Why do people feel they are entitled to the money of others?

DoctorEdgeWild

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118103036#Comment_118103036

That's interesting because it's usually the other way around for arguing this point (I think I probably earn way lower than yourself!)

Whoever proposed a flat rate earlier in the thread seems to be the most 'fair and equal' way to tax people, I just don't know if it's possible without everything grinding to a halt.

A flat rate for every person paying the exact same percentage into the pot. I wonder how that would affect the overall tax take.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118103076#Comment_118103076

Also a high earner, if you have more money than you can fathomably do anything with. Then ya, that should be taxed heavily. Like the US did historically tax to a greater degree a few decades back.

I equally don't mind that I'm taxed to a greater degree than lower earners. That goes towards maintaining the infrastructures we all rely on. Be it the health service, roads, electricity networks.

DoctorEdgeWild

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118103130#Comment_118103130

Once again I'm in the weird position of arguing for you to be taxed less, and possibly me to be taxed more? 😄

Just doesn't seem fair to me that you are taxed a higher percentage of what you earn than I am. (I'm just assuming here for the sake of the thread, don't want anyone's personal info!!)

dulpit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118103191#Comment_118103191

Because ability to pay has a major impact here? That you seem to be ignoring...

DoctorEdgeWild

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118103561#Comment_118103561

But it flies in the face of fairness and equality? Two things we probably all want to see more of in society? If everyone pays an equal percentage of their personal income, that's the fairest way to split the cost of society?

(I know that still leaves business/industry, which is a more complicated situation for obvious reasons)

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118103076#Comment_118103076

flat taxes have been tried and failed, it just meant less revenue was received, and wealth still engaged in tax avoidance

DoctorEdgeWild

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118103648#Comment_118103648

I figured someone must have tried it alright. Seems a lot fairer than the current system but if there's no appetite for change, no government will look at it and the inequal system must be preferred by the majority.

Strumms

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118103130#Comment_118103130

And you are paying more into the health services but if you get sick ( touch wood it don’t transpire) you’ll be asked to pay while medical card holders won’t.

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118103684#Comment_118103684

we have an extremely serious wealth re-distribution problem, and we dont know how to solve it, but there are really interesting ideas out there in how we might go about it, unfortunately our political institutions are stuck in dangerous ideologies, that are largely causing the problem, this is the thinking on both the left and right. our political institutions actually have very little power, theyve been depowered gradually over time, again largely due to these ideologies, we need to re-empower them, but that wont be easy, as the centers of power wont want to give up that power, but it must happen, or we re probably all screwed, including these centers of power

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118103685#Comment_118103685

again, our health care systems issues are extremely complex, welfare recipients and medical card holders are easy targets for its failures, but this is further from the truth

jmayo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118102357#Comment_118102357

What great idea had Gates.

He robbed the idea of a GUI from Apple who got it from Xerox.

If you want to look up who had all the original great ideas in computing look up Xerox Park.

Microsoft's power was in marketing and taking advantage of idiot competitors often with superior products.

Bezos great idea was online retailing, but so did lots of others.

Hell imagine how much bigger Kennys bookshop in Galway would be if they could have used the same tax loopholes as Amazon did to avoid taxes.

Hell they are around for years before Amazon.

Their wealth is global not just US.

Do you think Microsoft or Amazon only sell in US ?

Why do you think they often have HQs in the likes of Ireland or IP registered in Bermuda or Isle of Man ?

Just like Facefook and Zuckerberg can influence worldwide.

dulpit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118103592#Comment_118103592

Except at the lower incomes the percentage disproportionally affects people than at the high incomes.

Murph85

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118103036#Comment_118103036

Fifty percent marginal rate over a pittance here, Bezos wouldnt bend down to pick up 36,000. Yet if you are the working poor in dublin, you are hit with a marginal rate of tax fit for the world of wall street... of wait, my bad!

Insane taxes are only for the peasants... tax you here at fifty percent over a pittance. Tax these companies at ninety percent, they have more money than god. All of the money comes from us to buy their ****,the dirt cheap labour from us!

Murph85

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118103076#Comment_118103076

Renua the political party proposed it. They dropped it pretty quick.... basically and they were right, they said the Irish public were too stupid to understand or grasp it.

Is it fair that somebody on 20k or 200k pays 20% tax. No is the answer... they guy on 200k , who gets nothing extra, shouldn't be paying 10 times more in euro into the pot... it should be a hundred times more... that's irish " fairness "

The" high "earners here are taken for a total ride...

Murph85

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118103648#Comment_118103648

That may he the case. Let me assure you that an idiotic marginal rate of fifty percent over a pittance, is a uniquely irish situation and is economically damaging and stifling lunacy... no way should they be taking more than 40% , regardless of income, when everything state related is a sham. You need private health insurance. RIP off child care. Everything. What do these insane tax rates o high earners get you here?

In other countries in Europe, high tax. But the contract and exchange is good services... here ? What does it get us? Appalling health service, infrastructure , housing crisis. We dont even have a mimitary soend unlike other countries for christ sake. Wont siend ninety on more prisons...The world's most generous welfare state at times of full employment. Xmas bonus for long term unemployment, not for those who recently lost a job... rip off housing deals for social housing, token gesture rents.... while workers couch surf...

Ffg have created some serious amount of social disharmony and damage

Potential-Monke

Don't really have anything to add other than I do make a point of not using Amazon if at all possible. Not because he doesn't pay proper wages or have proper conditions for his warehouse staff. Not because he allows people to sell on his site until his algorithms detect that a certain product is selling well so they powerhouse a supplier to give the same things for less and then sell directly from Amazon. Hell, I don't care that he rode someone else and lost half his billions. I don't use them because they don't seem fit to have an Irish website, and I'm sick of getting results that tell me they don't ship to Ireland. Simples.

But, I've seen a lot of Irish sites start to become competative. I got a Motherboard from MemoryC a couple of weeks back, delivered in less than a week and at least €20 cheaper than I could find on Amazon, and that's not even taking into account the extra for shipping from the UK sellers. Yes, Amazon is extremely handy, but I don't like the whole business in general, and I'd prefer to give my money to actual Irish companies (if they're competitive). I can't remember the last time I bought from Amazon, but I did use to buy a bit.

I'd consider going back if they have a proper Irish site. One that doesn't show results that won't ship to me.

magicbastarder

yeah, i own several castles and three tons of gold.

ArthurDayne

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118096885#Comment_118096885

I think it’s also important to reflect on the fact that “winners” and “losers” in the prevailing global economic system is an extremely subjective concept. Do I feel like a “winner”, when compared to millionaires and billionaires and when I still can’t afford to buy a house despite having what many would consider a good job? Not really no. But then again, I took a non-extravagant but still very nice holiday in the Mediterranean last week — and a few hundred kilometres over the sea there are shores where you will find people willing to risk their lives to earn a fraction of what I earn and to enjoy the peace / social stability I enjoy.

So when we talk about the system being unfair, and the likes of Jeff Bezos having more than they ever need, we tend to see ourselves as the “little guy” getting screwed over, when it is not unreasonable at all to say that the system is very much tipped in our favour — even if it is tipped more in favour of the mega-rich. There’s a great scene in “Margin Call” (an absolutely cracking movie about the onset of the financial crisis through the eyes of one financial services company) where a young employee questions the value of what they actually contribute to the world and how necessary stockbrokers / investments funds / finance types really are, and his manager responds by referring to people in the developed world and how they preach fairness but, deep down, don’t really want it:

”The only reason people get to continue living like kings is because we’ve got our fingers on the scales and we’re tipping in their favour. I take my hand off, well then the whole world gets really f*cking fair really f*cking quick and nobody actually wants that. They say they do, but they really don’t. They want what we have to give them but they also want to play innocent and pretend they have no idea where it actually came from, and that’s more hypocrisy than I’m willing to swallow. So f*ck ‘em.”

I don’t entirely agree with the sentiment, but I always thought the quote makes a good point about our hypocrisy in decrying the unfairness if the world as relatively prosperous Westerners.

VinLieger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118104772#Comment_118104772

LOL you know about inflation right?

shootermacg

These people actively engage in tax avoidance. These people are engaged in .....ahem, lets call it lobbying (directly or indirectly) to change the system to favor themselves. Yeah, these people should be treated as the pariah's their actions show them to be. Sure you can say they're just using the system. No they are exploiting the system and looking to change the system.

VinLieger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118106348#Comment_118106348

Not really if you consider the likes of Bezos and musk the equals of kings 300 years ago, then using your analogy we are all peasents

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118106435#Comment_118106435

Tax avoidance is not illegal, tax evasion is. If your accountant isn’t using the taxation regulations to reduce your tax liability to its lowest legal level, then you should fire them as you are both foolish.

VinLieger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118106665#Comment_118106665

LOL if you are simply stating the fact that people have access to more and better things than people 300 years ago its a pretty pointless addition to the topic and thread.

dulpit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118106733#Comment_118106733

The problem is that only the rich can avail of tax avoidance, suggesting that there should be some sort of way to put a stop to it. Or at least reduce it.

GreeBo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118104042#Comment_118104042

"Tax these companies at 90%"?

So incentive to increase profit it what exactly?

How much indirect tax do you reckon Amazon etc are responsible for? How many people to they indirectly employ? Who is delivering all these packages? Who is supplying all these vehicles to deliver them? Who is buying all the packaging? Etc, Etc.

There is a reason these companies are given breaks and its not because of some infantile "gubberment are evil" reason, its because even paying a small amount of tax, they massively contribute to the overall economy.

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118107898#Comment_118107898

This is simply not true. Every self employed person who uses an accountant pays them to use all reliefs available to reduce income tax. Employees can use reliefs like medical expenses and pension contributions to avoid paying full tax on income. There is absolutely nothing wrong with reducing your tax bill by legal means, your tax may be simpler and may not need top accountancy firms, but corporates do need those firms and are entitled to use whatever reliefs are available in that jurisdiction.

Murph85

Even at 90% they make what? Billions a year in profit... that isnt worth getting out of bed for?

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118108456#Comment_118108456

I know you are probably using the 90% for illustrative purposes, but any jurisdiction which taxes at 90% would be pushing companies out to countries with lower taxation.

Wanderer78

economist Michael Hudson is spot on, 'behind every great wealth, is a great theft'!

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118108587#Comment_118108587

Yes, it ranks up there with “behind every great man is a great woman”.