Five Cities Demand Management Report (Congestion Charges, 15-min city, parking charge increases etc)

Burt Renaults

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118230345#Comment_118230345

It's a relic from the days when cars were narrow enough to safely park on roads. And there weren't as many of them, so it wasn't an issue. It needs to be 100% banned though, especially on main routes into towns and villages. If you're lucky enough to live in an area well-served by public transport, but don't have a driveway, then it should be your own responsibility to find somewhere to privately store your property.

A good example of how infrastructure can lead to a modal shift

https://www.rte.ie/news/connacht/2021/1129/1263832-schools-street-project/

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118240084#Comment_118240084

There are figures for particulate emissions for EVs - much lower even on the bits they have due to rheostatic/regenerative braking and no conventional clutch - so I would fully expect them to be taxed on that

Polluting businesses already have significant restrictions placed on them.

Stovepipe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118240145#Comment_118240145

Im not making up any stuff about you. My point,if you'd care to address it properly instead of evading is that those of us who are dependent on our car for daily transport are left hanging. We can't use public transport because it does not exist in our local area. The mentality of banning car use is pro taxation/pro punishment and not enough about real world alternatives.

Stovepipe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118240145#Comment_118240145

I have to use the M50 and M7 every day so it affects me directly. Traffic pushed out of the city ends up on the M50. Im not against things like pedestrianisation or selective closing of roads but the current approach is city-centric and fails to address rural/out of city needs. The two must go hand in hand or they will not work. Cities are not stand alone.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118241305#Comment_118241305

You are in a thread titled the "5 cities". The only way rural comes into it is in rural commuters possible use of alternatives, for example commute to transport hub e.g. park n stride, train station and travel onwards from there

Just because you live in the sticks doesn't mean you have a right to drive wherever you want. Yes you don't have PT where you live, but that has nothing to do with the topic of this thread. Once you approach the cities, yes, you will be affected by most of the proposals but outside of that you'll only see an impact from taxation changes which will affect everyone regardless.

To give you an example of why these proposals need to be enacted, take Galway. Its exceeding capacity on its road network for most of the day. Building a bypass will only provide relief for 5-6 years until its back to the same again. The population is going to increase by 50% by 2040. If those extra 40,000 people all want to drive too, then Galway will have gridlock from morning until night and it will suck for everyone.

Now, there are folks for whom there is zero other option and they cannot avoid using the car, fair enough, use your car, but you are going to be hit in the pocket as a result, you're also going to be deprioritised at junctions, face exclusion zones where you can't go at all and end up going the long way around most of the time. For those who don't NEED to use the car, they will have walking, cycling, bus, train, bike share, scooters, etc all as options.

The carrot being it will be cheaper and healthier to opt for a more sustainable option.

The stick being higher costs, lower priority, longer journey, more stress, congestion charges, emission exclusion zones etc. This will all be used to discourage use of the private car by those that dont NEED to use it thereby freeing up capacity for those who do NEED to.

From the sounds of it, you will be hit in the pocket a lot by these proposals unless you identify an alternative method of transport. You mentioned you work at the airport all hours. Are there not 24 hour bus routes going to the airport. Might not suit every day, but maybe 2-3 days a week. I get that this sucks and its a pain but there are alternatives out there. Speaking from personal experience, I sold my car over a year ago once I moved to WFH. This allowed me to save a deposit for a place and I made sure I bought in town with good PT links as I don't plan on owning a car ever again. Now I bus, cycle, walk, train everywhere. For those RARE times I need a car or a van, I use GoCar. In the last 12 months I used that service 12 times and 5 of those were when I was moving house.

Keep in mind workplace parking levies are also coming. Employers will be getting hit with 200-300 eur (estimate) of a levy per parking space whether the space is in use or not, so expect them to start reducing the number of spaces and passing the cost on to staff. Current proposal is looking like it won't apply below threshold e.g. 10 spaces, so not every employer will be hit but expect employers with 15, 18, 20 spaces to look to eliminate a chunk to get them below the threshold.

Its not in the current list of proposals, but expect the likes of city center businesses pushing for levies to be applied to all that juicy free parking at out-of-town retail parks to level the playing field.

bk

"Most of the particulates from diesels come from trucks and buses. Cars tend to be Euro 6 compliant and have catalytic converters as standard"

I'm sorry, but this is simply not true! The complete opposite is true.

The whole Diesel Gate controversy was the discovery that Euro 6 and lower Diesel cars were actually emitting significantly more PM and NOX then Euro 6 trucks and buses!

As in a 2 year old Volkswagen Golf would produce as much as 10 times as much PM/NOX as a 2 year old Dublin Bus Double Decker bus!

That is why was so shocking about the whole scandal. People don't seem to realise the massive amounts of PM/NOX that small cars are actually pumping into our air.

Euro 6 standard for trucks and buses actually required real world, on the road testing and very strict output limits. What made the Diesel Gate possible was that the car companies convinced governments to water down the Euro 6 standards for cars (but not trucks/buses) to allow them to only do in lab testing, which is how they were then able to put cheat systems in place.

After the cheat systems were found, they also went back and retested buses and trucks and found most to be within 1% of the required standards. It was cars which were producing many times what was allowed in the standards in the real world.

It turns out that it is relatively easy and affordable to put catalytic converters in large eppensive trucks and buses. It was much more difficult to do that in small 20k cars and maintain any sort of reasonable performance. That is why we they had to lie and cheat on the tests.

cgcsb

Why on earth is this thread being derailed by discusscussion of the woes of rural transport when the title clearly says '5 cities'. Is there not another thread about rural public transport schemes.

AngryLips

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118240084#Comment_118240084

Jesus is this the level of debate we've stooped to? Yes we should definitely try to stop emission reduction on the back of this banger of a realisation

Stovepipe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118241759#Comment_118241759

Because the five cities don't exist in isolation and they are full of rural dwellers who have to commute there for work. Those people will share the tax burden of being rural dwellers. The effects of changing city life are not confined to the footprint of the cities, rather they affect the entire hinterland of the county they sit in.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118241916#Comment_118241916

Not in the context of the topic of this thread or the report linked in the first post. As mentioned already, rural dwellers, in the context of this topic, only become part of the discussion once their journey takes them into or through the city. Outside of that, they have no bearing on anything within the proposals with the exception of national level taxation.

Note, I'm not saying they don't matter, they do, its just that they don't become part of the equation nor will they be affected by the proposals, while outside the cities.

Does that make sense?

By all means feel free to start a thread on the rural situation though

cgcsb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118241916#Comment_118241916

The vast majority of commuter trips start and end un urban areas. For those that start in rural areas and end in urban areas, this report is only concerned with the later.

Phil.x

With the loss of all this motor derived tax there'll be no other option than to tax the sh1t out of the bicycle, as sleepy salad box ryan is only a suck it and see merchant when it come to squandering peoples money.

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118241164#Comment_118241164

Does that include two-wheelers as well as cars?

hans aus dtschl

But how am I supposed to get an anvil from the centre of the city to Donegal?

Something something bicycles.

hans aus dtschl

I was a bit disappointed that they saw the "15 minute city" as the number one solution to the problems they face because:

I don't think anyone has yet defined exactly what a 15 minute city means, or how it will be measured.

I don't think it will be within the power of relevant local authorities to implement 15 minute cities on their own or in the short term (making it dependent on someone else, and in the unspecified future).

I think it is realistic, in that it has largely been achieved in the Netherlands, Paris and Copenhagen. I'm not sure if it's achievable.

Something so vague (unspecific), with no agreed metrics (measurable), with no timescales (time-limited), is not SMART.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118244221#Comment_118244221

Regarding this

I don't think anyone has yet defined exactly what a 15 minute city means, or how it will be measured.

See here

A 15-Minute City is a residential urban concept in which most daily necessities can be accomplished by either walking or cycling from residents' homes.[1][2][3][4] The concept was popularized by Paris mayor Anne Hidalgo and inspired by French-Colombian scientist Carlos Moreno.[5][6]15-minute cities are built from a series of 5-minute neighborhoods, also known as complete communities or walkable neighborhoods.[7] The concept has been described as a "return to a local way of life."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/15-minute_city

Galway city is a great example of what could be an awesome 15 min city. As it stands, you can cycle from almost anywhere into the city within 15 mins. Its also possible to do most daily requirements within a 15 min walk e.g. household shopping, GP etc. With dedicated infrastructure more of the city could be brought into this e.g protected bike lanes, increased permeability for walking, priority at junctions and so on

I think it is realistic, in that it has largely been achieved in the Netherlands, Paris and Copenhagen. I'm not sure if it's achievable.

There is a common rebuttal given to that statement "Amsterdam wasn't always Amsterdam"

https://twitter.com/BrentToderian/status/754107772585730049?s=20

https://twitter.com/BrentToderian/status/880536552161529857?s=20

https://twitter.com/BrentToderian/status/881224107160883200?s=20

https://twitter.com/BrentToderian/status/906727163101036544?s=20

Something so vague (unspecific), with no agreed metrics (measurable), with no timescales (time-limited), is not SMART.

That was not the purpose of the document. That comes later once you get to feasibility studies, planning, design etc. The intent of this document is to offer a long list of proposals for the 5 cities. Its up to local reps and national govt to chose which ones to implement, how to implement, how to cost and pay for them and how to determine if they are a success or failure.

cgcsb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118244126#Comment_118244126

The tax base is diverse, if we have a future with much lower car ownership the tax burden will shift to other things, we'll probably see taxation of certain behaviours considered to be negative as we do already with smoking and drinking, for example a red meat tax. Its unlikely that we'll see a tax on bicycles considering the environmental and health benefits of using a bicycle for personal mobility.

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118244318#Comment_118244318

I don't think you understand what I wrote.

It's all well and good for you to say "I know what a 15 minute city is" or quote from Wikipedia or the wonderful people who have successfully introduced the concept in many places worldwide. I am saying that nobody at any level of Irish government has defined it. Whatsoever.

Is it that 80% of the population will be within 15 minutes of school, post office, church, bank, playing field? What are the institutions that "matter" in the Irish context? Undefined. What percentage, what institutions? What is the metric? It is undefined. It is vague.

With regards the Netherlands etc, the end result is eminently realistic, I'm just not sure that the local authorities command enough resources to achieve it. A broader societal shift will be required, which is beyond LA ability, regardless of their good intentions. In that respect it's not within their gift to achieve. Central government, sure, but not LA. It is not achievable for them. And there is no timeframe mentioned.

That's why I think you might also be incorrect when you say "this wasn't the objective of this document". 15 minute cities is obviously a very desirable thing, but it's a lit like saying the solution to poverty is "to get rich". They've declared the end-state of "15 minute cities" as their top task, with lots of actual, real tasks like increased parking charges etc listed as lower priorities.

Cart before horse, etc.

I think concrete specific tasks should have been higher up the priorities list, with 15 minute cities as the desired end-state.

EDIT: I see that their little clock symbol means "by 2025" lol. Good luck with that! Where I live (in the city) there is no primary healthcare provider, bank, public sports facility, within 15 minutes walk or cycle. And I am not in a disadvantaged area. Even getting my small corner of the city compliant by 2025 will need a lot of fudges.

hans aus dtschl

Incidentally I think their second-highest priority item was almost as woolly as the first:

National Planning Framework Delivery Management: "Enhance Delivery of the National Planning Framework"

"In terms of this TDM Study, an enhanced delivery of the NPF would comprise monitoring of the key relevant outcomes of compact growth and sustainable mobility, with appropriate action taken to improve results if required. Further enhancements could include: prioritisation and urgent implementation of relevant policy objectives; regular review of progress in the delivery of the NPF; and potential revised governance structures to support implementation"

This doesn't look like a task to me, rather it looks like a process.

Burt Renaults

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118244138#Comment_118244138

Since they occupy considerably less public space than cars, no.

markpb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118247090#Comment_118247090

Why? Your post is as equally unlikely as the one you replied to. The reality is somewhere in between. Some pro-active transport measures may take place, there will be a transition as some businesses boom and others suffer, some people will be positively affected and others negatively affected. However it is daft to suggest that a city will die because people find it harder to drive into. Without resorting to ‘but Galway is different’ cliches, can you find any recent examples of cities being negatively affected by policies like these?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118247090#Comment_118247090

Enviro wokeness, lol, that's a new one

The likelier result is that Galway city center due to a combination of these silly measures, Covid going endemic and remote work/learning will become a hollowed out shell with all the shopping, entertainment and work happening on outskirts with the center becoming a soulless black hole with ever increasing social problems.

Literally, all evidence to the contrary in every place where similar measures have been done

hans aus dtschl

We've surely run enough real-world tests now worldwide to show that cities which attempt to prioritise cars slowly die, and cities which strongly facilitate pedestrians, cyclists and mass transit thrive?

I understand that people are apprehensive, but what is the alternative proposal? More cars in the city centre? We're literally not able to get any more in, and the cities aren't thriving as a result of that effort.

Cars are currently effectively hollowing out the rent/rates from the city. The space needs to be given over to more productive transport and business methods. I can park my car on the street for two euro per hour, a street trader could use that place overnight and generate more money for the city.

McGrath5

I was in Dublin city centre over the weekend, needless to say it busy and we were turned away from a few restaurants due to the one we had booked cancelled on us because of a COVID outbreak amongst staff. South William St, Exchequer St, Wicklow St to name a few were de facto pedestrianized due to the sheer volume of people around. Its ridiculous the amount of space handed over to cars on these narrow streets and how aggressive some motorists became because of other motorists holding them up. It's such a damn shame we can't just do what needs to be done and remove cars altogether from these areas.