General Irish politics discussion thread

Augme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121757782#Comment_121757782

Again, you don't seem to be understanding the concept of a judicial review. I'll try again, a judicial review is a challenge against a decision has been made. SIPO made a decision to refuse releasing documents for inspection. That decision was still made, SIPO being happy to release the documents after that decision was made doesn't magically mean that decision was never made. The Ditch challenged the decision and SIPO consent to the decision being quashed.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121757808#Comment_121757808

We can continue to debate this back and forth, you can have your opinion of what was reported in the media, so can I, there is a reasonable basis for both opinions, but the only thing that will demonstrate that your opinion is more fairly based than mine is the actual text of the court decision, if there was one, as the media mentions the court endorsing an agreement between the parties. The media reports are unclear, as they often are in respect of court outcomes.

Brussels Sprout

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121757616#Comment_121757616

"EU bureaucrats" - Haven't heard that one in a while. It was beloved by the UK papers back in the day when the likes of Boris Johnson would make up stories for a gullible public who were primed to believe any old nonsense about an institution that they had no real interest in. That ended well....

Augme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121758010#Comment_121758010

I can't understand why the Ditch would be happy to have the decision quashed if the same problem will happen the next time they request documents that haven't been laid. But I accept no one knows the deals of the agreement reached between both sides. It will be interesting to see if any court decision is published.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121758582#Comment_121758582

The Ditch are reporting that they are happy to have the decision quashed because spin is the only thing that matters to them.

Augme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121758590#Comment_121758590

What's the excuse for the Irish Times and Irish Examiner?

jmayo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121758066#Comment_121758066

Maybe you haven't noticed all those farmer protests throughout EU and their major complaint about the ever increasing levels of EU bureaucracy.

Who comes up with all these EU regulations on not alone agriculture but on trade, medical devices, environment, fisheries, vehicle emissions, etc, etc?

Can we not call them EU bureaucrats ?

Brussels Sprout

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121758688#Comment_121758688

EU directives come from 3 EU bodies all of which are populated by politicians elected directly by the people or indirectly by their national governments:

• EU Parliament - Members voted for directly by the people in European elections
• Council of the European Union - Government Ministers from each EU member state
• EU Commission - 1 per EU member - Nominated by the member states governments

Is it a simple process? No, it isn't. That doesn't mean that it's undemocratic though.

EU directives have by and large helped to make the citizens of Europe safer and healthier. The British papers created some bizarro world version of this though where they actively sought out the most ludicrous rules and amplified them while not highlighting any of the positive stuff. They created this notion of the "faceless beaurocrats in Brussels" who seemed to spend all day coming up with idiotic regulations that only seemed to constrain plucky British ingenuity. It was comic book stuff and ultimately it worked in the guise of Brexit.

There's no greater indicator that most of the rules were eminently sensible (and actually popular with the public) then that the Tories ultimately haven't changed much of any of the laws that they were "forced" to adopt since leaving the EU.

As for the farmers protests. Many of their gripes are with their individual governments. Many of their problems happen to be common across Europe right now but aren't caused by EU laws (e.g. the Energy crisis kicked off by Russia's invasion of Ukraine). Yes there are some EU legislation that they are unhappy with. EU legislators need to consider the population as a whole as well as the environment. We're currently experiencing a climate and biodiversity disaster. Legislation such as the banning of certain insecticides or lowering of nitrate levels are not taken to enrage farmers but that is a net result of it.

These are complex problems with a lot of nuance. Often when faced with that it's easier to depict one side as a bunch of morons (as the British press did for years).

cute geoge

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121757616#Comment_121757616

if Verona were to join up they will be a strong force to be reckoned with ,she comes across as very likable ,it just shows what an arsehole Leo was in blagguarding her ,likewise with Brendan Griffin .It looks bleak for FG in Kerry with no canidade likely to be elected next time .We might even see 3 Healy Rae's squeee in!!!

pureza

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121758601#Comment_121758601

The Irish Times are reporting on what the Ditch says except they've referred to what the ditch says as 'allegedly'

Eg : "The Ditch, represented by Abbey Law Solicitors, alleged Sipo acted beyond the powers it has under the 1997 Act, which provides that every copy of a statement provided to it under section 74 shall be available for any person to inspect “at such times and subject to such conditions as the commission considers appropriate”.

You'd need to provide a copy of what was agreed between the legals acting for Sipo and the legals acting for the ditch,to be able to determine what was agreed as it otherwise does look like Sipo's legals did the normal thing and dropped fighting the case as the documents were by now before the house ie the process they were defending had progressed by then to its conclusion meaning the documents were not locked down anymore

Quite a lot of effort on a trivial matter

Not quite so trivial obviously if the hate for Varadkar is strong in one

pureza

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121759965#Comment_121759965

Agreed,it was a major mis step bowing to wokeness like they did in Verona's case

She'd be a great fit for the other 3 T.D's

marno21

https://www.irishtimes.com/politics/2024/02/12/fine-gael-td-paul-kehoe-confirms-he-will-not-contest-next-general-election/

Another FG TD standing down at the next election. Is that 9 now?

Interestingly, another TD in a constituency where some of this Government's policies would see a fair bit of aggro at the doors during canvassing time. TD's in similar constituencies (Kerry, Donegal) seem to be thinking along similar lines.

pureza

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121760426#Comment_121760426

What decided it for him was the splitting of the constituency

He was losing a lot of his vote base

Augme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121760413#Comment_121760413

I'd be surprised if the Irish Times are simply taking the Ditchs word for it. Seems that would be very poor journalism on their part. They seem very clear about what happened. Public bodies making up random rules as they go along isn't a trivial matter, ans hiding documents that should be available for the public to inspect certainly isn't either. But maybe quite trivial if the love for Varadkar is strong in one.

The Standards in Public Office Commission (Sipo) has agreed to a High Court order quashing its decision to refuse to provide the Ditch media company with an annual political donation statement.

https://www.irishtimes.com/crime-law/courts/2024/02/06/sipo-agrees-to-order-quashing-refusal-to-provide-ditch-with-political-donation-statement/

pureza

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121760436#Comment_121760436

Nothing wrong with reporting what was alleged in an article when matter of factly reporting a court report

It's standard in small news items

marno21

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121760434#Comment_121760434

Well it's open season in the new Wicklow/Wexford constituency, which has a substantial amount of North Wexford in it. No incumbent TDs

The new Wexford constituency has no incumbent FG TD either and DArcy if he decided to run again is also North Wexford based.

Seems very premature to be quitting politics completely with that set of circumstances.

zell12

Is there a growing consensus date for next general election?

pureza

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121760897#Comment_121760897

Gorey based Malcolm Byrne is a shoe in I'd imagine for the new constituency, probably then 1 Sinn Féin

The third is anyone's guess-it's a very farmery fine gael area,so that might help them ?

It's largest urban centre would be Arklow ,where Brady who is staying in the old Wicklow now 4 seater built up a strong team for Sinn Féin

There's also an Arklow based left leaning independent who might do well but unknown in North Wexford which makes up the largest portion of the new constituency

Blut2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121760426#Comment_121760426

Thats the 9th confirmed of their 33 current TDs so far, yeah. A very high proportion. And there'll almost certainly be quite a few more (people like Pascal eying up Europe for example) as we get closer to the election.

It would suggest that FG likely have some fairly bad internal polling data that so many sitting TDs are jumping ship.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121761529#Comment_121761529

There is an alternative view. Fine Gael will have been in government for 14 years by the time of the next election. A renewal of faces is one way of getting the electorate to continue voting them in. I have no idea whether they have young fresh candidates, but if they do, there is a real opportunity for renewal.

Blut2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121761541#Comment_121761541

Thats not how it works in Irish politics. When government parties are polling well going into an election they tend to have very few resignations, when parties are polling poorly they have high numbers of resignations, regardless of length of time in government.

Sitting politicians first and foremost are concerned with their own job security, and with the difficulty and unpleasantness of election season. ie if its worth going to the effort of running if the outcome is in doubt.

The only comparable example in recent years to FG's current level of TD loss is FF going into the 2011 election.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121761529#Comment_121761529

Michael Ring being evasive on Clare Byrne too.

https://twitter.com/oconnellhugh/status/1757359060796526829

Brussels Sprout

Even though he is 70, I cannot imagine Michael Ring not running. Apart from Willie O'Dea there's not a single politician in the country who love running in elections more. I'd say he's just looking for some attention from Varadkar. He's still peeved at losing his ministerial job in 2020.

Brussels Sprout

The interesting thing about all these FG retirements is that they're currently doing no worse in the polls than they did at the last GE (20.9%).

They got a massive bounce during the early Pandemic (much like ruling parties all across the world did) but not they've settled down to exactly where they were before.

As such (and especially with the increased seat numbers in the next Dail) not many of them were sure they were going to lose their seats (that's where there is no comparison to FF leading up to 2011).

I think the conclusion must be that a lot of them are just tired, for various reasons, and just want out.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121761571#Comment_121761571

I think things are different now thanks to the level of abuse in Irish politics, mainly through an importation from the North of attitudes up there.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121761789#Comment_121761789

I said at the time (when FG were in the mid 30's) that Varadkar would lead them back to 2020 levels and he has.

I wonder would it be that these TD's, closer in than I am, fear that Leo could lead them even further down once an election is called? Are these the TD's who want him gone in other words?

Loafing Oaf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121761571#Comment_121761571

The only comparable example in recent years to FG's current level of TD loss is FF going into the 2011 election.

Yes I remember a number of high-profile mid-career FF TDs like Noel Dempsey suddenly deciding ahead of that election that they had stuff they wanted to do outside politics...

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121762545#Comment_121762545

Noel Dempsey was 58 in 2011, had spent the last few years of his career dealing with the biggest financial crisis in the State, a crisis which affected his colleague Brian Lenihan, that would have taken a huge toll and I would guess that burnout was a huge factor. It was also the time when the rise of the likes of PBP and SF turned the political discourse into one that was adversarial to the extreme. There were other Fianna Fail TDs in the same situation at the time.

If there is any comparison with 2011, it is that government TDs now will have suffered similar burnout from the Covid crisis and the increasingly toxic political environment, again driven by certain opposition parties. The difference is that the current TDs dealt much better with the Covid crisis than the FF TDs dealt with the financial crisis.

Brussels Sprout

I think myself that the real reason for a lot of these retirements is down to the perceived lack of opportunities. In many cases these are TDs who have been victims of the number of ministerial jobs for FG shrinking dramatically between 2016 & 2020. After the next election they will either be on the opposition benches or they will be in government with a similar number of ministerial positions to go around. In the latter scenario the current ministers would likely be the favourites to get those positions.

Of the 9 retirees 4 are over 65 so that can be put down to them coming to the natural ends of their careers. Of the other 5:

• Michael Creed (60) - lost his senior ministry in 2020
• Joe McHugh (52) - lost his senior ministry in 2020
• Paul Kehoe (51) - lost his junior ministry in 2020
• John Paul Phelan (45) - lost his junior ministry in 2020
• Brendan Griffin (41) - lost his junior ministry in 2020

Since we can see an obvious trend here. Who else lost out in 2020. They would likely be also considering their positions.

• Michael Ring
• Ciarán Cannon
• Damien English - didn't actually lose out in 2020 but had to resign his ministry subsequently

Maybe a naive question. I'm aware of the origins of FF and FG. But I've only just noticed FF using the strapline "The Republican Party". It might have been used in a previous campaign. Do FF regularly use that slogan and who are they looking to attract?