Is Ireland Racist?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118302432#Comment_118302432

Lol.

Robbie, do you think Ireland is racist? Yes or no?

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118304137#Comment_118304137

Lol.

Do you think there is such a thing as an acceptable level of racism? Yes or no?

Luttrell1975

Just scanning this thread and two issues for me deserve a comment.

1. Just because we don't have any traction in the political system does not mean racism isn't here. There is the danger that racism only gets defined as direct hate speech like GOD and JWZombie. The PDs and FF were into the racism when they brought in a racist citizenship referendum. Racism happens all the time in Ireland anyway in other ways.
2. "Given the recent history of immigration". That's 30 years now. There are black lads playing for the Irish soccer teams. For me Ireland doesn't have anywhere like the number of immigrants compared to other places I spend time like England, Belgium, France, Germany.

Luttrell1975

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118276210#Comment_118276210

You repeat the OPs question. The question is framed naiively. It should be "is there racism in Ireland". Measuring whether a whole country is racist is a relativity, but a question that could mean anything.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118304227#Comment_118304227

When did you stop beating your wife?

Racism should never be accepted but it should be expected.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118304255#Comment_118304255

Never been married.

It absolutely should never be expected.

In my experience, when it comes to skin colour based racism, Ireland is an amateur compared to Mexico inasmuch as the casual, verbalized racism on the streets there is off the charts compared to here. Not that this excuses it anywhere, but these things need to be put into context and proportion.

I mentioned Mexico when chatting to a neighbour recently, Labour party type, retired public sector (some generalizations there to feast upon). Nice fella, and very much in the protect immigrants from racism camp, he found this prejudice extraordinary because "Mexicans are" at this point he could hardly bring himself to say the word and, after some inner struggle, it came out with a whimper "brown." All Others are an homogenous blob to the well intentioned anti-racist, making a virtue of their generalizations while claiming to combat generalizing modes of thought. A downward spiral of BS, basically.

Putrid topic bound to go around in circles because it is based on crude generalizations about whites, blacks, Mexicans, Irish et al. Then it has to be repeated ad nauseum that there are qualifications to the generalizations. Is propositional logic part of the school curriculum here? It should be. It is one the most powerful anti-prejudice tools out there.

Also, while I don't agree with the earlier poster that said Ireland is racist towards working class white families, there is a streak in middle class liberal Irish society for whom their love of 'the Other' is directly proportional to their contempt for white, Irish working class people, and possibly to their contempt for themselves. Note - people like this are liberals not lefties, an important distinction between two vulgar generalizations.

Fr Tod Umptious

Interestingly this weeks Doc on One on RTE Radio 1 is this one

It's about how in 2013 two children were removed from two different Roma families because simply they didn't look like their parents or siblings.

I wonder was it based on racism ?

Did a member of society notify the authorities that there was a strange looking child in a Roma family and something must be up ?

Did the authorities then look at it and say there must be something up, and go all nuclear and remove the child ?

There was a Europe wide hysteria about alleged Roma abduction of non Roma kids at the time.

And we bought into that hysteria hook line and sinker.

I can't imagine the trauma the parents went through at the time, having their child removed from them just because they looked different.

If I recall at the time there were not many dissenting voices at the time.

https://www.rte.ie/radio/doconone/974114-blonde-hair-blue-eyes

Fr Tod Umptious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118304235#Comment_118304235

The birth right citizenship referendum passed by over 80%

When Trump suggested the US get rid of their birth right citizenship the usual "orange man bad" outrage was in full voice in this country.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118304277#Comment_118304277

Regarding the working class, and the middle class.. They both have similar biases. It's the essence of tribalism. Once you perceive yourself to be of a certain group, then negative opinions will form towards competing groups. Especially, groups that compete for resources. Just as the working and middle class have their biases towards the upper class. It's not racism, in any case.

As for any kind of contempt for themselves, I don't see it. The only aspect of that is the social justice warriors, or agenda driven activists, with their advocacy of white privilege, but activists aren't bound by class, but by education (or conditioning which could come from social media) and temperament... and considering the availability of education in Ireland, working class individuals are often as well educated as middle class people. I find when people talk about the working class in Ireland, they tend to focus on the past definitions, without any real consideration of the changes in Irish society over the last 50-60 years.

Luttrell1975

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118304605#Comment_118304605

Good catch, I forgot the result. I was disgusted and voted no to that. Jus sanguinis is a racist concept whether Steve Bannon/Donald Trump advocate for it, or whether Michael McDowell and Jackie Healy Rae advocate for it. It is exclusionary to the point of making the thing into a blood test.

That whole thing was an American polling expert hired by FF and the PDs to keep them in Government and do something cheap and nasty to win the support of the 80% least intelligent part of the electorate. Michael McDowell came on morning Ireland a couple of days before and told lies about the experience in maternity hospitals (2 of the Masters of the Maternity hospitals denied having spoken to him or made the points he reflected). The FF machine around here went into NF and BNP levels of targeting, when they knocked on my door they were asking me about if there were a lot of foreigners in the area. I know that it died down after that, but in 2019 didn't the law get changed again, and it didn't need a referendum?

enricoh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118305396#Comment_118305396

And there we have it folks- the 80 odd % that voted yes have lower intelligence that those that voted no in the referendum!

Now in future let's just leave it to the Ivana baciks and sorcha pollaks of this country as they know best. Dumb paddy can't be trusted to get it right everytime, the gay marriage and abortion results are a bit of an anomaly tho- the least intelligent must have been busy those days!

Hamachi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118305396#Comment_118305396

The degree of arrogance in this post is stunning. Just listen to yourself; the ‘least intelligent 80% of the electorate’. At least you’re entirely unambiguous in your contempt for the Irish people.

I consider myself reasonably intelligent. I voted for the birthright citizenship amendment. Our asylum laws were blatantly subverted by women arriving from West Africa, at an advanced stage of pregnancy, to avail of the unintended jus soli citizenship loophole.

The overwhelming majority of the Irish electorate, proved themselves to be eminently sensible, in closing a migration path that was flagrantly abused for more than half a decade. If a similar referendum were conducted today, the result would be even more emphatic.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118305584#Comment_118305584

You did answer. You alluded that if you were racially abused by someone in ireland, then you would be justified in calling Ireland racist.

Is that your stance?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118304258#Comment_118304258

You honestly don't expect a minority of people to be racist? That's just naive.

Luttrell1975

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118306143#Comment_118306143

I really love getting the appreciation. Let me put it pictorially for you, since you get upset so easy.

The claim that there were droves of people arriving to exploit the jus solis was made by Michael McDowell. That was the lie, and the maternity hospitals clarified that. You bought it. You were had. The bill and act that McDowell rushed through the parliament on that basis was reformed in 2019 because it was unsafe and prejudicial. The jus sanguinis stayed in place all right, but the practical law to define how long you had to be here before you child could be born a citizen was fixed, simply because people weren't doing that in the numbers claimed.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118306430#Comment_118306430

*Edit* not a rabbit hole I want to go down

RobbieTheRobber

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118306309#Comment_118306309

No I didn't. Can you just stick to what I say and not your feelings.

RobbieTheRobber

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118306188#Comment_118306188

How should the tone of your post be perceived as, friendly and open to discussion?

🤣

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118300896#Comment_118300896

See?

RobbieTheRobber

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118306682#Comment_118306682

Fuckin hell you are really reaching there aren't you!

That's a question the dunne. It is done to elicit an answer in a discussion. And that question didn't give any indication of my feelings.

Hamachi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118306430#Comment_118306430

I’m not in the least upset. However, your crude little graphic doesn’t say much for your self-professed towering intellect.

I don’t believe I was ‘had’. I made an informed choice to close the jus soli citizenship loophole, that was ruthlessly exploited by statistically significant numbers of migrants, seeking to circumvent our asylum process. Fortunately, the overwhelming majority of my fellow citizens agreed with my reading of the situation and sent a resounding message that this migration channel should be shut. That decision continues to hold true today, with some minor amendments.

If you cast your mind back to the early 00’s, 20% of all births in the Rotunda and Holles Street were the progeny of recently arrived asylum seekers. The masters of both maternity hospitals highlighted this fact on several occasions in the media, also flagging the crisis scenarios they were dealing with, as heavily pregnant African women presented themselves at the hospitals.

Like I said, the Irish electorate made an eminently sensible decision to end this situation and restore order to inward migration. It’s a testament to the logic and practicality of the Irish people. Long may it continue.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118306726#Comment_118306726

I'd ask anyone to look over that particular line of discussion and in that particular context, try and get any other meaning from your line of questioning and your bizarre reasoning.

It was very clear you were attempting to argue that Ireland was racist because there are racists in Ireland.

You have shown you have no interest in conversation. You only want to inflame and accuse people and backtrack when your inconsistencies are pointed out. *see previous replies from other posters.*

But if that's what floats your boat, have at it.

Luttrell1975

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118306751#Comment_118306751

There was no crude graphic. That's a true representation of the mental capacities of people who just hate other races. You don't mean to tell me that the well educated 20% were the dumb ones?

Anyhoo - this is just to show you that you are still living under a lie. Maybe you WANT to believe it.... is that the case?

Hamachi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118306887#Comment_118306887

Isn’t it a sign of low intelligence to generalize a stat-sig cohort of the human race? Let’s say 20% - 25% of people harbor less than favorable views of other races. Do you honestly think that all of them unanimously suffer from reduced mental capacity? Whilst I don’t agree with their views, I feel confident in asserting that many ‘racists’ are likely to be reasonably intelligent. I made this point earlier in the thread. Racism is not confined to a particular socio-economic or IQ cohort. It’s fairly evenly distributed across the entire population. However, those with higher levels of education are more adept at obfuscating their views. Surely somebody with your towering intellect is capable of understanding this, rather than the simplistic, binary thinking you’ve displayed to date.

So there was no correlation between the astronomical growth in asylum seeking between 1999-2004 and the jus soli citizenship loophole? Equally, it was purely coincidental that the numbers of asylum seekers fell off a cliff after 2005? I believe what the data tells me. The loophole acted as a pull factor for large numbers of dubious characters to land on the shores of this country to initiate spurious asylum claims. After the Irish people voted in overwhelming numbers to rectify that oversight, the stream of asylum applications regressed to the natural mean. I trust the data and the resultant positive outcome for this country. As indeed do 80% of my fellow citizens.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118306887#Comment_118306887

If you think 80% of a populations views are wrong or illegitimate then you can’t really call yourself a democrat. It’s a pretty significant majority.

Hamachi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118306999#Comment_118306999

Indeed. That 80% figure is the most resounding referendum result ever delivered by the Irish electorate. It far exceeds the margins by which the SSM and 8th amendment referenda were passed.

Beasty

Thread closed as I deal with a number of reports

Beasty

RobbieTheRobber threadbanned

A number of you are pretty close to a similar sanction

If you cannot be civil, do not post

Thread re-opened, for now

Any questions, PM me - do not respond to this post in-thread

Strumms

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118300870#Comment_118300870

Yes....There are racists in every country, including Ireland.. But Ireland as a country is not racist...

this state / country / us as Irish people bend over backwards and do without ourselves to house, finance, provide healthcare for - medical cards in the majority of cases, provide jobs and training for.....and ensure the wellbeing and welfare of tens of thousands of people of varying ethnic backgrounds from different countries....

if THAT is racist ? Ehhhh no, it isn’t... not close...we are not racist as people and the state, the workings and machinations of it are not close to being racist....

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118275800#Comment_118275800

When you posted this I checked at the time and this quote could only be found on the CRER website (Coalition for racial equality and rights) in Scotland. When you made this post that definition was on this website. https://www.crer.scot/what-is-racism. (They openly admit to being anti-racist and encourage everyone else to also)

I was just checking something and realized that the quote no longer exists. They updated it. Check for yourself. This is how it reads now;

"The term ‘racism’ is often poorly understood. The Oxford Dictionary defines it as, "Prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one’s own race is superior." However, this is a simplified explanation of a complex issue."

So your quote above has never appeared in the OED. This was a lie(or mistake?)and you were fooled. At least they should admit they made a mistake but they haven't made mention of it anywhere.

This reenforces my original point that racism has to do with a feeling of superiority. That's where racial discrimination comes from. To believe that your ideas are superior to someone else is not racism, that is politics. Discriminating against a person because of other reasons is not racism. It might be equally as horrible, maybe, but it surely is arguable and depends on the situation. We are now discriminating against unvaxxed people in society.

When you now google: 'racism definition' the first thing that pops up is the dead link to the CRER definition of racism as quoted in your post above. Now google:

'prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism by an individual, community, or institution against a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular racial or ethnic group, typically one that is a minority or marginalized.'

and the first thing that pops up is the CRER website. When you click into it, their claim that this is the OED definition no longer exists. They have updated the definition. Please check for yourself. Hopefully it will be removed as the first hit on google soon so as not to fool anyone us.

If you google: 'oxford english dictionary definition racism' it now gives the correct definition as defined for the last century, it really hasn't changed much. ", "Prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior." "

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118275855#Comment_118275855

The definition I quoted is the one in the Oxford English Dictionary (the big one, not the Shorter or the Concise); doubtless that's where the CRER got it from.

Which dictionary does your suggested definition come from?

So it never was from the OED, seems that CRER either made it up or made a mistake. I just can't see how they could make a mistake like that. Google have also copied this mistake and mistake still exists as the first hit on google.

My suggested definition was always the right one.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118307771#Comment_118307771

I agree.

Luttrell1975

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118306972#Comment_118306972

Ok, fair point. But let me tell you if there is a cluster of outright racism its at the smaller brain section. I totally accept that brighter people can be emotionally unintelligent crones, high score Simplex Crossworders, and racists at the same time.

You say that the citizenship referendum curbed asylum seeking. Ehhhhhh no it didn't. It had absolutely nothing to do with that. Ireland's Asylum system rose to its highest point in 2010 six years after......................................

SamStonesArm

Every country has racist people so in the simple way , yes it's racist but in the broad spectrum of racist countries then I would think it's not a racist country

Luttrell1975

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118306999#Comment_118306999

Well put it this way. Referendums do things that are strange. Look at the Brits, they brought in Brexit, and its bunkum the whole lot of it. Not one single argument for it is partly true. A lovely cocktail of austerity, insecurity, racist rag headlines, opportunism to take over leadership of the Tories, insipid Cameron, and the lies managed to up what had never been more than 40% support to 50.5%.

Compare that to Ireland, the unchallenged FF/PD permanent hegemony, a highly insecure McDowell, a hired in American strategist they needed a stunt for the June election. And the data I supply on the previous shows that asylum demand was created outside Ireland, Ireland was not targetted by anyone, Ireland had no problem in its maternity hospitals other than being underfunded.

Hamachi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118308062#Comment_118308062

Can you please point me to a peer reviewed study corroborating your assertion that racists cluster at the side of the bell curve with smaller brains? I’d love to read some scientific evidence supporting this statement of yours.

The trend line you’ve presented is misleading. It counts the number of asylum seekers recognized as refugees annually in Ireland. The reason for the apparent peak in 2010 is that many of those cases were legacy applications, finally processed and approved after up to a decade in the system. It should also be noted that many of these approvals were only granted after multiple appeals against the initial rejection. I suggest you do some reading on the Pamela Izevbekhai case to learn more about a particularly egregious asylum application at this time.

The true numerical representation is the sum of net new asylum applications annually. The zenith was in 2002 when there was almost 12K net new applications. 2002 was also slap bang in the middle of the period when the jus soli citizenship loophole remained vulnerable to exploitation. When the loophole was closed in 2004, the number of net new cases immediately declined to ~7K and subsequently declined to 2K - 3K per year, particularly after the 2008 recession began to bite. This data is all there for you to peruse on worldinfo.data.

So yes, I conclude that the 27th amendment proved highly successful in curbing the volume of spurious asylum claims and has resulted in Ireland experiencing the manageable inflows that we handle to this day. Like I said, the 80% of the electorate made a profoundly rational decision in 2004 that continues to reverberate to the present day.

Hamachi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118308070#Comment_118308070

See my previous response. The chart you posted is the first result resulted by Google. It’s misleading in that it refers to the count of those recognized as refugees annually.

Please review the counts for annual net new asylum applications. The downward trajectory is stark from the 2002/2003 peak. Ireland was clearly targeted due to our lax jus soli citizenship loophole. In fact, McDowell was subject to intense criticism from EU partners, deeply concerned that Ireland was a weak link in the EU migration frontline.

Question for you: How many of our EU partners offer unconditional jus soli citizenship in 2021?

Luttrell1975

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118308104#Comment_118308104

Happy to contribute to your self improvement. There are several studies that attempt this, all of which say they can't rule out other factors but this one proves, it: https://kar.kent.ac.uk/47547/1/Dhont%26Hodson%202014%20CDPS%20cogn%20ability%20and%20prejudice.pdf

I got a review of that too just to help you establish their finding:

Now its your turn.

Get me a peer reviewed journal of properly done research which proves that the adjusting the Citizenship provisions led to a fall off in Asylum applications. Let me re-state, you need to look at troubles in the country of origin to understand why there would be an increase flow, and you need to look at the effect on all the countries of the EU together. For example, why are there suddenly loads of Syrian refugees coming into the EU?

I repeat - the 2004 was a dodgy referendum based on misinformation, and pushed by a near permanent FF Government. The Act that followed it was even more dodgy and was amended.

Beasty

A post and follow-ups deleted. I instructed not to reply to mod warnings in thread

If anyone has a problem with mod actions take it to PM. If you have a problem with posts or posters report it

Montage of Feck

Working class? You mean welfare class I presume. Isn't everyone middle class now even if it's just an effected "lifestyle" fuelled on credit.

Mad_maxx

The 2004 referendum was required as we were out of step with the rest of Europe ,the EU didn't want that kind of leak

As already stated, Ireland is not a particularly racist country, except when it comes to our own minorities, then we are all guilty of that.

The lengths some posters will go to, to try and say that travellers are to blame for the discrimination against them, just proves it. It's perfectly acceptable to discriminate against them, posters going so far as to advocate for the destruction of their culture and forced integration into society.

Ethnic cleansing; the elimination of an unwanted ethnic group or groups from a society.

I don't know why posters don't want to admit this.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118308667#Comment_118308667

I don't think so. I'd say the middle class represent the largest part of Irish people, but there is still a working class, due to education and income potential. I don't think it's as large as some people want to make it out to be, but it's still there nonetheless. All the same, I doubt there's much difference in opinions and temperament anymore between the classes, due to a shared education system, and opportunities for social mobility. The welfare class would be something else altogether.

Travellers have an very very high unemployment rate, very poor health outcomes and are a disproportionate presence in our prisons relative to their size. Let’s not try and pretend their culture is working out great for them and for society. Who is responsible for those outcomes is it us or them?

Mad_maxx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118309431#Comment_118309431

In the minds of WOKE progressives ,once you have minority status, nothing is ever you're fault and always broader society's problem

whiskersmcgee

Do humans and animals discriminate and differentiate? Yes.

Take a stroll through many parts of West Africa as a black man and you'll be lucky to make it out with arms still attached.

Take a stroll through many parts of South America and see if you aren't specifically targeted for the colour of your skin, to the tune of being murdered in a barrel.

Grab a taxi as an Irish woman in Mexico City and see how you fine you may end up.

Meanwhile, the least racist places on Earth, such as ireland, you have people taking a conniption about the way someone looked at someone else sometime 19 years ago.

Imbeciles and spoilt brats.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118307989#Comment_118307989

I am not relying on CRER to tell me what is in the OED. I am looking at the OED. This definition is there.

(I was unaware that this definition was on the CRER website until you told me. If it was on the CRER website, they must have got it from the OED; where else could it have come from. It may or may not have been removed from the CRER website; I haven't checked. I'm not as interested as you are in the CRER website, to be honest. But this definition is still in the OED.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118308014#Comment_118308014

The defintion I gave is in the OED. Have you looked at the OED? Why do you say the definition is not there?

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118310892#Comment_118310892

You don't understand the word racism, do you?