Gender neutral tees

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118123589#Comment_118123589

You haven't sufficiently explained why we can't do away with the gender bit and just treat women the same way as less abled male players. Let the women play the long holes same as the men and shure if they are crap at them they can go back to the shorter tee or "throw their clubs in the river" just like the men

prawnsambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118123612#Comment_118123612

I don't know who you're trying to persuade here, but I suggest you toddle up to any woman golfer you know and explain to her that in future she's going to have to play to pars set by men for men and if she can't do it her handicap will go up until she can. But until then she can slog it around the golf course in 120+ strokes and like it dammit.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118123806#Comment_118123806

You are talking BS now and trying to twist things. No one is taking away the course they have now just saying men can play on it and they will have equal access to all tees.

Don't pretend your stance is for the good of women golfers

prawnsambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118123920#Comment_118123920

I'm not 'pretending' anything. I just responded to your post in the spirit it was made. Flippantly. 🤣

Par72

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118123806#Comment_118123806

I am a woman golfer and I'm with breezy1985 on this. I don't think there should be separate slope ratings for men and women. I'm a scratch handicap index currently but if I was able to enter a competition playing off the other 3 "men's tees" and my playing handicap was adjusted accordingly to 5, 6, 7 or whatever I would be all for it.

prawnsambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118124184#Comment_118124184

That's fine. You can play of any tees you like. Just ask. I've already said this on the thread.

Edit: You don't even have to ask. Just rock up and let fly.

But according to the rules of golf, the ones we currently play under, that's not acceptable for competition and handicap. Until it is, we're stuck with what we've got.

As a matter of interest, have you ever done this and played off back tees with the men's slope rating applied?

spacecoyote

Would incorporating the course rating into the handicap calc (done worldwide but not here) help. You wouldnt have to change the pars of the course then as it would incorporate into the calc.

So if the course is a par 72 for men with a course rating of 72.9, it might then have a course rating of say, 79.9 for the ladies.

Conversely a par 74 with course rating of 74.3 for ladies from the reds, could then have a course rating of 69.9 for men (just picking arbitrary numbers here for illustration)

You wouldn't need to change par then, but would need slope and ratings for each set of tees for both genders

Par72

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118124202#Comment_118124202

I have played off the back tees but not in a competition or a scoring situation. Of course, I have the option to play off the men's tees whenever I want but not in a club competition which is 90% of the rounds I play.

callaway92

There shouldn’t be an argument against this. The archaic thoughts of men’s/women’s tees needs to go and they should only be known by colour

prawnsambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118124314#Comment_118124314

That's not what we're talking about here though. The rating system is separated into men's and women's ratings. So you could theoretically have four sets of tees rated for both men and women. But they are different. How different is hard to say as I haven't yet come across a set of tees rated for both (though some may well exist). I am waiting for a set of our tees to be rated for women, so I'll let everyone know once it's done.

But even more fundamentally to golf than ratings is the fact that pars are also calculated differently. I say fundamentally because this is something that's been around a very long time. I posted the chart from the current rules of handicapping that gives the recommended distances for pars for men and women on the previous page.

So some people are saying that the ratings and pars should be the same and handicaps adjusted to make up for that. I'm really not sure about that. Just on the basis of par calculations, our back tees would be par 80 or more if the recommended guidance were to be followed.

prawnsambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118124261#Comment_118124261

I know that's the situation. What I was asking (probably not very clearly) was what would have been your score with the men's ratings applied to your current handicap index. In other words, would you have played to your playing handicap with those ratings?

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118124202#Comment_118124202

That's exactly what we are talking about. Of course you are stuck with rules till you change them so change them

prawnsambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118124384#Comment_118124384

I think I'll wait for the people who are actually affected to lobby for this change if that's what they want. They certainly don't need men telling them what they want.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118124495#Comment_118124495

Ah there we go again pretending you are the champion of women golfers.

Tell me how many women need to ask and by what medium or what system can they apply for change

prawnsambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118124590#Comment_118124590

It's a WORLD handicap system. You think I'm arrogant enough to think I can influence that? Or are you?

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118124829#Comment_118124829

Who ever said me or you man you keep moving the goalposts. If you are going to reply to my comment actually reply and don't answer a question never asked . How many women need to complain and how do they go about it ?

Would it help if I used caps for certain words to help you understand ?

prawnsambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118124885#Comment_118124885

As I said but you didn't seem to understand is it's a worldwide system. I'll spell that out for you. This would have to be brought up by a considerable portion of the world. So we're talking countries, not people. And if you want to start the ball rolling, I suggest emailing Golf Ireland and then expanding that to the rest of the world. .

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118124995#Comment_118124995

Well if UK clubs are implementing it and we are talking about it then someone in the WORLD (as your arrogant fingers like to say) must have brought it up.

Your tone and language are very befitting of your name by the way.

Rikand

When I used to visit friends in Norway pre whs, there were four sets of tees and a recommendation of which set of tees a person should play off based on their handicap.

As a single figure handicap I used to play off the tees that were 2nd from the back however, my Norwegian friend who played off a high 20s handicap played off the most forward tees (the ladies basically) as he was quite a short hitter and always reaching the fairway with his tee shot was enjoyable to him.

There was no issue with any golfer picking whatever tees they wanted to play off and using that set of tees to count for their handicap. There was an 18 year old girl who played off scratch who usually played off the same tees that I played off.

Now I accept that this was Norway and they used the old style slope and course rating system but any golfer male or female could play any set of tees they wanted and have it count for their handicap. It should be the same here for general play rounds at least

prawnsambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118126465#Comment_118126465

What are UK clubs implementing? Have you a link?

prawnsambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118126603#Comment_118126603

I'm not familiar with the Norwegian system, but I wonder did handicaps differ significantly. If you take the woman golfer above who said she's off scratch, that handicap would have been achieved playing off tees rated and parred for women and based on different criteria than for men. So if she switched to playing off tees rated for men and using those ratings, her handicap index would go up quite a bit.

prawnsambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118128792#Comment_118128792

Never mind, found it. This is not what we were talking about. In fact I said it a few times although redesignation of tees and possibly changing the colour of 'red' tees or just referring to them by length have been suggested. But this is nothing to do with handicap golf or competition golf, it's just aimed at casual golfers who would pay green fees and play a round from whatever tees suit them.

It's even referred to in the rules of golf by the R&A here. The last paragraph refers to what I've been saying about ratings.

https://twitter.com/HartfordGolfC/status/1455492895033679876?s=20

The Big Easy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118128827#Comment_118128827

But isn't that the whole point, your play dictates your handicap not your gender or the tee.

If a lady wants to play off the whites, their handicap would adjust accordingly and if a man wants to play off the reds his handicap would adjust accordingly.

Like others I don't know why the course has to described differently. You say the courses have different para and different pars on certain holes. But if you just play the course that the tees dictate and your handicap adjusts accordingly.

I thought that was the whole point of WHS to allow more accessability for all and if it's not, what exactly was the point of all this change. If an above average length woman wants to play the white or back tees this should be the mechanism that allows them. Likewise if a below average or ageing male wants to play the reds.

prawnsambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118133736#Comment_118133736

The point of the WHS was to have the same handicapping system for the whole world.

The current rating and par systems are separated by gender. They could be combined, but if so, it's very unlikely that you'd have more than a handful of women scratch golfers. Even pro women golfers play on shorter courses than man. Usually in the region of 700-1000 yards shorter. Nelly Korda drives the ball on average about 275 yards. Bryson De Chambeau averages around 325. Those are the longest drivers on their respective tours.

joebloggs32

If the ladies played off the whites then their hsndicap index would reflect the incressed distance involved.

To play devil's advocate though, should the current distances for determining ladies par3, par 4 etc be applied as it would be important to establish this for stableford scoring.

On a slightly related topic, I heard of a club nearby that this year allowed their over 70s members play off their green tees with the relevant playing handicap while the rest of the competitors had to play off the back sticks in the Captain's prize!

prawnsambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118133886#Comment_118133886

I don't think they'd get the required benefit from the rating. For example our yellows are about 800 yards longer than our reds. The slope ratings are 125 and 123 respectively. So a woman playing the yellows off a handicap index of 20 would not get any extra shots from what she would have from the reds.

And in there on the yellows is a par 4 that would become a par 5 if rated for women based on the latest handicapping manual. So there would be a few adjustments probably depending on the length of the individual holes and also holes that required carries like over rivers or other hazards.

I see no problem with that approach. Our open comps can be won by either gender. You get the most points, you win.

Ivefoundgod

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118133836#Comment_118133836

I would tend to agree with a lot of your posts on this thread but this one I don't really get. Nelly Korda averaging 275 yards would likely put her in with the longest of hitters in your average golf club and while I appreciate that the majority of women golfers are unlikely to have anywhere close to her distance I don't really see that as reason to not allow ladies play off mens tees? Might be missing something there though.

EDIT: as I read that back I assume your point is that there's a 50 yard gap between Nelly and Bryson, is that replicated in amateur/club golf?

IMO I would be more in favour of some males playing off the forward and some ladies of the middle tees (based on ability/distance) I just think it would improve the experience for all levels of golfer. A scratch lady could play off the middle tees with a handicap of 5/6 or whatever it might be and be competitive(still would still allow a shorter hitting lady to play off her normal handicap off the forward tees if the distance is an issue) while a 25-30 handicapper male can play off the forward tees with a 20 handicap. It would allow players who have no chance of parring some holes actually par a hole which regardless of your level is a nice thing IMO.

spacecoyote

I think a few people here are fundamentally missing the point prawnsambo is making.

He's not saying that men can't play the reds, or women cant played the whites, he's saying that, in order to do so, you have to have separate sets of ratings and slopes for men and women based on the actualu guidelines that are in place from the Golf authorities.

Using my own course as an example, and using myself as a sample player.

I could play the blues on my home course.

Index 8.9

Slope 129

Yardage 6800

Par 72

Course rating 72.9

Which would give me 10 shots

Or i could play the reds (going by the current ladies taings, as they are the only one available)

Index 8.9

Slope 132

Yardage 5700

Par 74

Course rating 74.3

Which would give me 10 shots again. So I'd have the same handicap playing a course with 2 more strokes for a level par round and over 1000 yards shorter.

And a man win a higher index than mine could actually have a higher PH off the reds than the blues.

So, yes, it can be done, but the course needs to be rated accordingly to allow for it in practice

prawnsambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118134326#Comment_118134326

That's exactly it.

Your example is exactly what I'm getting at. I gave the other side above. But if I was to take our back tees as an example as you did, but for women, and based on a 20 index (I'm choosing that index as it shows the difference in playing handicaps better) a woman who would have 21 playing handicap off the red tees would have just 23 off the back tees. Two extra shots on a course that is now 2000 yards longer.

And looking at it the other way around, a man who could play to his handicap off the back tees would only lose two shots playing off a 2000 yard shorter course if he played from the red tees.

@Ivefoundgod Yes, that's the point I'm making. 50 yards a hole adds up to the guts of 1000 yards over the entire course. And that's pretty much the average difference between the tours in terms of course length. Is it replicated in amateur golf? I would say yes on average. I've played with women who could carry their drives about 180-190 yards in summer conditions. Others who would maybe get 150 in the air. I wouldn't know what the average is, but I assume that the tables for pars issued in the handicap manual is based on that.

Par72

My argument is that there shouldn't be different course ratings for men and women, there should just be one rating for each set of tees regardless of gender. I don't give fiddlers if this means there will be very few women playing off scratch, so what? There should be equality.