General Irish politics discussion thread

FrancieBrady

Thankfully it's under review.

https://twitter.com/gavreilly/status/1598072632297271296

FrancieBrady

Quite an achievement from FG's Alan Dukes to cause almost as much anger as the programme's subject. Many here would feel it is revelatory of an attitude in government that has led to this region being ignored and treated as a place apart.

https://twitter.com/AineMcMahon/status/1598078055465226240

FrancieBrady

Dukes bigotry taking up nearly more time on Claire Byrne than the discussion on Quinn himself.

That he couldn't bring himself to apologise says a lot about FG arrogance.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119943713#Comment_119943713

http://www.britishirish.org/assets/CommitteeAFINAL.pdf

The independent evidence would fully back up everything he says. It is bandit country. No getting away from that.

Still, any way you can deflect from Quinn and republicans, you will grab it.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119943724#Comment_119943724

Parse it for us there, what does the independent evidence say?

Does it say 'that people in the border region have violence in their blood'?

Peregrinus

It's a border. It's in the nature of borders that they incentivize certain forms of lawlessness. That tells you something about borders, not about "border people".

Hotblack Desiato

That doesn't explain the blind loyalty and omerta.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119943864#Comment_119943864

You only need to look at the county Dukes mentioned 'Tipperary' to see 'loyalty' on the same scale as Quinn received and to somebody who didn't do a third of what Quinn did for his community. Not the only example of it.

Criminals and violent thugs operate in secret, the trite 'omerta' slur is rubbish, 99% of people don't have info to give.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119943836#Comment_119943836

Correct. Blatantly obvious point Pere. The guys arrested for the violence were drawn to the border from Dublin and elsewhere.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119943925#Comment_119943925

I dunno. They may have been locals; they may have come from further afield; maybe a bit of both. But there isn't any corrupt border blood. "Border people" are no different from other people.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119944555#Comment_119944555

Yeh, I know.

They are according to Dukes and blanch more prone to violence than anyone else on the island, both are doubling down on this bigoted view of a disparate community of people. Arrogance won't allow them to apologise or retract. blanch has even produced a report that he claims 'backs up' Dukes but as yet hasn't pointed out where.

Pintman Paddy Losty

No one who knows border people would say they are no different.

Dukes is 100% correct in what he says even if he has to backpeddal now to pander to woke online mobs.

Border people are reared on violence. It courses through their blood. The region has been lawless for decades as a result.

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119944555#Comment_119944555

Nonsense.

Alan Dukes characterisation was completely right, albeit one he'd have done better to keep to hisself.

Its not exactly their own fault either. The lawlessness and violence of 1969 to 1998 conditioned a generation of paranoia, suspicion, omerta and kangaroo courts.

A close relative of mine was a senior Garda based across Louth, Monaghan and Cavan for most of his career from the early 70s to the early 00s and I've heard the stories, the wretched details.

The Troubles have left a dreadful legacy, one that, to this day, tends to sideline the Guards and the Courts in favour of 'local solutions'.

This is the environment in which Sean Quinn built his businesses and in which his suppliers and customers existed. If you think that just disappeared overnight, then guess again.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119944659#Comment_119944659

QED on the point about FG attitudes.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119944697#Comment_119944697

Did your relative tell you stories about the Amnesty condemned 'Heavy Gang' of Gardai FG sent to the region? Does he or indeed you take any responsibilty for the damage that caused to the Gardai here?

The RUC had to be restructured and renamed for what they did and it took years to rebuild confidence in the new PSNI as a result, here, the activities of the Heavy Gang were buried...typically.

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119944713#Comment_119944713

And if one of the other contributors who was never in Fine Gael had said it, then what?

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119944640#Comment_119944640

You obviously didn't read the report.

"the Committee was alarmed to hear from witnesses that in some border areas, particularly in the South Armagh region, the sale of laundered fuel was both widespread and carried out in the open."

"Although sometimes considered a victimless crime, illicit trade has a significant impact on the Irish and British economies and also frequently supports other serious criminal activities by groups engaged in cross-border smuggling activities. The Committee was told by a number of witnesses, including the Gardai and PSNI, that organised crime gangs featured prominently in illicit trade and that extensive networks on both sides of the border allowed them to partake in any number of illegal ventures, often working in partnership with each other. Even more troubling was the link between these organised crime gangs and dissident groups who heavily depended on organised crime to fund their terrorist activities. The Committee heard, for example, that dissidents comprised a considerable proportion of criminals involved in fuel laundering."

As I have said already, it is a border, and borders attract criminals. Criminals are more violent than the rest of the community.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119944814#Comment_119944814

Where does that say 'that people in the border region have violence in their blood' or are more disposed to violence than somebody in Tipperary?

Nowhere blanch, don't waste anymore time on your spurious 'evidence'/

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119944795#Comment_119944795

My point was about latent FG bigotry becoming public in the utterances of Dukes and echoed by others here. If it exists in others that is not surprising either. Many belligerent Unionists would believe the same.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119944830#Comment_119944830

That report supports Dukes' broad point.

The absurdity of expecting a report from a half-decade ago to repeat his exact words is just your latest nonsensical approach to discussion.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119944851#Comment_119944851

No it doesn't.

growleaves

Dukes alienated half of FG in his day. He has a likeability problem.

That kind of plainspokenness wouldn't be accepted in relation to any other group coming from a public political figure.

You could say "Some women are sluts" and you might be right but should you say it?

FrancieBrady

Good to see Heather Humphrey's not associating herself with the bigoted wing of FG and others.

Alan Dukes comments on RTÉ last night were wrong and he should apologise. It was the people in the border area and our communities who suffered most as a result of the violence carried out by terrorist organisations and criminals. The overwhelming majority of decent, hardworking people in Monaghan, Cavan and the wider border region endured and stood against this violence for decades.

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119944840#Comment_119944840

Its not bigotry, its evidenced very clearly by the attacks on the former Quinn properties, on the home of Patrick O'Brien and the grievous bodily harm perpetrated on Kevin Lunney,where his chest was carved up like a Christmas ham and his shin broken with a heavy blunt instrument.

QED. So to speak.

Larbre34

Dukes had apologised for his indelicate phrasing, but not for the substance of his comments.

Right and correct IMHO.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119945167#Comment_119945167

'that people in the border region have violence in their blood' is NOT evidenced by an attack by two people from East Wall and wherever in Dublin McGuinness was from.

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119944776#Comment_119944776

You fight fire with fire.

Guards were getting killed. Joint patrols had to involve the Army with FN long rifles and armoured cars. The only way to even try to protect the innocents in the area, the women and the kids and the farmers trying to eke out a living in the region, was to get heavy.

And it wasn't just FG. It was the various Govts of Lynch and Cosgrave and Haughey and Fitzgerald. It wasn't politics, it was the survival of the State.

Why would I take any responsibility for how the Troubles era affected the Guards here?? I was in secondary school when the GFA passed! Don't be daft now.

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119945191#Comment_119945191

Cyril McGuinness lived in Derrylin, Fermanagh for at least 25 years prior to the attack on Kevin Lunney.

Thats where he was from.

The two other mongs being from East Wall is irrelevant.

What is relevant, is that the attack was of the nature that it was and that the three stooges didn't just wake up some morning and decide to carry it out off their own bat.

So as much as you'd like to believe that certain members of this Community are being done a massive disservice in the way they are being characterised, you're absolutely incorrect.

FrancieBrady

Dukes making the headlines today not Quinn. Well done Alan, well done.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119945260#Comment_119945260

So as much as you'd like to believe that certain members of this Community are being done a massive disservice in the way they are being characterised, you're absolutely incorrect.

That ^^^ is now in the realms of stubborn bigotry. Add the arrogance not to be able to back down or back up the comments but still cling to them..