How much should a tradesman charge a day?

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118117702#Comment_118117702

And you can't even respond to the questions put to you or explain why tradesmen are somehow special when it comes to the law or why other industries don't do what they do. Your very old "anecdote" is just silly. We are talking about basic manual work. You would have no issue with a tradesman over charged and elderly relative?

3DataModem

To attempt to answer the question. 350 is perfectly fine for a contractor to do a small job.

If he worked a full 260 days a year (no leave, no nothing) that's 90k a year gross, and that assumes full occupancy, which is impossible when doing small jobs and / or quoting for jobs.

People are more demanding of quality work on their homes, which is driving up prices for quality tradespeople who are willing to take on domestic jobs.

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118117704#Comment_118117704

I don't doubt it but both aren't true at the same time

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118117745#Comment_118117745

Here is the solution to your issue, don't read it and go somewhere else.

JustJoe7240

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118117747#Comment_118117747

That's a loaded question isn't it? You have no idea what overcharging is? You have an opinion of what a fair price is, but it's just that. An opinion

bucketybuck

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118117747#Comment_118117747

I'm not convinced you are posting in good faith but regardless, it is funny that you can't understand some basic concepts.

Here is something that will amaze you. If I landed to your house and said that I wanted €10000 to do a job, and that the €10000 was to cover my time working and also 5 lapdancers to bring me lemonade while I work, well, I still wouldn't be overcharging you.

Its not overcharging, it is not undercharging, it is purely and simply the price I want for the job, which you are free to accept or reject as you please.

Children in the schoolyard selling candy to each other understand relative value better than you do.

enricoh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118117684#Comment_118117684

No offense Ray but I reckon you are the problem.

If I want a job done I ask how much, I don't care what the materials cost or if it gets done in less time I can dock x amount.

I charge accordingly or refuse to take a job if I get a sniff of a know it all!

Jequ0n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118117765#Comment_118117765

Oh I find it this fascinating to follow, because you started a discussion without being willing to take any other opinion on board. What’s the point?

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118117794#Comment_118117794

What is loaded about it? If somebody says the need 2 people to spend 2 days and they only need one person for 2 days how would I not understand that is overcharging. Are you saying you would be happy if somebody did that to an elderly relative? Is that that a loaded question because it makes somebody think of the person being ripped off?

Jinglejangle69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118117593#Comment_118117593

What sort of a point are you making??

You get paid a wage yes??

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118117826#Comment_118117826

Name a point I haven't responded to. Other opinions are not valid by being other and I responded and agreed with points. If somebody makes the same tired opinion that I have already responded to I am still responding and asking for them to justify that opinion and see if they feel differently when considering the same principle applied elsewhere. Have you got a point because mine is to find out why people are ok with it?

Why did you exaggerate that I made multiple threads on the same subject? I made 2 with one including shops and other rip off people and another about what people think is a fair days labour charge. So if you are enjoying it good but don't also say you don't like it. Decide engage or move on

JustJoe7240

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118117829#Comment_118117829

But the job isn't priced based on a person being priced at x/hour. You seem to have an issue understanding this concept.

As for the elderly question, Would i have an issue "overcharging" an eldery relative. If the person was quoted something then charged extra(if unnecessary) , that's overchanging. Yes I'd have an issue with that Is that what you're asking?

SupplyandDemandZone

You'd be doing very well to find a good tradesman for 200 quid a day. Sparks are getting a bare minimum of 280-350 at the moment for one of our companies Dublin based projects and plumbers aren't that far behind that price range. I know of one company paying their lads 400 euro for a days work installing air conditioning systems on a Sandyford based site as they under a very pressurised deadline target.

Nyero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118114263#Comment_118114263

A civil servants gets about 30 days leave and 9 public holidays. Nobody pays the tradesman for his 30 days leave of 9 public holidays.

So for 39 weeks of the year he needs to make enough in 4 days to pay for 5.

Then there are days spent going around pricing jobs he doesn't get, pricing jobs he does get, meet contractors, meeting accountants etc. etc.

So at best he has 4 productive days a week, so €350 x 4 = €1400 a week, €73K a year.

Deduct accountant fees, insurance, sick pay scheme, van depreciation, pension contributions, motor tax, bad debts, diesel, phone, NCT etc., depreciation of tools etc. etc. That could be €20K pretty quick.

So the guy is probably on an effective salary of about €50K.

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118117809#Comment_118117809

If you think that fine I doubt most do but again you won't answer a question that would show whether you have any empathy. School children learn empathy and you run scared when asked about it. So you have no problem if a doctor said he would save your life but it will cost all your money take it or leave it. I don't think you have the basic ability to see how you feel applied to everything would make life. I don't believe you are actually thinking about what you are saying.

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118117866#Comment_118117866

Never said they charge hourly just gave an example. They are charging for entire days when they won't be there an entire day.

Way to avoid the heart of the question. If an elderly relative got a quote where they are being told people will be working for longer than they will and then charged them as if they had been there would it bother you? You know precisely the over quoting and overcharging I am talking about.

It seems you accept if it is an elderly relative of yours then it is wrong but for all else it just acceptable practice. Do you see how that is hypocritical?

bucketybuck

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118117900#Comment_118117900

Its amusing that rather than admit you didn't understand the concept of pricing that you now want to effectively cry "Won't somebody please, please think of the children."

This isn't some pharma giant gouging the prices of cancer drugs, it is a tradesman doing a job at a house, and in that scenario he is perfectly entitled to set whatever price he damn well pleases, just as your old granny is perfectly entitled to decide not to agree to it.

JustJoe7240

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118117928#Comment_118117928

Just to clarify, You say the job was priced at 1400 quid. Then you say "After asking some questions to get to the labour costs it was €350 a day and says it will take 2 days with 2 people €1400" Did you deduce this yourself or did the contractor break it down that way? Because I've never heard of a contractor price this way.

Not avoiding the heart of the question at all, If the elderly relative you refer to was given a price, it's up to them to go with the job or get someone else. Same as yourself

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118117898#Comment_118117898

I am a contractor and the exact same situation as tradesmen when it comes to time off and sick days. You are really adding that all up wrong. Take an accountant, €150 a month tax deductible so costs approx €75 =€900 so within the first week of work year they easily paid for that. They pay less PRSI as they are self employed. They have use of the van outside of work but pay no BIK on and the cost of the van is deductible from their income so depreciation is actually against the company asset and the same with tools. They don't pay for their phone as a private person so that is a gain to to them but no BIK on it. Diesel is tax deductible as are all the expenses.

They gain from the expenses as do I. Would have a laptop anyway but it is a company expense so I buy a better laptop and same with my phone.

I don't know if you don't understand or trying to intentionally conflate expenses. If you think accounts work like you are suggesting it just shows you don't understand and from my experince tradesmen don't understand this as few do or understand their accounts.

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118117958#Comment_118117958

You brought up children not me! I certainly didn't say think of them just they have learned empathy which you appear not to have. You still avoided the question which is particularly funny. I price work all the time for much larger amounts of money and I understand it very well hence I notice hyped quotes. Again why are you so unwilling to answer questions put to you?

Green Peter

Nearly impossible to get anyone to do work for anything other than cash. It's time revenue acted and brought these people into the tax net the same as the majority of workers who pay their fair share and contribute to society.

Nyero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118117981#Comment_118117981

Lots of tradesmen have a personal phone and a work phone. Many more now have a card machine too, another cost.

They can't "claim expenses" for diesel, insurance etc. from anybody except add it to what they charge a customer.

Not sure what you are saying about an accountant, work a free week to pay him?

A tradesman needs a good van, its not a luxury.

No matter how you spin it, on €1400 a week you would need to allow about €400 to cover all the overheads, so ~€50K a year is not out of the way.

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118117980#Comment_118117980

It is intersting that you have never seen a quote done correctly. This is the basic legal requirement for a tradesman quote. He gave me a quote and I asked him to tell me the separate cost of labour and materials, how long and how many people.

Again avoiding the question. It happened the elderly relative paid for the job and you know it way more expensive than it should have but they paid the money, are you bothered? If a friend of yours was the one who did this to your relative, does that change your view?

You know why and what I am asking.

Do you mind other industries charging the highest during tight time?

3 questions for you, can you answer them clearly is the last question

Seanergy

You've generalised, so meaning has become lost. Lot's of indiciduals within professions are a law to themselves.

Your beef is you don't value their experience enough. Out of interest how much do you put on a standard hard working labourer? not cash, above board, 200 a day? Is there any tax pension in that 200 or PRSI? Most the lads break their bodies labouring. Oh it's just a consaw!

BTW did you offer to pay the lad for the qoute or did he ask?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118117684#Comment_118117684

Here’s a point you haven’t responded to:

For the third time, what law are you quoting that says a written or itemised quote has to be given? Either post that, or stop with this drivel.

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118118043#Comment_118118043

You need a better accountant because running costs of a van are completely deductible. You really don't understand maths outside of very basic principles. This is a huge part of the problem because you are way over exaggerating expenses and I think you genuinely believe it. How long have you ever spent looking at your accounts and understanding them? If your overheads are €400 a week with no tax deductions something is seriously wrong. I think you aren't actually aware of true costs because it would require you to really understand your accounts but most likely you just hand everything over to an accountant and they do it with you not understanding what is going on.

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118118090#Comment_118118090

go look up the small claims court and citizens advice. Call it drivel if you want but prove me wrong

Jequ0n

@Ray Palmer

“You would have no issue with a tradesman over charged and elderly relative?”

“If you are fine with pure capitalistic greed then you are happy with other industries doing the same? If not you hold a hypocritical view.”

This is literally the same **** you went on about in your last thread. No difference

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118117831#Comment_118117831

I’m making the point that your overheads are my overheads.

Jinglejangle69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118118256#Comment_118118256

No they are not.

I have overheads like a car and car insurance etc.

I also have overheads like van and van insurance etc.

You only have overheads like a car and car insurance etc.

I have double your overheads.

Totally ridiculous comparison.

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118118229#Comment_118118229

enjoy engage or move on

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118118220#Comment_118118220

So you have nothing to back it up?

A quote is not a contract, anymore than the advertised price of a packet of sweets is. It is an invitation to treat. You consider the price, then you agree to pay for it in return for the goods/service. That is when the contract is formed.

You want a job done to a certain standard and specification within an agreed timeframe, the builder quoted for it, you consider it then enter a contract by agreeing to pay for it. Whether the builder uses none, or 20 men to do the job, as long as it is done to the standard agreed in the timeframe agreed, you are liable for payment in full. You show me a case in the SCC that states otherwise please.

Written contracts are useful as they provide clarity, but you can also enter a contract verbally. So, either show me legislation that requires the type of contract you are entering into to be written, or stop with this crap about the tradesman doing something illegal by not providing an itemised quote.

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118118299#Comment_118118299

is the car for business? Others have cars for business which is their overheads. If you need two vehicle for work they are you business overheads. You really don't understand accounts and shouldn't talk on it

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118117684#Comment_118117684

Where did you get this idea that a quote with full breakdown of materials & labour is mandatory by law in Ireland? Yes, there is a whole branch of law concerning contracts. But contracts take many forms or no form if desired by the parties. For example we use a mechanic to service vehicles, I trust him to charge a fair amount for parts and a fair amount for his labour based on work over the years. Neither of us could be arsed about quotes as you describe, by law or otherwise. He just gets on with it, does the work, gets paid and everyone is happy with minimum of paperwork.

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118118365#Comment_118118365

I have the courts who back it up. It is more complicate then you are stating and I am not bothered doing that for you. I have argued this case in court and won

Sheep breeder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118118077#Comment_118118077

A con saw is a very simple tool to use in the op mind, go work one for a day in the wet and all that goes with it, most lads on ground work earn their money. With the the time Ray has spent here typing he would have the hole dug and pipe laid and saved a fortune. Recently in the local village a guy got a quote to cut his garden hedge and all waste removed at a price. Decided he was being robbed with the quote and hired a small hedge cutter and proceeded to cut away. Fell off the ladder and hurt his back over reaching and took two days to cut the hedge and had to pay for the second days hire and one day to clean up and had to get skip bags to put cuttings into and pay to take away.then had to go to the physio for six weeks with the back and pay him. The guy that quoted the job would have done it in one day with all the tools and importantly the knowledge and 3 times cheaper that all the hardship the cute fella got.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118118433#Comment_118118433

What legislation/Court ruling backs up your stated position that a quote must be written and itemised before acceptance? If you argued this type of case in Court, what legislation did you use?

We are talking about a quotation, not a contract, this is by no means complicated.

Ray, you have a price you think is fair, anything above it is overcharging, which is fair enough, that is an opinion, not a fact.

Nyero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118118164#Comment_118118164

I fully know what is deductible thanks.

If a tradesman brings in €70K a year then its very easy to see where €400 a week goes, roughly speaking:

Pension alone could be €100

Van depreciation / tax / insurance / maintenance / CVRT etc. €100

A decent illness insurance €20

Diesel €70

Accountant €20

That is over €300 before advertising, card machine, tools, phone, work gear, bad debts, public liability insurance etc. etc.

muffler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118118539#Comment_118118539

and dont forget the cost of copious amounts of tea or coffee

Nyero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118118559#Comment_118118559

More a breakfast roll and lucozade man myself.

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118118539#Comment_118118539

no you don't understand at all. Do you need diesel if you aren't working? Overhead is the cost while doing nothing. You already said you charge customers cost of transport so it isn't an overhead you are paid for it. You really don't understand

Is that accountant charge before or after tax?

Nyero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118118454#Comment_118118454

Its not just the con saw either.

You need to go to the hire shop, pick it up and return it after.

You need fuel in an appropriate container.

You need a dust mask, googles and ear plugs.

You need a second person with you in case things go wrong.

Ten of Swords

Threads where the op posts a question but then refuses to acknowledge anyone who holds a differing viewpoint rarely end well but when it gets to the point that the question asker starts getting passive aggressive and making petty digs at almost every other poster then it's safe to say the thread has run it's course.

Closed