Austria hits panic button.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118207830#Comment_118207830

The EU must not have been reading the news. They don't appear to have gotten on to the other countries or regions that have introduced similar restrictions aimed at unvaccinated only.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118208260#Comment_118208260

Czech Republic. Slovakia. Some regions in Germany.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118208319#Comment_118208319

Certain regions in Germany have additional restrictions for unvaccinated. You can google for it. Example below.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-59337955

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118208346#Comment_118208346

As I said, google is your friend. I can't keep posting links for you that can easily be found

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/czechs-slovaks-target-unvaccinated-people-step-behind-austria-2021-11-22/

The Czech Republic and Slovakia banned unvaccinated people from hotels, pubs, hairdressers and most public events from Monday after COVID-19 cases filled hospital intensive-care wards, and were mulling harsher steps to stem the resurgent pandemic.

https://apnews.com/article/coronavirus-pandemic-health-prague-czech-republic-netherlands-5cb2209dde767393d185c4df78b24095

Link to the document for Czech Republic in anticipation that that will be doubted too https://www.mvcr.cz/mvcren/file/2021-11-22-valid-measures-pdf.aspx . That is the official Czech Ministry of the Interior website

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118208416#Comment_118208416

That is irrelevant to the point I made which you contested. I will copy and paste the entirety of that post below:

The EU must not have been reading the news. They don't appear to have gotten on to the other countries or regions that have introduced similar restrictions aimed at unvaccinated only.

Some countries have introduced similar restrictions aimed at unvaccinated only. That Ireland has some of those restrictions already in place strenghtens that point, not diminishes it. I did not use the word "lockdown" in my post. I have no interest in getting into semantics.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118208597#Comment_118208597

Austria hitting some "panic button" apparently.

sozbox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118190417#Comment_118190417

It’s quite unbelievable given the mountain of evidence around the world that I have to say this but here is goes

the vaccine does not prevent transmission!

soon most of the cases and hospitalisations here will be solely in the vaccinated.

who you gonna blame then? The people not taking the vaccine are not responsible for its utter failure.

problem is, government and media have fallen yet again into the group think mindset and pinned all their hopes on the vaccines.

no plan b. No hospital capacity increases. Nothing.

Stop blaming your fellow citizens for a monumental government mess

sozbox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118190602#Comment_118190602

If the vaccines don’t prevent transmission then how will more vaccinations lower case numbers?

Lumen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118209565#Comment_118209565

It is misleading to state that vaccines don't prevent transmission.

sozbox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118209595#Comment_118209595

Vaccines do not prevent transmission

munchkin_utd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118209595#Comment_118209595

+1

They dont completely stop transmission but they do reduce the spread. A vaccinated person has a somewhat lower amount of virus, and for a shorter period of time. A vaccinated person is less likely if not much much less likely to get infected, and if they arent infected then they cant pass on the virus. The more links in the chain which are broken then the harder it is for the virus to spread.

The vaccine also has the nice side effect that nearly everyone who gets it doesn't get seriously ill or die - so it goes from a thing which is lethal to a thing which is an inconvience .

Its also becoming clear that a third dose is needed for longer term protection, and not just for pensioners, but thats nothing new with vaccines and it doesnt make the coronavirus vaccines totally useless like some claim.

Lumen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118209632#Comment_118209632

You can restate it as often as you like, and it won't be any less misleading.

growleaves

'They dont completely stop transmission but they do reduce the spread.'

Now who's being misleading?

Not only do they not completely stop transmission, we're specifically restricting vaccine-only venues in Ireland and the lockdown in Austria has been expanded to cover vaccinated people as well.

The public perception is already that they are a damp squib compared to what was expected and what Martin promised.

Without sterilising immunity everyone will still get covid even in a society with full vaccination of the population, which Ireland almost is anyway.

Nobody is trying to say that the vaccines are useless but a vaccine that does not prevent transmission (even if it reduces spread by x%) is a shaky foundation - to put it mildly - for a campaign of demonisation and exclusion, and forced actions.

hometruths

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118209707#Comment_118209707

A vaccine that does not prevent transmission is also a pretty shaky foundation for an immunization strategy. Should not even be called a vaccine.

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118209707#Comment_118209707

Hospitalisation cases are dominated by the unvaccinated.

When that ceases to be the case then restrictions on the unvaccinated won't be needed.

It's that simple.

And impossible to argue against.

hometruths

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118209729#Comment_118209729

That is probably not going to happen anytime soon as we are likely to follow the UK's lead and classify those with two doses as unvaccinated, then three, then four and so on and so on.

munchkin_utd

Indeed, we are all going to catch corona and either come through it or just die.

The problem are those who dont recover (nor die quickly) and clog up the hospitals - and they are mainly unvaccinated.

Markus Antonius

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118209729#Comment_118209729

You keep taking one snapshot in time and talk as though it's the definitive conclusion. Nobody is denying that the unvaccinated made up 50-60% of those in hospital at one point. But unfortunately for your agenda, this number is decreasing rapidly. It has already decreased to the point where they have stopped emphasizing it on the news - which in itself tells the whole story.

Wolf359f

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118209936#Comment_118209936

Have you the latest breakdown between the vaccinated and unvaccinated in hospital?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118209936#Comment_118209936

https://www.rte.ie/news/regional/2021/1123/1262584-covid-catherine-motherway/ .......literally uploaded an hour ago. So, no, they haven't stopped emphasising it. Also, you're being deliberately misleading with your choice of words, here.

"Made up 50-60% of those in hospital AT ONE POINT" insinuates at this being the case at one single stage, in the past. As if it's an anomaly, rather than a pattern.

The reality is that 54% of people admitted to ICU in the last two months were unvaccinated. It has been this way (or worse) for the last year. At a time when 90% of the population is vaccinated, these are stark figures. The unvaxed are outnumbered 9:1 in terms of raw numbers but still make up the majority of ICU admissions. If it was the other way around, the anti-vax brigade would be shouting it from the rooftops, claiming it as proof positive that vaccinations don't work. The fact they are ignoring it (and I include you in this) speaks volumes. You can spin this any other way, but the figures speak for themselves.

Pretty ironic, then, that you accuse the other poster of having an agenda.

faceman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118209707#Comment_118209707

Nonsense

Once again, I'm sharing this.

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(21)00648-4/fulltext

munchkin_utd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118210003#Comment_118210003

in upper austria which is one of the 2 regions which were first to pull a general lockdown, its 80% non vaccinated patients as of yesterday evening.

The title of the article is even "Unvaccinated are taking up the intensive beds in upper austria"

https://www.derstandard.de/story/2000131344305/ungeimpfte-belegen-die-intensivbetten-in-oberoesterreich

growleaves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118210141#Comment_118210141

What is your point? No one is denying that they reduce transmission relatively.

Do the vaccines give sterilising immunity? Why is it necessary to have early closures of venues where 100% of the clientele are vaccinated?

Also demonisation and use of force are moral choices, no amount of neutral data can make you do such things - you can only decide yourself that forcing people into poverty or imprisoning them is anything other than indefensible.

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118209936#Comment_118209936

It's been this way for months.

If you mean since the dawn of time (you probably do) then yes, it's only a snapshot in time.

What were you hoping to add with this? The stats are widely publicly available, every country sees the same pattern, are you denying all this? To what end, what is your aim?

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118210174#Comment_118210174

The data is not neutral. vaccination not only reduces the spread of the virus (which I assume you think is a good thing) but it also reduces the effects of the virus if you do catch. Which explains the disproportionate number of unvaccinated who require hospital admittance.

Markus Antonius

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118210074#Comment_118210074

You know you should read the content of the links before you post them if you are going to accuse people of misleading. That article gives no breakdown of vac vs unvac. It simply says half of ICU patients in Limerick have covid.

growleaves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118210219#Comment_118210219

All data is neutral. It's simply the statistical examination of a phenomenon. You can draw conclusions from it and then if you take a particular action based on those conclusions you are morally responsible for the action you have taken.

There's no determinism. There's only purposeful choices.

Lumen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118210220#Comment_118210220

So to repeat Wolf359f's question, which data are you using to support your statement that...

the unvaccinated made up 50-60% of those in hospital at one point. But unfortunately for your agenda, this number is decreasing rapidly

VillageIdiot71

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118210074#Comment_118210074

I'm not sure that catches it all, though. Just looking at ICU figures - presumably what we most need to avoid. (And happy to see better figures if such exist).

https://www.hpsc.ie/a-z/respiratory/coronavirus/novelcoronavirus/surveillance/covid-19intensivecareadmissions/COVID-19_ICU_Report_16%20Nov_2021_website.pdf

It still seems to be the situation that 80% of people admitted to ICU have underlying conditions, 75% are aged over 45. Even if all the rest are unvaccinated, and they are 50% of the total, I guess this means at least 60% of unvaccinated admissions to ICU are people with underlying conditions, and at least half of them are aged over 45.

How there's still apparently enough unvaccinated folk aged over 45 and/or with underlying conditions to contribute to numbers I frankly can't comprehend.

I think the blanket talk about "younger people" and "unvaccinated" is creating an impression that this is no longer a problem for older people with underlying conditions, when it apparently still is.

And I think there's a point well made above - the vaccine may reduce transmission to an extent. But if we felt that vaccine = transmission meaningfully addressed, we wouldn't be restoring controls over venues limited to the vaccinated.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118210239#Comment_118210239

the only conclusions you can draw from the "neutral data" is that vaccination reduces transmission and reduces the number of hospital admissions.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118210220#Comment_118210220

You really should read the content of posts before you try to tear them asunder. I never mentioned anything in that article giving the breakdown of vax vs unvax. I used it as a counterpoint to your incorrect assertion that they were no longer emphasising the vast discrepancy between the breakdown. They are still emphasising it, as evidenced by that article which was posted an hour before your post.

The rest of my post has nothing to do with that article. Please try again.

Markus Antonius

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118210003#Comment_118210003

The only breakdown I could find was this one that goes back to April that I think someone posted earlier in the thread:

https://www.hpsc.ie/a-z/respiratory/coronavirus/novelcoronavirus/surveillance/vaccinationstatusweeklyreports/Vaccination%20Status%20of%20ICU%20admissions.pdf

It isn't worth the paper it's written on as far as I'm concerned. Besides, the burden of the figures is not on me because I'm not peddling an agenda of proportions. Everyone should receive equal treatment regardless of vaccination status. And thankfully I believe this to be the case currently

Markus Antonius

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118210276#Comment_118210276

When I say emphasis I mean figures and statistics, not anecdotes and sensationalist headlines. They have the figures why aren't they giving them to us?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118210290#Comment_118210290

So you made the claim that the 50-60% figure was only valid "at one point in time", yet cannot back this up. Not only that, but you cite a paper which puts the figure at greater than 60% for the past 7 months, but claim it is nonsense? Why do you think this isn't worth the paper its written on? It was published by the people with access to such data, yet you are disputing the data even though you admittedly have no figures to back that up.

How do you expect anybody to take you seriously when your entire argument is built on quicksand?

Wolf359f

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118210290#Comment_118210290

You keep taking one snapshot in time and talk as though it's the definitive conclusion. Nobody is denying that the unvaccinated made up 50-60% of those in hospital at one point. But unfortunately for your agenda, this number is decreasing rapidly. It has already decreased to the point where they have stopped emphasizing it on the news - which in itself tells the whole story.

You are the one making a statement that the number/ratio of unvaccinated to vaccinated is decreasing rapidly, then you should have the figures to back up the statement. As you are the one making that statement, then yes the burden is on you to show where you are getting the figures from.

Otherwise you're just making stuff up for, well the only reason to suite your agenda or peddle lies etc... Probably hoping you wouldn't be called out on the facts and proof etc...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118210325#Comment_118210325

You just linked a report that gave you the figures, though, then dismissed it out of hand.......wtf are you looking for, exactly?

Between April 1st and November 13th 2021:.......369/589 (63%) cases reported as not having received a COVID-19 vaccine or were not registered as vaccinated

Edit: for the record, you have a pretty unorthodox definition of the word "emphasis". Still, the posts are there for all to see. The point was made that unvaxxed are disproportionately represented in hopsitalisations and ICU admissions. You claimed that this was a) only true at one point in time and b) declining to the point that the media are no longer pointing it out. You were wrong on both counts. Now you're changing the goalposts and inventing new meanings for words. This is incredibly dishonest, on an intellectual level.

Markus Antonius

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118210340#Comment_118210340

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118210351#Comment_118210351

If this needs to be explained to you then there is no hope for this debate going anywhere useful. The figures include a period in the height of the vaccine rollout period. Seeing as they haven't given a month-month breakdown of the figures, we can only assume that the 63% figure they give is a worst-case.

If it isn't a worst-case and this figure has increased then it is nothing short of negligence that they haven't notified everyone of this. So I am making an assumption that because they are not being transparent with the figures, the breakdown of vacc vs unvac in hospital is likely lower than 63% and in all likelihood is decreasing very rapidly given that immunity is waning.

joe40

Why do people think the medical profession are en masse lying to the population about vaccines. Every medic in every country is advocating vaccines. Please explain to me why they are lying

Markus Antonius

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118210351#Comment_118210351

No, you are shifting the goalposts adding edits to your posts taking my points out of context. The media are not giving us figures and statistics - they are giving us sensationalist anecdotes, nothing more.

VillageIdiot71

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118210412#Comment_118210412

I don't think anyone is saying folk are lying, just that there seems to be a risk of groupthink. So they've a problem knowing what to do or say, in a context where the relevant vaccines seem less beneficial than originally hoped.

Specifically in this context, this is manifested by this concentration on the unvaccinated as if Covid admissions to ICUs weren't still 80% people with underlying conditions and 75% people aged over 45.

I don't know what they think would happen if we increase vaccine coverage in the relevant age groups from over 90%. Would you say the current situation is as predicted by experts?

TomTomTim

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118210412#Comment_118210412

To be fair, you could apply this logic to any tyrannical society. We're not exactly living in times of openness and debate driven consensus. There was a lad who lost his job for simply questioning government methods a year or so ago, and stuff like that creates fear, and when there's fear people shut their mouths.

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118210398#Comment_118210398

The figures are reported on weekly (was 66% unvaxxed in ICU last week, making that 23x more likely to be unvaxxed in ICU then vaxxed).

Anyway, assume what you're saying is true, what is the objective in lying to people? What is the grand plan here?

Lumen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118210398#Comment_118210398

OK, you you wrote

the unvaccinated made up 50-60% of those in hospital at one point...this number is decreasing rapidly

And then when challenged for data to support this you wrote

The only breakdown I could find was this one that goes back to April...I am making an assumption that because they are not being transparent with the figures, the breakdown of vacc vs unvac in hospital is likely lower than 63% and in all likelihood is decreasing very rapidly given that immunity is waning.

So you made a strong statement of fact and then admitted it was an assumption based on your distrust of authority.

Let me help you out. The most recent report I can find is from RTE yesterday citing CSO data covering Sept and Oct.

https://www.rte.ie/news/primetime/2021/1122/1262461-unvaccinated-hse-hospital-admissions/

I think this is the CSO publication (one day RTE will discover hyperlink technology):

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/br/b-cdc/covid-19deathsandcasesseries36/

This is only a snapshot and insufficient to establlish a trend (it does contain some time series for cases, but not for hospitalisations and ICU admissions), but it is recent.

Fill your boots.

(apologies that is is unrelated to Austria but it seems all thread discipline has broken down on this forum)

Burty330

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118210412#Comment_118210412

Luke o Neil lied during the summer when he stated with authority that vaccines would prevent transmission. He didn't have a clue what he was talking about. He made that false statement because somebody told him it was the right thing to say. All the other medics just go along with the narrative, they don't think about it, to them it's just about following directives

Chips Lovell

During September and October, 54% of ICU admissions were not vaccinated. Number of vaccinated adults was above 90% in the same time period.

As of November 4, 52% of ICU admissions were not vaccinated

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118210578#Comment_118210578

A ICU emergency consultant was on Claire Byrne live last night. In A&E at present they separate those with COVID symptoms from other at intake. Then they question them As to when symptoms started, if they had a COVID test already and if they have a positive result are they vaccinated or in vaccinated. Most of those not vaccinated will need much more treatment than a vaccinated adult and a large portion if the unvaccinated will end up in ICU. Her words. Anybody can listen to the interview in CB live.

Professor Luke O Neill was on last night as well. The booster has taken Israel out of trouble. Not only that you development 25 times more antibodies from the booster than from the original second shot. His advice is for government and the HSE to concentrate on getting the boosters out there. He thinks those with Jansen should be prioritized. The boosters are giving huge immunity after 7 days. The results were staggering in Israel after two weeks.

Just came across this from another ICU consultant

https://www.rte.ie/news/regional/2021/1123/1262584-covid-catherine-motherway/

VillageIdiot71

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118210628#Comment_118210628

Good to highlight the data. But aren't there some other salient points?

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/br/b-cdc/covid-19deathsandcasesseries36/

• "Almost 84% of those who contracted COVID-19 in September and October and admitted to an ICU had an underlying health condition
• People aged 65 and over accounted for 50% of all those hospitalised through the whole period of the pandemic
• Almost all (97%) of those who contracted COVID-19 in September and October and admitted to an ICU and who reported being vaccinated had an underlying health condition
• Around 28% of those who contracted COVID-19 in September and October and admitted to an ICU were not born in Ireland, and 90% of those reported being un-vaccinated"

This seems to be a very precise issue (still) involving people with underlying conditions. It suggests throwing a blanket over the unvaccinated isn't actually speaking to the problem. Why would people with underlying conditions still be featuring in large numbers? Is there any significance to the the level of non-natives (maybe not, but it was an aspect I was completely unaware of)?

Saying "Over 50% are unvaccinated" (when someone else, incidently, was saying it was 66%) isn't hitting the nail on the head, when we know its overwhelmingly people with underlying conditions. Why are people with underlying conditions still not availing of the vaccine? Not a question I've seen answered by any expert, despite it clearly coming out of the data.

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118210607#Comment_118210607

There's no point with Markus, they just come back with other tangential posts instead, you're better off going down the rabbit hole and trying to find out what they think it all means. I don't believe there is any danger of misinformation there as it's all too fantastical.

Markus Antonius

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118210679#Comment_118210679

It's bad that the Village Idiot is now the voice of sound reasoning and logic 😛

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118210464#Comment_118210464

Nope, sorry, that's not true, and just because you say it is, doesn't make it so.

They media HAVE given us figures. You have said they are completely inaccurate, yet have failed to provide accurate figures (indeed you admit you cannot find any) and you also cannot say why they are inaccurate, other than some vague mistrust due to lack of transparency........What is "369/589 (63%)" if it isn't a figure and/or a statistic?

You made two claims. Both were wrong. When this was pointed out to you, you changed your definition of emphasis from the widely accepted meaning of the word and applied your own interpretation. Even this new interpretation is wrong, yet you are still claiming you are in the right.

Do you accept that both of your assertions were incorrect? If the answer is no, please explain how they are incorrect, please, otherwise you are demonstrating to everyone else that the only reason you're claiming your statements were correct is to save face and your position is held without any basis in reality.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118210398#Comment_118210398

That's an awful lot of assumptions, there chief, and you know what they say about the word assume......

Why would you assume anything about numbers in the face of cold, hard data surrounding those numbers?

Why do you need a month-by-month breakdown, what difference does it make to the overall percentage?

Why are you making assumptions that they are not being transparent, when they have provided the figures for people to see? Why also are you assuming they're decreasing rapidly, given you have zero data to back that up other than some sort of hopefulness that you're correct because it strengthens your argument? I

You are deliberately pooh-poohing anything that disproves your point, for no good reason other than the breakdown is not to your liking and inventing stuff that backs up your stance out of thin air, because it doesn't exist. In fact, the opposite is true and data exists the DISproves your point. If you automatically assume that all figures provided by those with whom you disagree are false, isn't that the definition of having an agenda? Why then would you accuse others of that which you are also guilty?

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/more-covid-19-cases-among-vaccinated-but-benefits-of-jab-clear-says-expert-1.4733525

"More than half (54 per cent) of all of those admitted to ICUs in September and October said they were not vaccinated though the numbers of vaccinated adults have consistently been above 90 per cent in that time frame"

So, twice as many vaxxed in hospital vs unvaxxed, in terms of cold hard numbers, but the unvaxxed are outnumbered by 9:1 in the general population. Conclusion: you are 4.5 times more likely to end up in hospital if not vaccinated.

When we look at ICU figures, that translates to an even bigger factor. given that 54% of ICU are unvaccinated, using that same ratio of 9:1, you are 10 times more likely to end up in ICU if not vaccinated.