment_118130500

This is just hysterical ignorance. The chance of an accident is extremely low, especially with current and future generation reactors. The Chernobyl accident was caused by gross human incompetence. Even then it would have been prevented with either a containment building or using water as a moderator. Both of these features are present in every other reactor design on the planet. A Chernobyl type accident is impossible now. The containment building at Fukushima did its job as it survived an earthquake, tsunami and a hydrogen explosion. The radiation release was minimal and controlled.

grassmoon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118132520#Comment_118132520

9 years isn't a long time.

grassmoon

Renewables are decades from being able to provide reliable baseload power. Nuclear power can do it now and should be embraced.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118134426#Comment_118134426

it can but it's not affordable.

perhapse if it had been introduced in the 50s or 60s then it might have passed a BCR but now it's just to late.

Markcheese

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118134397#Comment_118134397

So , exactly what we're already doing ?

If those modular reactors come in on time - a big if - and they come in on budget another big if - and they're reliable - a third big if ... Then they're potentially a goer -

any one know how much uranium is out there , how long would it last if pretty much every country moved to nuclear - ?

I'm gonna assume that mining and refining all that yellow cake doesn't involve flowers and butterflies ( no more than any other mining process )

Capt'n Midnight

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118129943#Comment_118129943

Uranium is an affordable and abundant fuel. It would give Ireland energy independence. Nope.

You can prospect for uranium and thorium from low flying aircraft using Airborne Gamma-ray Spectrometry or look at existing radon maps so all the low hanging fruit was picked clean long ago. Remaining ores are poorer grades or in tough stuff like granite which costs way more to process. Most of the nuclear weapons held by the US and USSR were processed into fuel years ago.

The only reason the price of uranium isn't sky high is the lack of demand. If there was a nuclear renaissance, as keeps being predicted for the last 40 years, the price of it would shoot up.

Look at the fuss over gold mining in the Croagh Patrick area to get an inkling of what would happen if the low grades of uranium in Ireland were to be mined.

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118135078#Comment_118135078

...but if we start experiencing black outs, public opinion might just turn, might!

Capt'n Midnight

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118134423#Comment_118134423

The chances of an accident is low, but not as low as you suggest given the number of unplanned outages. The consequences can be very high though.

A Chernobyl type accident is impossible now." - There are nine reactors of that old type RBMK-1000 still in use in Kursk, Leningrad and Smolensk. You are telling me a gun is child-safe when I know there's nine rounds in the magazine, it's cocked and the only safety feature is that you need to use more pressure than normal on the double-action trigger.

At the other end of age scale the Chinese have had fuel rod problems in the new Taishan EPR.