Fuel Price Protest Dublin 24th November

eggy81

Truck drivers should strike against the whole country if their lively hoods are at risk. We’re the ones who employ them.

whisky_galore

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118215334#Comment_118215334

So. How many cars were overturned and burnt out today? Many killed and injured?

Bit of a tame dog-kicking isn't it?

Irish people rarely experience a full-on protest.

MrMusician18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118215312#Comment_118215312

Do you think the truck drivers care if prices go up for the consumer?

Since the price of fuel is roughly the same for everyone, why would it rising put them out of business? It just means they'll have to charge more, but every haulier will have to do the same.

If a company is going into multi year contracts and paying the current market price for fuel without hedging then that's their own stupid risk they've taken.

Blue4u

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118215483#Comment_118215483

But the country doesn't employ them. Companies employ them. If you look at the logistic companies that employ them they are all turning a healthy profit.

The problem truck drivers have is people buying diesel cars by the truck load so to speak. So all the people sitting around the country driving diesel cars are at fault because you till find 90% of them should not be in a diesel car. The only reason they bought it was because it had cheap tax. If all of those cars got taken off the road and diesel was left for the purpose it was developed for then trucks would have no issuse

eggy81

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118215591#Comment_118215591

Agree on the diesel cares alright. So many people toddling around small towns and in cities in diesels doing such little mileage that it’s costing them more than a petrol would. For the sake of a couple of hundred a year in tax.

at the same time if haulage companies/drivers did strike for even a short while you can be almost guaranteed some sort of resolution probably short term would be found fairly quickly from either the companies employing them or us/ the state.

( I meant by us employing them that it’s the general public’s consumerism that ultimately keeps them in work)

Blue4u

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118215620#Comment_118215620

They should spilt off diesel for commercial use and reduce the price on it. I know they can get VAT off it but if this is a problem just give them access to agri diesel or something like that.

Private diesel stays as it is. Really they should have done that years ago and then totally screw the private user, like myself. I had to pay 135 for a fill of diesel the other day. 😫

LillySV

Fair dues to them making a stand .. prices of everything with increase dramatically if govt continue to get away increasing taxes on fuel , particularly at a time when fuel prices are up due to supply … there was no logic to it ..

and for those that say the protest does nothing … already resulted in the issue being brought up the dail … wouldn’t have happened otherwise as govt are well able to pretend “nothing to see here”

eamon Ryan is king of that .. refusing to answer questions regarding his area on numerous times

MrMusician18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118215687#Comment_118215687

I think they also get a duty rebate as well.

dloob

If they have problems with the price of fuel they should take it up with the guys who set the prices https://www.opec.org/opec_web/en/contact/356.htm

Pussyhands

Some of the lads in this thread, if they were in charge in 1916, Boris Johnson would be our PM now.

Blue4u

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118215762#Comment_118215762

I am sure I will regret this, but what has 1916 got to do with this?

Also you do realise 1916 was a failure. It didn't bring about Ireland independence.

Thinkingaboutit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118215710#Comment_118215710

C'mon nearly all of the price is excise, close to 60%.

Pussyhands

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118215808#Comment_118215808

People like you think protests are futile.

My point exactly about 1916. It didn't change anything right away, but it paved the way for change and was influential in starting the movement.

Blue4u

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118215819#Comment_118215819

It is similar to the price in Europe, cheaper than a lot of places.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118215762#Comment_118215762

Definitely the stupidest thing I'll read today, well done 🙄

Blue4u

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118215830#Comment_118215830

Protests are good. Driving like a clown at slow speed around Dublin is idiotic and has been shown over multiple times to achieve absolutely nothing.

At this stage protestors have no imagination, every clown in the country wants to protest, has a meeting

"what will we do lads"

"let's block the M50 at rush hour"

"is it not blocked already at rush hour"

"Yes but we will block it more"

"Excellent idea"

If you had a group of primary school kids they could come up with it.

MrMusician18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118215830#Comment_118215830

Ones like this are always going to fail. Protests that don't engage people to convince others that something needs to change but instead are be disruptive to strongarm change to get you to go away have always failed in Ireland.

I cannot think of a single instance of blocking the city that has resulted in a policy change.

Blue4u

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118216340#Comment_118216340

Yet every single time someone wants to protest they do the exact same

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result

MrMusician18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118216263#Comment_118216263

Nah, primary school kids have imagination at least.

blackwhite

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118214753#Comment_118214753

Same logic applies to the food & drink as well (I spent over a decade working in an international energy major, and I've seen the numbers for quite a few networks that we bought, bid on or sold over those years).

One you decide the level of service / operation, then costs of running a service station are relatively fixed - other than your cost of sales - the gross margin generated from both the fuel and non-fuel operations both go to pay the fixed costs, and to generate net profit above and beyond that.

Applegreen - not a company I dealt with - working off public info from their annual report - made EBITDA of €140.4m in 2019 - their Selling&Distribution costs of €300m. Their GP from Fuel was €141.5m and the GP from non-Fuel was €430.5m. The non-Fuel operations - for the model of stations Applegreen operate - would make up at least half of the €300m S&D costs (staffing for the food/bev operations and additional floorspace needed - and Applegreen tend to go for a high level of food/bev service to justify mainly selling very high margin food/bev products). Go to an unmanned fuel operation and they'd reduce those costs even more. There's plenty of profit to be made from both streams of the business - both could be profitable if operated on a standalone basis, but both are highly complimentary to the other so it doesn't make sense to operate a service station without a food/bev offering unless going down the super low-cost unmanned route like DCC and Maxol have experimented with in Ireland.

In terms of your comment on margin transport fuel retail doesn't work on the basis of % margin - it's assessed on cent per litre margins. Underlying price of oil (and the tax elements) are too volatile to operate off percentage markups. Take whatever your cost of product is, and then try and achieve your target cpl margin on top of that. It's a volume business when selling fuel. Average fuel per customer is typcially around the 30 litre mark - compared to the food/drink products when average spend is more price driven.

Podge_irl

The protests are directed in completely the wrong direction. If it is not economical then the issue is with the prices paid for transport and that is where their ire should be directed.

Jinglejangle69

Carbon tax was the straw.

They should have held off until inflation stabilised in a few years.

Moron greens and their fantasies.

MrMusician18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118216694#Comment_118216694

And then what? There is never a palatable time to increase taxes.

Anyway, the increase is actually quite small, but what is important is the direction of travel. If the population believes that the cost of diesel is going to be ever more expensive as time goes on, then they are far more likely to switch to higher efficiency vehicles now. That's true for haulage as well.

Blue4u

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118216694#Comment_118216694

Carbon tax was introduced and back by all political parties, along with the Paris Agreement

The Greens agenda is to push everyone onto public transport which would in fact be perfect for the lorries who are protesting today becaue

1. It would free up the road

2 It would mean less diesel cars which would mean less fines for diesel and cheaper cost for running.

At this moment in time the Greens should be what truck drivers want in power.

The biggest problem I have with carbon tax is that it is supposed to be used to reduce carbon in Ireland but in reality it is thrown in with the rest of the tax take and doesn't help the environment at all.

whisky_galore

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118216694#Comment_118216694

The tax doesn't nothing but is a stick to beat people with, esp those with no affordable alternatives on offer, and concocted by the already well-off.

Green policy is all stick and (ironically) very little carrot.

Pussyhands

The greens are a joke and are just as much to blame for the current state of the country as the others. They were propping up the bent FF for years and now they're propping up FG and FF while bringing in their own agendas that will cripple the country while areas the size of Mayo and Galway are being deforested in the amazon!

Blue4u

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118217069#Comment_118217069

The Greens got kicked out in 2011 and had zero politicians in government. They had 2 after 2015 and only in 2020 did they win enough seats to go into government with FF/FG as a minor party. Maybe you can explain how the Greens are to blame?

andrewfaulk

No one talking about the elephant in the room here.. If hauliers are at risk of going bust, why did the IRHA refuse to back the protest..

because fuel is a cost of business for a haulier, if it increases then pass on the extra cost to your customers.. which is what most IRHA members have done..

ironic that a lot of the hauliers involved in today are the same hauliers who would cut each other’s throats over €10 on a load..

The solution is simple, stop working for **** money, and turn down the work from someone who won’t pay, now is the time of year to push the rates up with the pre Christmas rush.. The days of getting €150 for a container delivery around Dublin need to end..

Not that all of the solutions lie with the hauliers, the freight forwarders and wider freight industry need to up their games too.. Far too many operators that rely on their name to win business while paying **** to their subcontractors and doing nothing to add value

MrMusician18

I see there's a rolling blockade of the M50 southbound now. Slow handclap for these geniuses.

Hotblack Desiato

Blocking the Luas, absolute scumbag carry-on.

al_nix

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118217069#Comment_118217069

The peat scandal shared on the same page is the "organisation" for this protest was not the greens it was an NGO that want to protect Ireland's natural heritage and biodiversity. The reason the carbon tax now is a shock is that it was not phased in after Kyoto in 1992 when it was clearly going to be necessary. Back then the greens were nowhere near power (they had 3 TDs). And our government at the time for fear of being out-competed by countries that didn't and because the politicians were not brave enough to follow the science or plan more than 5 years out. Science hasn't changed. Any country that had started back then would be streets ahead now. The exact current issue is more down to oil price and OPEC but it shows where the carbon tax will take us over time and given Diesel engines will be banned in the future people need to plan. Also once again as has been said many times in a free market if your costs go up and so do everyone else's you should put up your prices.

Pussyhands

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118219735#Comment_118219735

Ireland is insignificant in the global emissions standings.

The mighty Joe Biden didn't even sign the declaration to phase out coal energy production.

Irish people put under all this extra stress and hardship and for what? When the fate of climate change depends on America, China and India mostly.

The funny thing is Europe etc are all for improving living standards in the 3rd world countries. What happens if they come out of poverty? They'll be consumers like the rest of the world going on holidays, buying cheap **** from China etc.

Complete waste of time!

cnocbui

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118216898#Comment_118216898

The Greens thought CO2 - which is plant food - was a bad thing, so they waged war on petrol powered vehicles and used the tax stick to beat people with and mostly eliminated petrol powered vehicles from the country, replacing all of them with diesels.

Apart from nox, Diesel emissions contain the most potent carcinogen ever discovered:

"The compound, 3-nitrobenzanthrone, produced the highest score ever reported in an Ames test, a standard measure of the cancer-causing potential of toxic chemicals."

CO2 is not a human health hazard, but both nox and 3-nitrobenzanthrone are. The Greens and their policy are responsible for the deaths of Irish people, if the epidemiologists pronouncements on deaths due to lung diseases blamed on diesel emissions are to be believed

Now fast forward to 2017 when that fool Ryan sheepishly admits he regrets these policies, but the Greens and the government have done nothing to reverse what hey admit was bad policy. The stupid imbalance in excise on petrol vs Diesel still exists, even though the Greens and government have admitted they were wrong. It bears repeating that people have died, and continue to do so, and the government has not reversed it's punitive tax policy against petrol.

Carbon taxes are wrong and pointless and the government can not be trusted on their 'eco' BS because they don't understand the science and are incompetent.

I'm with the hauliers on this one.

cnocbui

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118219735#Comment_118219735

BS - carbon taxes started in 2008 in the war on petrol.

Spook_ie

Also once again as has been said many times in a free market if your costs go up and so do everyone else's you should put up your prices.

Tell people that when their milk is €2 liter or their eggs €3 for six

highdef

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118220609#Comment_118220609

They seem like reasonable prices for the current time, especially if you take into account inflation over the past 20/30 years. 50c for an egg is good value. 50c for a glass of milk is good value. The current prices are too low.

magicbastarder

i read a claim that the price of a litre of milk is the same now as it was in the mid 90s; i.e. there has been no inflation on milk.

i've not been able to fact check that claim though.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118220070#Comment_118220070

your argument falls down on the fact that regardless of what america and others do or don't do, the facts and evidence don't change and the effects don't just go away for the rest of us.

so even if america and china do nothing now, their costs of having to deal with the effects of climate change will be multiples of the cost if they dealt with it now, and while they would be struggling under the effects and the costs, ireland by starting now would be in a better position to deal with the effects that will come.

the effects are unavoidable, but being in a better position to deal with them via starting now, + the benefits of cleaner air, more efficient use of everything, will not just make a huge difference to ireland, but will ultimately save money and bring down costs long term.

it is the do nothing cause china nonsense, that is a waste of time, and that would ultimately bankrupt ireland and irreparably damage it.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118220267#Comment_118220267

the greens encouraged diesel cars based on evidence that turned out to be untrue, that was not the fault of the greens but manufacturers.

carbon taxes work because they encourage shifts to more efficient foorms of power, we already know this because it did it with diesel dispite the later findings meaning we should have stayed with petrol.

the government understand the science, it is why we are going down the route we are, because in the long run it will be cheaper to start now to clean up.

the hauliers are not going to get what they want because they have always known diesel prices would go up and the prices are now down to the whole sale price, so like the rest of us they are going to have to plan ahead and look at their options, hedge against fuel prices in the mean time and just put up the prices where needed which will be unpopular but ultimately necessary as they have been operating on unsustainable margines for a long time now.

Blue4u

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118220267#Comment_118220267

The Greens and loads of other countries in the World took the advice from experts. What the greens and other countries didn't know was car manufacturers lied and actually made illegal devices to fool the system into thinking the car are cleaner than they are.

The fault lies with the car manufacturers and not the Greens. Amazed that people in Ireland blame a political party. Look at what happened in the US, was the class action from VW owners against the government or the car manufacturer? plus VW was just the tip of the ice berg, what happened since was all car manufacturers had the same thing going on.

Also the plan for the diesels was to reduce tax on newer cars. So tax on a 1.6TDci Mondeo was 700 euro in 2007 and it was 333 in 2008 because it was supposed to be cleaner. What the greens and nobody could expect was the Irish people throwing away good cars to get cheap tax. Paying thousands of euro's to upgrade the car to reduce tax by a couple of hundred a year.

Even recently with all the problems with diesel Ireland had truck loads of cars comign from the UK, all diesel, over to Ireland beause they couldn't sell them in the UK. Yet the Irish person bought them up. Crazy stuff going on/

I am not against the hauliers by the way, I think slowing traffic in Dublin is a stupid way to protest and in reality the hauliers issues is not with the government but with the population who are driving around a diesel car in the city centre of Dublin

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118220692#Comment_118220692

Its marginally cheaper actually.

Dunnes Stores were selling a litre of milk for 56p (71c) in February 1994. That was the cheapest available anywhere at the time and caused lots of complaints from farmers/dairies about below cost selling

Aldi's own-brand milk now is 67c a litre in its cheapest form (3L jug). This is also below cost selling I suspect.

71c inflated from Feb 94 to Oct 21 would be 117c now.

Pussyhands

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118221088#Comment_118221088

The funny thing is they're not even trying to stop climate change, just limit it to 1.5 degrees per year or something. So all this heartache and the cities are going to be underwater and the ice caps disappeared anyways

Blue4u

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118220692#Comment_118220692

That because the large super stores have pushed the price of milk down. This has pushed the small farmer out of the market and now only the bigger farmers can make a profit.

It's the same across the board, the price has stayed the same but the margin has increased for the store/distribution and reduced for the farmer. Of course distribution will make the excuse that diesel has increased in cost but the profit margins these companies make would suggest not

al_nix

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118220267#Comment_118220267

Let me be clear I support everyone in the supply chain given that there is a pandemic and a chaotic transition to a net0 future.

I agree switching from petrol to diesel was lunacy in part based on fraud like diesel-gate. The point I was making was a shift away from fossil fuels completely should have started in 1992. Again I agree in any way allowing a climate-based goal to justify a move from petrol to diesel was if you accept they believed the diesel-gate lies a useless gesture and for anyone who knew about the true emissions a massive fraud and abuse of public trust.

In a representative democracy, I would like to think the people could protest high fuel prices and the government would know this is a reaction to an acute short term impact and not a statement that they can burn the planet. I would like to think our representatives would know lowering them in the long term when ICE engines will be banned is not a solution even if they do offer temporary relief now it needs to be part of a longer-term plan to transition away from fossil fuels. I just don't have that faith in our representative's ability to balance this given that the majority was so thin they nearly had an existential crisis and when the pandemic happened and they were popular after a decent early response they forgot about addressing the issues that led to that. I think we need to ask for something in the same ballpark as a long-term solution upon which campaigners for a green economy and hauliers can agree. I know finding that solution is the job of ministers and TD's again I just think if the issue is brought to them as you need to fix climate change and reduce fuel prices they may have a failure of imagination in finding a solution.

I understand that the USA and China are required to fully sort out the emissions component of climate change but they will join in when enough other countries show it is possible and the USA being back at the table after the trump years sadly counts as progress. the EU as a whole and Ireland in particular as an economy based in Hi-Tech service jobs and quite a lot of agriculture has a lot to gain by being the providers of sustainable technology and expertise and it is doable. We managed to ban CFC's eventually. Given the impact, if we don't sort out greenhouse gasses I think once someone shows the way the world will meet this challenge. Right now that would be Norway and Iceland we don't want to miss this opportunity to lead.

So to our current state, the current % of the cost of a litre of fuel that is tax is very similar to what it has always been. The tone-deaf timing of the slow increases in carbon pricing (a way of making the market find a better way that does work if done sensitively) at the same time OPEC is holding the worlds oil supply to ransom and making the truckers protest before engaging when the IRHA had already said after Christmas they may protest is buffoonery of the highest order. A solution that achieves both climate goals and helps people maybe something like when the oil price goes over a certain threshold as compared with historic pricing, an enhanced rebate is made payable to all quarterly and a greater rebate payable as a grant towards a hybrid or fully electric vehicle for businesses along with a topping up of funds for private car grants for electric. Both to help people cope with the cost and try to find a solution for the long term. The government can't control OPEC and once a tax is taken off fuel it may never go back on also if it does the cost of taking it off and putting it back on given the way government IT and fuel stations are set up may mean people don't actually see the reduction in price they need.

If we can find a way to ask the government to help people with the transition and tackle climate change we can combine the campaigns and they might notice for more than a day.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118221672#Comment_118221672

the reality is doing nothing will mean that on multiples of the scale, costing multiples of the money to deal with, causing multiples of the problem.

Hotblack Desiato

The fault lies with the car manufacturers and not the Greens. Amazed that people in Ireland blame a political party.

I can certainly blame the Greens for being so naive and gullible. But they ideologically oppose nuclear power, so they're not interested in science, just feels.

I can blame them for bringing in "chape tax" on big Mercs and BMWs, while owners of small, efficient and CLEAN petrol cars got totally screwed on the cc tax system - and still do!

Cycling isn't the answer unless you're rich enough to live in the inner suburbs of Dublin. Everyone else needs good public transport - but all infrastructure projects in Dublin are now on indefinite hold and may never happen.

Great bunch of lads... did we not learn from their shenanigans over ministerial pensions when they were propping up FF while the country fell apart?

elperello

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118221672#Comment_118221672

1.5 c. explained.

https://www.ipcc.ch/sr15/

magicbastarder

but all infrastructure projects in Dublin are now on indefinite hold and may never happen.

https://www.independent.ie/regionals/dublin/fingal/nta-says-it-does-not-plan-any-new-delays-in-metro-or-dart-41053841.html

Aska

So the next protest is going to be the biggest the country has ever seen I see they have said. Probably wait till the new year for this one so they can get the 221 Regs out ! Like the farmers the other week, all crying that there is no money in it (and to be fair they are getting rode on things like milk and factory prices) but driving tractors around Dublin ain't going to get them anywhere esp when people see that alot of them tractors are worth over 100k new, the trucks were the same, look at the 212 regs etc... there. To give a context on a price, I contacted the local Scania dealer in May about a new truck, heres what he quoted me :

"Thank you for your interest in a new Scania 6x2 tractor unit. After our meeting the other day, we are happy to offer you the following for your consideration.

The Price of €161,500 includes 2 years repairs & maintenance and 3 additional visor lights. Auto greaser is €1,500 extra.

All prices are subject to Vat."

All that to pull a trailer for a company in Meath for €1 a KM, No deal was done as who could justify that?, fuel is the least of my worries at them rates.

MrMusician18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118221672#Comment_118221672

What has this got to do with a fuel protest? A fuel protest that is the result of the wholesale price of oil rising rapidly, and not really anything else.