How much should a tradesman charge a day?

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118113967#Comment_118113967

Well I don't know exactly what you are cutting but a cheap blade might be a false economy if you come across steel in the concrete

Spook_ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118113946#Comment_118113946

So you are a contractor who goes around digging trenches and know what you charge which would be less than the people you asked OR are you a contractor with absolutely nothing to do with digging trenches and therefore shouldn't be complaining but instead either DIYing or shopping around?

Mad_maxx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118112504#Comment_118112504

tradesmen are significantly cheaper in the UK so not all down to wealth levels in a country , there has long been a culture of gouging amongst trades here . , they took a break from it for six or seven years post crash but most either fcuked off abroad or drew the dole and did a few cash in hand jobs

doing up a house in the UK costs far less than here

SupplyandDemandZone

Sounds about right to me at the minute. Lads who where clever enough to do a trades apprentice gig years ago when nearly everyone was going to med school or wanted to work in IT are raking it in now. Fair play to them as it's hard work.

tom1ie

Prices are nuts.

tiler quoted me 5.5k not including VAT to tile 24m2 walls and 6m2.

I have to supply tiles.

he supplies grout and adhesive new electric shower strips out old bathroom and refits.

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118114018#Comment_118114018

Never said anything close to that. If you want to make up stuff why don't you just think you won your imaginary argument.

I clearly stated why I would have a fair idea but you have provided nothing as to why you know better. Don't think there is much point engaging with you as you haven't said anything of value other than try to make it out like I have no idea how much work is involved.

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118114080#Comment_118114080

Yeah the whole time building sites were closed the tradesmen were raking it in and aren't playing catch up for the time they were out of work. Have you any idea how few med school places are available each year? Don't worry by the time people reach their 50s it won't be the people working in offices dealing with bad back, knees, shoulder etc... Life isn't a sprint it is a marathon. I am sure all these smart lads who went into the trades will properly fund a pension and live long after retirement. Milk it while they can I guess

Ray, in your OP you said Tradesmen are legally required to give an itemised quote, I asked earlier, what law are you referring to?

And, when you say the Tradesman is overcharging/gouging, what metric are you using to measure this? Is there a set price somewhere for the job you want done, or can a tradesman quote based on what value he/she puts on their work?

It seems you have a chip on your shoulder about tradesmen, when the obvious course of action is to get competing quotes, then go with the one you believe offers best value based on price and standard of workmanship.

Murph85

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118114099#Comment_118114099

if you can strip it all out yourself and project manage, you can save a lot. The money in bathrooms is off the wall... In terms of bathroom, tiling only wet area can save a fortune...

Jequ0n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118114300#Comment_118114300

Not sure what you are trying to achieve here. The thread has, as expected, taken the same course as the OP’s last one on the same topic. I wouldn’t expect logical explanations to make an impact on the fixed mindset.

redsheeps

New Boards is shocker - can't multiquote to make this more readable. Below is copy-pasted from your posts in this thread.

So to me it seems I would be paying over the odds per day but also overcharged on time.I am only asking about whether their quotes seem reasonable.

 

I am asking about how unreasonable it all seems as the labour is so expensive and over quoted.

 

Really only talking about labour costs and over quoting.

 

I understand that they don't want jobs like mine but they are saying that I will pay for 4 man days which would be fine if they were going to be here for that long.

 

I am not asking for charity just fair pricing and accurate quotes which they won't actually provide.

 

It is simply price gauging and people seem willing to accept it and even make excuses for it.

 

I understand supply and demand perfectly and I know that is what is driving prices up and it has a name which is price gouging.

 

I am perfectly aware the tradesmen have the upper hand at the moment

 

It is hard to beleive so many people think it is a fair situation where tradesmen do not pay taxes nor comply with very light legislation.

 

I know tradesmen and I know how they operate but people are making it out like they are being fair and reasonable are way off. He is overcharging for materials and padding out labour.

 

Yes logical but I think I know how the world works. I fail to see how asking what a fair days pay is conflicts with either logic or the real world. Did you state what was fair? Logically I think tradesmen are ripping people off and the real world seems to understand that while some care others don't care. Am I missing something?

 

I am not really complaining other than wanting to gauge how others felt.

Based on your posts, it does seem like you're complaining. Which is fine obviously, you're entitled to do what you want.

I don't really think people think it's necessarily a "fair situation" to use your words, but it's the current reality. Fairness is completely subjective. You have your view of what is fair but that isn't always going to align with the 'world's' view of what's fair.

One gauge of what's currently "fair" is to get multiple quotes for the job. That provides data to ascertain what is currently 'normal' for the job you want done. Whatever the current 'normal' is might not meet your definition of "fair" and if I am understanding you correctly, the current normal doesn't align with your view of fair, but the current normal is the reality.

I'm not sure what is going to satisfy you from this thread. If I understand your main point / question / reason for posting it's that you want to know if people think it's fair to be overcharged. Apologies if I have gotten that wrong. I can't speak for everyone but I imagine in general people don't want to be overcharged, but again, what is 'overcharged' is subjective. You may evaluate the work required as being worth X but if the people you want to come in to do that work value it around Y then that's technically not being overcharged because it's currently the fair market price (to quote Jeremy Irons). If you get give quotes and four come in around Y and one comes in at Z (say twice the average of the others), then you're likely being overcharged by the person giving you the Z quote, based on the current average market price (Y quotes).

My wife recently wanted to get some work done on the house. I wasn't too keen because I know we'll be paying a lot with the current lack of availability. We got three quotes to get a sense of what the costs would be (what's the current 'normal') and made the judgement that, whilst the prices were obviously high, they were the current market value of getting the work done by someone else so had to accept paying what we were quoted or do it myself. I'm not happy in general about the high costs, but I'm happy to know I'm paying the current market price for the job based on the current context.

Buddy Bubs

My company provides a service to other businesses, we have a number of different tradesmen. Always 2 men on a job. We charge 200 for callout and 100 per hour after that. Scheduled follow on works normally about 750 to 800 per day per team of 2.

We are out the door busy. Our tradesmen earn about 150 to 200 a day each in wages. They would have no expenses themselves.

But we are paying big money on vans, tools, equipment, sales staff, admin staff, premises, computer, IT, insurance, health and Safety, training, diesel, tax, rates, subscriptions, accounting, legal fees, list goes on.

If we dropped rates we'd be out of business fairly sharpish. And never heard we had to itemise a bill by law. We generate 20 to 30 invoices a day and more quotes than that, don't break them down at all. Nobodys business.

Heres a breakdown, 1000 euro to do the job, 0 euro not to do the job.

listermint

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118114263#Comment_118114263

You sound extremely bitter.

Why not ditch the day job and get into it since you have a vast back catalogue of experience you should be well able to setup a small construction firm and rake it in.

Murph85

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118113169#Comment_118113169

Ray the money in a way is probably over the top. But its not necessarily steady or guaranteed, you have to be good at what you do, to get regular work. For many jobs, it will be a lot of problem solving messy work. Often in crap weather and physical work. The work is worth a hell of a lot more than someone working behind a counter in a shop for example, in my opinion at least...

running around, pricing up jobs. Often they will throw up unexpected surprises. Up until a little over a year ago, I ran a business, that involved sitting on my back side and engaging my brain a lot. I changed to get involved in the likes of what you are talking about now. Where I need to engage the body and mind a lot. There is more money in it for me, BUT when self employed, there is way more responsibility, what if works drops off cliff? you arent paid bank holidays, sick days etc.

I built my own place, mostly on my own, I had to do this, because like you say, I was floored by the quotes I was getting. There were several people I needed, who turned out to be reasonable, but I spent a serious amount of time finding them and often did all the prep work myself, had materials on site etc all to cut down cost.

In your case, if you feel the quote is OTT, shop around more or like you say, do the work yourself or if you cant do all of it, do what you can to cut the cost. I agree that if you can do it yourself, it is way too much to be paying, to get the work done on your job, based on the quote. Often its the case its too expensive for you, but equally not worth doing for less for the company or individua.. You need to earn a serious chunk after tax to pay for it... I just weigh it up, if I can do certain jobs myself, often I will still get a price from someone to do the work, it may or may not be worth my while doing it myself...

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118114341#Comment_118114341

Yeah I replied back to the text and said I’d strip bathroom out and then fit the toilet sink etc.

no response.

Buddy Bubs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118114625#Comment_118114625

I'd have the same idea as you to save money and I have done myself, I gave a bit of plastering a go earlier this year had to get professional in to fix it when half done, but as a tradesman I don't think I'd want to be following on somebody's amateur work to be honest.

Buddy Bubs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118114543#Comment_118114543

Think of it this way, retail staff earn the guts of 100 euro a day which isn't that skilled a job, with zero overheads. And zero risk. Put up with customer nonsense alright but otherwise ok.

Tradesman would want to be well above that to cover illness, non payment, machinery replacement, not to mention selling their undoubted skill, 200 a day as a bare minimum and now that things are good and you are in demand, why work for the minimum? They are not a public service ( I am not nor ever have been tradesman by the way)

Murph85

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118114777#Comment_118114777

i agree, the cost of diesel now even is mad. When you have a van, maintenance, the DOE, insurance, repairs, depreciation. Business insurance. I would say the money is good, but its not what it appears on first glance usually... Also the amount of tools I am continually buying... Thank god for screwfix etc!

good point about payment too, hasnt happened to me yet. But I would say you can probably factor in a double digit percentage of pay, that you should get, but dont, for various reasons... Look, you do get some dream, easy peasy stuff. But often you will also encounter unexpected stuff and not increase the price, its just the nature of the game...

Buddy Bubs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118115190#Comment_118115190

We are business to business only so don't encounter too much non payment, biggest threat really is a business owing us money and going into liquidation. Has happened, although never burnt badly.

Costs money to collect money though, we have a full time credit controller ringing and emailing to collect money. And a full time accounts person generating and sending invoices and statements. All has to be absorbed into hourly rate.

enricoh

I heard an ad on nova today some crowd looking for qualified plumbers , e56k basic+ overtime+ van.

I wouldn't fancy having to pay that to a lad+ holiday pay prsi etc

Still stihl waters 3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118112465#Comment_118112465

No, the thing is you don't have to, if you want the job done you pay, if in your opinion its too expensive you don't do it, it's fairly simple, the quote is given and it's then up to you to accept it

Still stihl waters 3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118114099#Comment_118114099

So is he just tiling or doing the fit out, I might be taking you post up wrong

JimmyVik

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118114625#Comment_118114625

I couldnt belive the quotes i was getting for an en-suite.

I just (well about 6 months ago now) ripped out an en-suite. Tiled it and put back in the toilet bowl and a new sink and taps.

Took me 4 days on and off. Maybe 4 - 6 hours a day.

I didnt feel like doing it myself until I got quotes of €7,000 to €10,000 to get someone else to do it (not including the price of the tiles, grout, taps and skip bag). :)

That focused the mind. I think the total cost in the end was around €1200 doing it myself (with very nice tiles and taps).

mariaalice

Not everybody has the skills to do that and when you ripped off the tiles you didn't damage the wall or need to have to repair the walls before the new tile was put on, we were lucky three are too many doing the job we got done for them to get really mad with prices.

In the UK well manchester at least a whole new bathroom including shower and sanitary wear and tiles is about 7-9k so yeah cheaper.

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118114381#Comment_118114381

Such an odd thing for you to do. You went to the hassle of grouping comments made which are basically the same response to people making the same point. I didn't change my point and they added nothing new.

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118111940#Comment_118111940

Probably as reasonable as the rent levels. Everyone else is charging what the market will support, it’s unrealistic to expect them to do anything else.

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118114451#Comment_118114451

Did you read what I was responding to? I replied in the same tone as that where somebody was gloating about the money the tradesmen make right now while they ignored the other factors such as the fact the couldn't work for a period of time.

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118115698#Comment_118115698

You are the one claiming 2 people have to be about and therefore this is normal cost. Your only response is I don't have to hire them and can't justify the charge. I have had lot of tradesmen work for me and they do not come in pairs and I refute the suggestion you made. I doubt 2 men would be here for 2 days to do the work and actually do another job at the same time as is much more common than your claim 2 people need to be there.

SEPT 23 1989

they have to make hay while the sun shines

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118114543#Comment_118114543

I am self employed and know exactly how tax and overheads work. Right now I am setting up another business which was going to mostly give profits to charity as a result of some pricing that will take much longer.

You and I both know that tradesmen don't really understand all taxes but will do a rudimentary calculation and will mostly be if this is a vat job they loose 50% in tax. Materials are also vat free to the tradesmen along with equipment being tax deductible. Diesel is expensive but also a tax write off so they don't think that as they only pay 50% of the cost. Many do not do their own accounts or really understand their own cost but instead over charge to make up their perceived costs.

I completly get they are making hay while the sun shines especially with winter coming. It seems it needs regulating like any other industry to prevent consumers being ripped off. I personally decided not to continue in the building industry because it fluctuates so much and is so unreliable. The thing is tradesmen themselves are very unreliable and not very professional. The possibility of them turning up on time is basically nil. They do not given written quotes when they are required to do and over charge for materials and don't properly breakdown invoices with vat costs. Regulation is required to be enforced. There really isn't any excuse not to do this correctly other than a level of laziness and intentionally overcharging.

I had a plasterer insisted I needed to give him money to pay for the materials he needed before starting. He goes off and gets the stuff and I asked him for the invoice and he wouldn't give it to me. Eventually he told me where he bought it but in the short trip he had lost the invoice. So ring the building providers and get a price for what he bought, low and behold it was a third of what he said including vat. When it came to paying him I just deducted the over charge on materials and he went ballistic. He had absolutely no defense other than he wanted the money.

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118116765#Comment_118116765

Rent is restricted in many ways so why not labour costs? Actually many things are restricted on price. What little legislation is there on trades is not enforced. It doesn't appear to be unrealistic expectation for other industries what makes trades the exception?

Jinglejangle69

Company insurance, van insurance, van tax, van doe, diesel, van maintenance, tools, protective equipment, accounting fees, ongoing training fees, office equipment, mobile phone, banking charges, calibration of equipment, paye, prsi, usc, corporation tax.

To name but a few overheads.

But sure tradesmen are creaming it.

runawaybishop

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118116800#Comment_118116800

People are overcomplicating this with hypothetical scenarios Ray. Its pretty simple, he doesn't want the job. The price you are being quoted is what it will take for him to turn down or move out other work he has on.

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118117361#Comment_118117361

LOL. You really added a lot there. Ongoing training really made me laugh. I understand overheads and tax deductions a lot better thanyou with that list. They are mostly tax deductible and if a tradesman is paying corporation tax they should ditch their accountant as most are sole traders. You don't charge customers all your overheads on each job which is really what you are suggesting here. How many tradesmen really have full office equipment and how often do you think they replace it all? It is a laptop in the kitchen and a printer which most home have anyway even my 80 year old mother has this stuff and no need to replace it often maybe every 6 years but allowable on tax every 2.

You really over egged your cake there

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118117411#Comment_118117411

Funny that considering he rang me today asking if I still wanted him. He thinks I am willing to pay the price and wants to do it at an over inflated price. Simply you are wrong and using a standard response people use that they price the job not to get it as opposed to what is actually them wanting to overcharge. There is nothing hypothetical

runawaybishop

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118117448#Comment_118117448

Nah, he doesnt want it really - but he will do it happily if you overpay

Jinglejangle69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118117420#Comment_118117420

What's funny about ongoing training???

I have to pay 1200 euro for one refresher course this year.

There is 5 yearly training certs I have to get annually to enable me to be covered on sites to do jobs.

These all cost money. You go on about tax deductible. They still have to be paid with money that has to be earned.

Yes a laptop, printer, paper, invoice books, company stickers, stationary etc etc.

All costs money.

Glad you think it's all a joke.

You seem to think you are above tradesmen.

redsheeps

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118116740#Comment_118116740

I made an effort to understand what your getting at and you have no real response to it. You're repeating the same thing and for all your talk about how knowledgeable your are about business you don't seem to understand the basics of supply and demand. Are you sure you're not a carpenter bud, cause you're fierce chippy. Best of luck with your crusade.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118112465#Comment_118112465

Isn't that how many of the local authorities work? Except there might be two or more fellas watching on, propping up shovels. When they're not on a tea break.

But as regards OP, these tradesmen are not over charging as such. They're just giving a price, you either accept it or try someone else or DIY.

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118117494#Comment_118117494

Ridiculous comments. €1200 minus tax write off is approx €600 over 5 years so €125 a year. I never said these things don't cost money just that they are a lot less than you are suggesting. You seem to think I don't know how business works when it seems you don't. If we take the over charging I was quoted that would easily pay for all office expenses for 2 years and I am just one customer. Do you think they only have one customer a year? I have estimated and worked out project for way more money than these jobs and part of it is understanding overheads and taxes. What do you really think the overheads are yearly for a tradesman?

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118117505#Comment_118117505

I understand supply and demand. What do want a response to that I haven't said? Other industries are controlled if you think it acceptable to gouge prices with tradesmen then do you have no issue with others? I mean I can't put up the rent to the market rates so will you defend my desire to put up the rent or do you hold a hypocritical view?

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118117361#Comment_118117361

I’m not in the trades (I was) and I have

car insurance, car Maintainence, car tax, car Ntc diesel, office clothes , office equipment, mobile phone, banking charges, paye, prsi, usc.

to name but a few overheads.

why do tradesmen get away with creaming it?

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118117482#Comment_118117482

Great logic there. He doesn't want the job so he priced it so I wouldn't take him up but he then contacts me to ask if he can start. You are talking out of both sides of your mouth there. It makes much more sense that he wants to overcharge period no 3d chess moves here.

bucketybuck

I've only skimmed the thread, because who wants to read a load of rubbish from people who don't understand capitalism. Suffice to say that the idea of "overcharging" is hilarious, because unless you are talking about an alternator then it is a meaningless word.

Here is my price. Don't like it then don't buy it, but save me the whinging either way. If I can get my price ten times over from other customers then why would I give a **** that some random guy thinks he is special and that it should be cheaper for him?

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118117542#Comment_118117542

they are saying it is 4 man days when it is not and overcharging on materials by over 100%. That is simply overcharging I don't have to accept there quote but it doesn't change it is excessive. If I quoted a job and said it was 6 hours work and my rate is €100 per hour and I know it will take just 1 hour I am over quoting if I actually did it in an hour and charged the 6 hours I would be over charging. It is that simple and not really worthy of defending but it surprises me how many people want to. There is no way they would accept this from other industries

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118117638#Comment_118117638

Here is where you are wrong. They have to provide a quote before hand and if they don't provide what they quoted then they just broke a contract. I don't actually have to pay them the quoted price. So I could hire this guy and if 2 people weren't there for the full days I can reduce what I pay them by the law. They are required by law to provide a quote.

If you are fine with pure capitalistic greed then you are happy with other industries doing the same? If not you hold a hypocritical view. Don't like the rent increase then move would be OK with you? There are laws not enforced on tradesmen

bucketybuck

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118117684#Comment_118117684

You have no idea what you are talking about. Good luck with that.

runawaybishop

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118117599#Comment_118117599

Believe what you choose, I've worked in trades and overinflating the price for jobs you don't want/need is common.

bucketybuck

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118114406#Comment_118114406

"A giant engine in a factory failed. The factory owners had spoken to several ‘experts’ but none of them could show the owners how they could solve the problem.

Eventually the owners brought in an old man who had been fixing engines for many years. After inspecting the huge engine for a minute or two, the old man pulled a hammer out of his tool bag and gently tapped on the engine.

Immediately the engine sprung back into life.

A week later the owners of the business received an invoice from the old man for £10,000. Flabbergasted, they wrote to the old man asking him to send through an itemised bill. The man replied with a bill that said:

Tapping with a hammer: £2.00

Knowing where to tap: £9,998.00"

Jequ0n

@Ray Palmer Seriously, get some help. Your multiple threads on the evil of tradespeople are bordering on obsession. I’m not even working in trades but even I find it exhausting to read you pontificate about ethics and your inflated ego.