PUP fraud €183k, should the guilty be stripped of citizenship?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118122818#Comment_118122818

No, you obviously dont.

I have posted the department that you could get actual facts of how it works. But if of course, you're not interested, you prefer to make stuff up to suit your agenda

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118122860#Comment_118122860

Your attachment to metaphysical, non-empirical categories such as 'Irishness' is no concern of mine.

However, you are stretching what I said to suit your point. To make it clear for you, because your attachment is causing you to see prejudice where there is none:

a) I have had more in common with individuals from the arse end of Mexico than I have had with many Irish people.

AND (this is the part your prejudice and attachments blinds you to, because you are thinking in either/or categories)

b) I have had more in common with individuals from the arse end of Mexico than I had with many other individuals from the arse end of Mexico.

It's not a pro- or anti-Irish position. To be pro- or anti-Irish as if all Irish fit into some banal categories is ridiculous metaphysical BS. (Again, it's your attachment to grandiose notions of 'Irishness' and 'identity' that blinds you to this.)

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118122818#Comment_118122818

We know the low refusal rate ,(lowest in Europe),we know the numbers of people in and come through dp ,we know the numbers of new citizenships have massive increased over the last few years in particular,we know the numbers of deportations carried out here over the last 30 years (pitiful number) we know the cost of housing , medical,free legal aid , to taxpayers .

And we both know that you're never going to get an honest answer from those posters who constantly defend mass immigration and the joys of diversity. We should be welcoming and supporting everyone in the world, while ensuring that the next few generations inherit a squalid mess of problems.

The negatives are to be ignored in favor of short term feel good initiatives.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118122891#Comment_118122891

Yes, I don't get the overly critical crew either. And yes, for all its flaws, by global standards Ireland is an oasis of sanity, underappreciated by its own.

Strumms

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118121323#Comment_118121323

citizenships are removed from people all over the world in various countries for various reasons.

If the people exude the behavior and actions which are incompatible with the safety and welfare of the country, its inhabitants and visitors... the country as per our constitution has a mandate to do something about it.

Hamachi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118122914#Comment_118122914

I don't see any point arguing with somebody who sees a contrary opinion as myopic and prejudicial. Good luck.

Blazer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118121789#Comment_118121789

they're involved in deporting them ie the emigration kind :)

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118122961#Comment_118122961

Apologies if my rhetoric offended you. However, by prejudice I meant that you are placing value on a thing (in this case the empty concept of some homogenous identity among the Irish diaspora) and evaluating other statements accordingly. If the grounds of your values are bogus, your values are bogus too.

One person claiming that metaphysical categories are real and the other claiming that they are not real that they are in fact BS and that it is foolish to place value on them is not a difference of opinion, it is a difference of mental practice --one relies on the metaphysical and the other relies on the empirical. Concepts like Irishness require so many exemptions, exceptions, hand waving, assumptions, and generalizations that they amouint to little more than meaningless unempirical drivel.

Anyway, we are a bit OT discussing 'identity' and 'culture' on a thread about a legal question.

Billgirlylegs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118107924#Comment_118107924

Yes it was an impressive amount.

Your figures are probably wrong. These valuable citizens were not caught this week and frogmarched straight to to court. They were convicted on the basis of what they did. Probably took a while to investigate. Maybe spotted in 2020? Probably the tip of the iceberg.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118122947#Comment_118122947

haha.. I wouldn't go that far. An Oasis of sanity? Most people think we're nuts to put up with our Political groups, but being Irish is also recognising that some things never change. But yeah, Ireland is generally a damn fine society/nation when you compare it to other societies around the world.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118122978#Comment_118122978

No they are not.

members of the Irish Naturalisation and Immigration Service and members of the Garda National Immigration Bureau are involved in deportations.

Nothing to do with customs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118123048#Comment_118123048

Well I was thinking of the chaos of places in Mexico and the craziness of some US cities, but also that Ireland is safe. Safe in a mixed meaning, mixed blessing way. It could save you from harm and bore you to death simultaneously. (Now I'm getting into vague generalizations and metaphysical waffle. :D )

None of these perspectives are pro- or anti- Irish, BTW, a broader question about how we relate to our origins. It's not that we should reject or cling to them or assign any particular value to our origins or even think about them at all (there is no necessity for us to so); they are mere facts.

For me, given how short life is, it is negligent in the extreme (circumstances permitting of course) not to spend huge amounts of time off the island, learning along the way. We can all be grandiose about our own perspectives and doings, but for me spending time away from Ireland is not a rejection of 'Irishness' it is an expression of what having an appetite for life and an insatiable curiosity about people really means. And if I was born in any other country, I would say the same about it (except for the island part, possibly :D)

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118123383#Comment_118123383

Dunno., I see S. American or the US cities as being extremes. Although, then again, African cities are really dodgy too. I found Asia to be very safe though.

I didn't think of your posts as being pro or anti Irish. TBH i just saw an opinion about Irish culture, and I share some of the same attitudes. However, I do see conditioning to be an extremely important part of understanding a national culture, and it's been present everywhere I've been, because it's what society does. Society seeks to encourage conformity, because that's how it encourages stability.

As for spending time away from Ireland, I think it would be healthy for people to do, and to provide some perspective about what the country is really like, as opposed to their limited view without experiencing competing/alternative cultures themselves. I wasn't saying that spending time away from Ireland was always a rejection of Irishness, although, I do know many people who would consider it as such. I rejected the traditional Irish culture that I grew up in, but mostly, that culture is now dead. Ireland has changed considerably in the last decade or so. Those who have stayed here probably don't see it though.

Marcos

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118122916#Comment_118122916

This is true, and they're probably the kind to defend these poor craytur's that were arrested yesterday during a multi agency operation into "investigations of Covid 19 welfare activity . . . Five business premises were searched with the aim of disrupting, eliminating and prosecuting this fraudulent activity."

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118122916#Comment_118122916

And we both know that you're never going to get an honest answer from those posters who constantly defend mass immigration and the joys of diversity. We should be welcoming and supporting everyone in the world, while ensuring that the next few generations inherit a squalid mess of problems.

That's rich. Speaking about honesty in your first sentence and then building a strawman in your second. No one is suggesting we should be welcoming and supporting everyone in the world.

Defend your position against what is being said, not what you want to pretend is being said.

(not to mention your final statement of predicting the future without a rational basis to do so)

greendom

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118104651#Comment_118104651

But not for an Irish born person to do exactly the same thing? That's bizarre!

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118103978#Comment_118103978

Likes of Duffy won’t touch it.

Blazer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118123049#Comment_118123049

Maybe i got his dept wrong then. He’s not a blowholer but You know how guards are or indeed how any person Is when talking about their job. Just insanely boring really and I daydream away :)

enricoh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118123720#Comment_118123720

Gotta love this country, 17 people get arrested for being here illegally and also claiming the pup payment.

16 of them get bail, the one that didn't has an outstanding bench warrant! Now lads will ye turn up for court in a few weeks yiz seem like a fairly honest bunch!

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/courtandcrime/arid-40737777.html

Fandymo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118121609#Comment_118121609

If I work in a stables for 10 years, I probably know the day to day experiences of the horses there, it doesn’t make me a horse though.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118124700#Comment_118124700

Yes, and the rats who were born in the stables and have lived all their lives there aren't horses either are they?

Or what's your point?

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118124613#Comment_118124613

I'm sure they will all be turning up to a citizenship ceremony in the near future ,

Fandymo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118124912#Comment_118124912

If we don’t give them citizenship we are racist or something.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118125100#Comment_118125100

Maybe a picture will help.

Dazler97

Yes because if they think they can milk our system then they'll continue doing it, where not strick enough, ireland is basically Europe's bitch,

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118123761#Comment_118123761

That's rich. Speaking about honesty in your first sentence and then building a strawman in your second. No one is suggesting we should be welcoming and supporting everyone in the world.

Really? Cause I've seen a lot of that posters contributions on a variety of threads related to immigration, and he tends to defend any and all immigration.

Defend your position against what is being said, not what you want to pretend is being said.

Haha.. now that's rich coming from you. As I'm sure many on this thread and others would agree on.

(not to mention your final statement of predicting the future without a rational basis to do so)

Actually, the proof is in the pudding, as the problems/consequences associated with increased populations (due to modern immigration patterns) of many cultures in a modern western society, are a reality. They're consistent across all Western nations that have embraced this multiculturalist experiment, once they pass the first two decades. But no, that's not a rational assumption, to see the same results repeated.. because what? We're going to be different?

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118126817#Comment_118126817

Actually, the proof is in the pudding, as the problems/consequences associated with increased populations (due to modern immigration patterns) of many cultures in a modern western society, are a reality. 

History shows us that with more integration between people, we have more harmony and less aggression on a macro scale. Europes most peaceful period has been since the founding of the EU and the integration that came as a consequence of that for example.

Also there is the fact that there are going to be people who cause pain and destruction even within their own community, you cannot ignore that, and the more absence of conflict at a macro level to suggest that the source cause of such unpleasantness is the mixing of different cultures.

All that aside, what message do you think it gives to people of different cultures if you are telling them that they are going to be treated differently than 'the natives' for the same offence? Maybe it's part of the strategy, create disharmony and division, and then if someone snaps and acts out as a consequence, use that as evidence to suggest, 'See, they can never truly fit in'.

If you are genuinely worried about such things happen, you, and others would look to encourage people to feel welcome and recognized as Irish instead of goading them in to a negative action.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118126926#Comment_118126926

History shows us that with more integration between people, we have more harmony and less aggression on a macro scale. Europes most peaceful period has been since the founding of the EU and the integration that came as a consequence of that for example.

History shows us that a clear dominant primary culture is what works, with other cultures being tolerated but not accepted entirely. Historically, Assimilation was the expected result of foreign cultures existing within any society. As for integration, that's a vague and dubious claim to make. And actually, Europe's most peaceful period has been since WW2, and the founding of the EU falls within that, due to the lessons learned from that conflict and the movement of Europe away from following strong political ideologies.

Ahh yes, I know the argument made when facing criticism about immigration or multiculturalism to switch to talking about Europeans... rather than dealing with the problems of immigration from non-EU nations. EU immigration tends to remain stable, due to a similarity between cultures/history, and a sharing of most value systems. However, immigration and multiculturalism from Non-European nations brings a host of conflicting viewpoints and expectations.

Also there is the fact that there are going to be people who cause pain and destruction even within their own community, you cannot ignore that, and the more absence of conflict at a macro level to suggest that the source cause of such unpleasantness is the mixing of different cultures.

I've never claimed that there aren't problems within a native group. This is simply another common deflection. We have bad people within our own society, so we can't consider the problems with those from outside that group. Meh.

All that aside, what message do you think it gives to people of different cultures if you are telling them that they are going to be treated differently than 'the natives' for the same offence? Maybe it's part of the strategy, create disharmony and division, and then if someone snaps and acts out as a consequence, use that as evidence to suggest, 'See, they can never truly fit in'.

The same message that exists around the whole world. That foreigners are foreign, and won't be treated the same as the native group. There's no reason that they can't be processed the same as the native group, in how criminal proceedings are followed, with guilt/innocence established... but you're fooling yourself if you believe that foreigners/natives are treated the same when it comes to punishment.

Double standards exist everywhere. That's a simple fact about all the nations/cultures in the entire world. We can be "better" by applying the law equally, applying the same punishment for the crimes involved, and then revoking citizenship/deporting foreigners who were extended the gift of citizenship. Seems fair to me.

If you are genuinely worried about such things happen, you, and others would look to encourage people to feel welcome and recognized as Irish instead of goading them in to a negative action.

haha.. really? As opposed to reverting to the system that has worked for centuries. That assimilation of other cultures is the end goal. You're seeking to present a relatively new experiment in dealing with other cultures as being proven to be successful.. except judging by the changes in Europe. It hasn't. Over the last two decades, the majority of European nations were pro-immigration/pro-multiculturalism.... Now? Most European nations are changing their immigration and citizenship qualifiers, along with the rights of migrants while in their countries, because they've seen the failures of integration, and the social and the economic problems that comes from encouraging larger populations of foreign groups.

Why? Because people are still essentially tribal, and when you encourage people to retain their own distinct identity different from the native cultural group, they form pockets. Pockets that, due to increased immigration, increase in size to the point where they can push their own cultural norms on to the localised area, which in turn, either pushes natives out of the area, or forces them to conform to that alien culture. And in some cases, those alien cultures are so different in terms of values and behavioral norms to run directly opposite of the norms/values of the host nation. And then, violence and social unrest manifest...

I am genuinely concerned. I'm also concerned by attitudes such as yours, which seek to ignore the host of negatives that comes with mass immigration and multiculturalism. But thankfully, Europeans are starting to recognise the dangers of being fair, in a world populated by people who will take advantage of it.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118122366#Comment_118122366

You haven't been granted the refugee status you applied for, but you have been granted permission to remain - which may be temporary - on other grounds.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118130022#Comment_118130022

But it's more than likely permanent and they are entitled to apply for citizenship .

Yes