General Irish politics discussion thread

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122924649#Comment_122924649

I take it that you're not familiar with budgeting on a large scale.

The surplus, the Apple money, any extra money should not be used for current expenditure or political giveaways. We need massive investment in capital projects and rather than borrowing this money, we should use the "spare" cash we have. If you use the spare cash to offer tax reductions or similar then in a short enough space of time, you've none of this money left and pretty much nothing to show for it.

The reference to fearmongering is just daft!

Markus Antonius

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122924993#Comment_122924993

I already mentioned that it should be put towards critical infrastructure. But there is nothing stopping them from easing off on the stifling income tax as well. You are hook line and sinker to this idea that such cuts to tax would have to be "paid for" in other ways. They simply don't. Surpluses are absolutely useless, harmful even, in the hands of wasteful incompetent governments, therefore I would rather have that income tax money back in my own pocket.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122926501#Comment_122926501

In what way are surpluses harmful?

They can be used to pay off government debt.

Markus Antonius

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122927015#Comment_122927015

If the government takes in a surplus of income tax (which we have seen Paschal O'Donohue brag about on many occasions) It strains the financial security of workers and is a sign of a punitive system.

Judging by the responses I'm getting here, it's no wonder Paschal was able to brag so publicly and for the electorate to just sit and accept it. At least that's one thing I admire about the French.

dulpit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122927226#Comment_122927226

The taxes aren't punitive here. They pay for the services we need, and the services we need need investment. The money that is being spent should be spent better, but we should definitely spend more, not less.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122924649#Comment_122924649

Once you've lowered income tax it is extraordinarily difficult (and painful — personally, politically and economically) to raise it, and certainly to raise it quickly and in the short term, which is what would be required.

Your suggestion of using the CT returns to construct critical infrastructure is a much better one. But, obviously, to the extent that you do that, you can't also use it to cut income tax.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122927226#Comment_122927226

We don't have a punitive system. Most workers pay very little tax.

Markus Antonius

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122928088#Comment_122928088

You must be joking. Not only is the tax one of the highest in Europe, the cost of and quality of the services we get in return are atrocious. Definitely the worst tax-services ratio in Europe if not further.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122929539#Comment_122929539

Tax is above average for high earners - those earning above 100k. However, we have one of the lowest income tax burdens on low earners.

https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php?title=Wages_and_labour_costs#:~:text=It%20is%20defined%20as%20income,the%20euro%20area)%20in%202023.

"Figure 6 presents them for a low wage earner who earns two-thirds (67 %, to be exact) of the average earnings of a worker in the business economy (NACE Rev. 2, Sections B to N) and who is a single person without children.

The first indicator, tax wedge on labour costs, measures the burden of tax and social security contributions relative to labour cost. It is defined as income tax on gross wage earnings plus employee and employer social security contributions, expressed as a percentage of total labour costs. This tax wedge for the EU was 38.6 % (39.3 % for the euro area) in 2023. The highest tax wedges on labour costs of low-wage earners in 2023 were recorded in Belgium (46.1 %), Germany (43.7 %), Austria (42.7 %) and Hungary (41.2 %) and the lowest ones in Cyprus (22.5 %) followed by Ireland (26.0 %), Malta (27.1 %) and the Netherlands (27.2 %)."

We would have to nearly double the income tax take on those workers to get to the highest in the EU.

PommieBast

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122928088#Comment_122928088

At the time I left Ireland income above €35,000 was whacked for 52% tax (income+USC+PRSI). That threshold was below median income which implies the majority of earning people fell into the band.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122929656#Comment_122929656

The statistics are clear and factual, argue with them.

No matter how people feel about taxation, workers up to 125% of the average income in Ireland are among the lowest taxed in the EU. Go above that, and it quickly changes.

L1011

Tax credits, which not everywhere has, make a huge difference to the amount of tax paid versus the headline rates.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122929656#Comment_122929656

The focus on the marginal rate to the exclusion of everything else is not useful.

Most people will only be paying the higher rate on a small part of their income (if they pay it at all)

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122929539#Comment_122929539

It's just one fact-free post after another.

VinLieger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122929539#Comment_122929539

Any evidence at all to back up these absurd statements?

hotmail.com

Social Democrats reject any alliance with Labour to go into government.

It's pretty obvious that the Social Democrats are a fringe protest party.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122930419#Comment_122930419

Or playing a canny game having watched Labour and the Greens mess up in previous coalitions. At the end of the day here we are talking about politics and the art of doing it.

hotmail.com

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122930485#Comment_122930485

There's a place for protest parties in our Dail of course.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122930633#Comment_122930633

You reckon it's all over Hotmail? FF FG for ever more? Very pessimistic.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122930485#Comment_122930485

The art of politics is getting your policies implemented. It is not about keeping your bums on seats, it is not about shouting and roaring from the opposition benches, it is about going into government and getting things done. We already knew there were two useless parties in the Dail - PBP and SF - who are afraid of government, but seeing the SDs join them is disappointing.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122930810#Comment_122930810

I think the SocDems are taking a leaf form the Shinners book. Do not go into a government with FF FG because they will hang you out to dry no matter what you do.
Play the long game. bring their vote share down until they cannot control who governs.
FF FG hung the party you vote for out to dry, directly challenging them during the campaign and you still trenchantly defend them. Curious to say the least.

dulpit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122930810#Comment_122930810

I don't see this as the soc dems skipping out. The fact is, ff+FG is too close to the majority to allow the soc dems (or Labour) use the numbers they have to be effective. Ff+FG will know that if a third party threatens to walk they can let them and go get some independents.

If FF + FG were at like 78-80 then labour or Soc Dems would have had great leverage

Fionn1952

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122930810#Comment_122930810

That's a very facile way of looking at things, Blanch. Get one watered down policy implemented and condemn your party to decimation by being the usual government mudguard versus continuing to build support and be able to implement substantially more in future would be another way of looking at it.

By your reckoning, absolutely everyone should be willing to sacrifice pretty much their entire morals for a wink and a smile from the government party/parties.

Your constant hard on for criticising SF at all times is blinding you to the fact that Opposition is an important part of holding our government to account.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122931436#Comment_122931436

That isn't what I said. I looked back recently at the Greens manifesto from 2020, and it is actually surprising how much they got done. Go back further to the Progressive Democrats and you realise that the income tax system hasn't changed much from when they were in power. Leaving a legacy is more important to me than just being in government.

Take your favourite, Sinn Fein. If they got into power, had a successful border poll, and then faded into nothing, wouldn't most of those who voted for them be happy?

The purpose of opposition is to provide an alternative. In that, Sinn Fein have failed. I look forward with more optimism to seeing Labour and the Social Democrats provide that opposition.

I look at the PBP, they have been declining slightly for the last few elections as the diehard hard-left realise they aren't getting anything done.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122931206#Comment_122931206

You may be right, and in fact, since the misleading post I replied to, I have seen a more nuanced approach from the SDs. They are not willing to negotiate as a left alliance with FG/FF but are willing to negotiate as a stand-alone party. I take back my post classifying them in with the no-hopers from SF and PBP.

Fionn1952

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122932465#Comment_122932465

Now Blanch, you're perfectly aware I'm not a SF voter. I've consistently been very critical of them. While I favour Unification, as that isn't within the power of the Irish government to grant, it would be pretty idiotic to expect it from a SF government. I wouldn't vote for a party who activitely opposed Unification, but broadly speaking it would not be a huge consideration for me when ranking candidates to vote/transfer to.

Certainly one could look at the Greens manifesto and acknowledge the handful of tidbits they achieved and be grateful for that. One could just as easily hypothesise on what they could've potentially achieved if they continued to grow and joined government an election cycle or two later with substantially higher representation.

The purpose of the Opposition is absolutely not just to sit in waiting to form a future government. A strong Opposition is absolutely essential for holding government parties accountable in the current Dail session. The asking of Leader's Questions and bringing forward of Private Members Bills are an important part of our system of government.

My comment was in response to your characterisation of SDs (I acknowledge I could have made this clearer), which I see you've acknowledged the ridiculousness of and walked back from, but the core point stands alone: if the SDs decided to strategically opt out of sacrificing themselves as a FF/FG mudguard, believing that their representation will continue to increase and allow them to eventually sit in government with a much stronger mandate, it would not make them, 'afraid' of sitting in government as you so put.

It's also hard to understand precisely how you think SF should or could even try to form a government considering you also strongly opine that the only two realistic pathways do doing so have a mandate from their voters to not even consider coalescing with SF.

As always, I remain eternally glad that SF remain out of government because I think they're economically incompetent and don't think that promising half the country whatever they want to hear as long as they vote for you sets up a solid basis for governance.

Brussels Sprout

I see the new Soc Dem TD Eoin Hayes has managed to dig a hole for himself. He had shares in a company that he used work for who have subsequently made a lot of money off of the Israeli Genocide in Gaza. Cue those shares rocketing up in value over the past year. Hayes sold his shares this summer, a month after he was elected as a councilor. The problem for him though is that he stated that he had sold them before that election. He has now issued a correction and an apology.

As usual in politics, the damage isn't done by the initial incident but by the botched cover-up. It's probably lucky for him that this happens now at the very start of his Dail career rather than at some later date. No doubt this will thrown back at him come the next election by opponents on his left but that's a long time away now.

Brussels Sprout

Looks like the music stopped and Mattie didn't have a chair to sit on

Loafing Oaf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122946612#Comment_122946612

You'd imagine the Inds Group will take him in eventually. He certainly looks a better fit for that crew than Gogarty…

dulpit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122946781#Comment_122946781

Ya, Gogarty in thst group is odd. He was on radio after election saying he'd be open to joining a grouping as long as those he joined were in favour of green agendas and such. And then he ends up with independent Ireland and the likes of the healy raes. Odd.

Loafing Oaf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122947608#Comment_122947608

A couple of more interventions like this by DHR

could have Gogarty directing some more unparliamentary language against his own 'colleagues'