General Irish politics discussion thread

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122924649#Comment_122924649

I take it that you're not familiar with budgeting on a large scale.

The surplus, the Apple money, any extra money should not be used for current expenditure or political giveaways. We need massive investment in capital projects and rather than borrowing this money, we should use the "spare" cash we have. If you use the spare cash to offer tax reductions or similar then in a short enough space of time, you've none of this money left and pretty much nothing to show for it.

The reference to fearmongering is just daft!

Markus Antonius

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122924993#Comment_122924993

I already mentioned that it should be put towards critical infrastructure. But there is nothing stopping them from easing off on the stifling income tax as well. You are hook line and sinker to this idea that such cuts to tax would have to be "paid for" in other ways. They simply don't. Surpluses are absolutely useless, harmful even, in the hands of wasteful incompetent governments, therefore I would rather have that income tax money back in my own pocket.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122926501#Comment_122926501

In what way are surpluses harmful?

They can be used to pay off government debt.

Markus Antonius

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122927015#Comment_122927015

If the government takes in a surplus of income tax (which we have seen Paschal O'Donohue brag about on many occasions) It strains the financial security of workers and is a sign of a punitive system.

Judging by the responses I'm getting here, it's no wonder Paschal was able to brag so publicly and for the electorate to just sit and accept it. At least that's one thing I admire about the French.

dulpit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122927226#Comment_122927226

The taxes aren't punitive here. They pay for the services we need, and the services we need need investment. The money that is being spent should be spent better, but we should definitely spend more, not less.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122924649#Comment_122924649

Once you've lowered income tax it is extraordinarily difficult (and painful — personally, politically and economically) to raise it, and certainly to raise it quickly and in the short term, which is what would be required.

Your suggestion of using the CT returns to construct critical infrastructure is a much better one. But, obviously, to the extent that you do that, you can't also use it to cut income tax.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122927226#Comment_122927226

We don't have a punitive system. Most workers pay very little tax.

Markus Antonius

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122928088#Comment_122928088

You must be joking. Not only is the tax one of the highest in Europe, the cost of and quality of the services we get in return are atrocious. Definitely the worst tax-services ratio in Europe if not further.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122929539#Comment_122929539

Tax is above average for high earners - those earning above 100k. However, we have one of the lowest income tax burdens on low earners.

https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php?title=Wages_and_labour_costs#:~:text=It%20is%20defined%20as%20income,the%20euro%20area)%20in%202023.

"Figure 6 presents them for a low wage earner who earns two-thirds (67 %, to be exact) of the average earnings of a worker in the business economy (NACE Rev. 2, Sections B to N) and who is a single person without children.

The first indicator, tax wedge on labour costs, measures the burden of tax and social security contributions relative to labour cost. It is defined as income tax on gross wage earnings plus employee and employer social security contributions, expressed as a percentage of total labour costs. This tax wedge for the EU was 38.6 % (39.3 % for the euro area) in 2023. The highest tax wedges on labour costs of low-wage earners in 2023 were recorded in Belgium (46.1 %), Germany (43.7 %), Austria (42.7 %) and Hungary (41.2 %) and the lowest ones in Cyprus (22.5 %) followed by Ireland (26.0 %), Malta (27.1 %) and the Netherlands (27.2 %)."

We would have to nearly double the income tax take on those workers to get to the highest in the EU.

PommieBast

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122928088#Comment_122928088

At the time I left Ireland income above €35,000 was whacked for 52% tax (income+USC+PRSI). That threshold was below median income which implies the majority of earning people fell into the band.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122929656#Comment_122929656

The statistics are clear and factual, argue with them.

No matter how people feel about taxation, workers up to 125% of the average income in Ireland are among the lowest taxed in the EU. Go above that, and it quickly changes.

L1011

Tax credits, which not everywhere has, make a huge difference to the amount of tax paid versus the headline rates.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122929656#Comment_122929656

The focus on the marginal rate to the exclusion of everything else is not useful.

Most people will only be paying the higher rate on a small part of their income (if they pay it at all)

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122929539#Comment_122929539

It's just one fact-free post after another.

VinLieger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122929539#Comment_122929539

Any evidence at all to back up these absurd statements?

hotmail.com

Social Democrats reject any alliance with Labour to go into government.

It's pretty obvious that the Social Democrats are a fringe protest party.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122930419#Comment_122930419

Or playing a canny game having watched Labour and the Greens mess up in previous coalitions. At the end of the day here we are talking about politics and the art of doing it.

hotmail.com

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122930485#Comment_122930485

There's a place for protest parties in our Dail of course.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122930633#Comment_122930633

You reckon it's all over Hotmail? FF FG for ever more? Very pessimistic.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122930485#Comment_122930485

The art of politics is getting your policies implemented. It is not about keeping your bums on seats, it is not about shouting and roaring from the opposition benches, it is about going into government and getting things done. We already knew there were two useless parties in the Dail - PBP and SF - who are afraid of government, but seeing the SDs join them is disappointing.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122930810#Comment_122930810

I think the SocDems are taking a leaf form the Shinners book. Do not go into a government with FF FG because they will hang you out to dry no matter what you do.
Play the long game. bring their vote share down until they cannot control who governs.
FF FG hung the party you vote for out to dry, directly challenging them during the campaign and you still trenchantly defend them. Curious to say the least.

dulpit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122930810#Comment_122930810

I don't see this as the soc dems skipping out. The fact is, ff+FG is too close to the majority to allow the soc dems (or Labour) use the numbers they have to be effective. Ff+FG will know that if a third party threatens to walk they can let them and go get some independents.

If FF + FG were at like 78-80 then labour or Soc Dems would have had great leverage

Fionn1952

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122930810#Comment_122930810

That's a very facile way of looking at things, Blanch. Get one watered down policy implemented and condemn your party to decimation by being the usual government mudguard versus continuing to build support and be able to implement substantially more in future would be another way of looking at it.

By your reckoning, absolutely everyone should be willing to sacrifice pretty much their entire morals for a wink and a smile from the government party/parties.

Your constant hard on for criticising SF at all times is blinding you to the fact that Opposition is an important part of holding our government to account.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122931436#Comment_122931436

That isn't what I said. I looked back recently at the Greens manifesto from 2020, and it is actually surprising how much they got done. Go back further to the Progressive Democrats and you realise that the income tax system hasn't changed much from when they were in power. Leaving a legacy is more important to me than just being in government.

Take your favourite, Sinn Fein. If they got into power, had a successful border poll, and then faded into nothing, wouldn't most of those who voted for them be happy?

The purpose of opposition is to provide an alternative. In that, Sinn Fein have failed. I look forward with more optimism to seeing Labour and the Social Democrats provide that opposition.

I look at the PBP, they have been declining slightly for the last few elections as the diehard hard-left realise they aren't getting anything done.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122931206#Comment_122931206

You may be right, and in fact, since the misleading post I replied to, I have seen a more nuanced approach from the SDs. They are not willing to negotiate as a left alliance with FG/FF but are willing to negotiate as a stand-alone party. I take back my post classifying them in with the no-hopers from SF and PBP.

Fionn1952

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122932465#Comment_122932465

Now Blanch, you're perfectly aware I'm not a SF voter. I've consistently been very critical of them. While I favour Unification, as that isn't within the power of the Irish government to grant, it would be pretty idiotic to expect it from a SF government. I wouldn't vote for a party who activitely opposed Unification, but broadly speaking it would not be a huge consideration for me when ranking candidates to vote/transfer to.

Certainly one could look at the Greens manifesto and acknowledge the handful of tidbits they achieved and be grateful for that. One could just as easily hypothesise on what they could've potentially achieved if they continued to grow and joined government an election cycle or two later with substantially higher representation.

The purpose of the Opposition is absolutely not just to sit in waiting to form a future government. A strong Opposition is absolutely essential for holding government parties accountable in the current Dail session. The asking of Leader's Questions and bringing forward of Private Members Bills are an important part of our system of government.

My comment was in response to your characterisation of SDs (I acknowledge I could have made this clearer), which I see you've acknowledged the ridiculousness of and walked back from, but the core point stands alone: if the SDs decided to strategically opt out of sacrificing themselves as a FF/FG mudguard, believing that their representation will continue to increase and allow them to eventually sit in government with a much stronger mandate, it would not make them, 'afraid' of sitting in government as you so put.

It's also hard to understand precisely how you think SF should or could even try to form a government considering you also strongly opine that the only two realistic pathways do doing so have a mandate from their voters to not even consider coalescing with SF.

As always, I remain eternally glad that SF remain out of government because I think they're economically incompetent and don't think that promising half the country whatever they want to hear as long as they vote for you sets up a solid basis for governance.

Brussels Sprout

I see the new Soc Dem TD Eoin Hayes has managed to dig a hole for himself. He had shares in a company that he used work for who have subsequently made a lot of money off of the Israeli Genocide in Gaza. Cue those shares rocketing up in value over the past year. Hayes sold his shares this summer, a month after he was elected as a councilor. The problem for him though is that he stated that he had sold them before that election. He has now issued a correction and an apology.

As usual in politics, the damage isn't done by the initial incident but by the botched cover-up. It's probably lucky for him that this happens now at the very start of his Dail career rather than at some later date. No doubt this will thrown back at him come the next election by opponents on his left but that's a long time away now.

Brussels Sprout

Looks like the music stopped and Mattie didn't have a chair to sit on

Loafing Oaf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122946612#Comment_122946612

You'd imagine the Inds Group will take him in eventually. He certainly looks a better fit for that crew than Gogarty…

dulpit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122946781#Comment_122946781

Ya, Gogarty in thst group is odd. He was on radio after election saying he'd be open to joining a grouping as long as those he joined were in favour of green agendas and such. And then he ends up with independent Ireland and the likes of the healy raes. Odd.

Loafing Oaf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122947608#Comment_122947608

A couple of more interventions like this by DHR

could have Gogarty directing some more unparliamentary language against his own 'colleagues'

Hotblack Desiato

These 'technical groups' are the biggest load of nonsense ever.

dulpit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122948674#Comment_122948674

They're needed for speaking rights in the Dáil. It's a quirk from when the Dáil was mainly made up of parties only.

Loafing Oaf

Presumably there'll be a rejigging of the technical groups if and when some of the Independents reach an agreement on supporting an FFG government, as I can't see the entire Regional Group being invited to the party, certainly not Aontu…

I'm wondering did the Regional Group come together as a bloc with an eye to government formation, or were they just intended as a conventional technical group and Simon and Micheal took a look at them and decided

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122948739#Comment_122948739

Well maybe if you don't want to join a party you don't get the benefits of joining one.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122948852#Comment_122948852

All Government supporting TDs would be expected to drop out, although they don't have to. Cabinet members cannot be in a TG; which is why O'Gorman hasn't joined one yet - he's still in the cabinet.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122950076#Comment_122950076

They're also needed for parties with <5 TDs (formerly <7 - the 2002-7 TG had 6 Greens and 5 SF in it, rule then changed to 5)

Loafing Oaf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122950085#Comment_122950085

I get that, was wondering what would become of the leftovers, who will presumably number at least the Aontu duo. Hard to see Carol Nolan getting selected either unless the rest of the Regionals insist; I'd imagine FFG would see her as at least as much potential trouble as her former colleague Peadar.

I had assumed Mattie and two Healy Reas were automatic picks for this venture and were only being apparently left out because they didn't happen to be in the Regional Group but FF & FG might prefer the way things appear to be developing, less of an air of gombeenery about the whole enterprise. Maybe give ministerial positions to Harkin & Heneghan and they could put a vaguely 'progressive' gloss on the whole arrangement…

CrabRevolution

I don't know what gave anyone the impression that the Healy-Raes were going to potentially support the government, never mind being the most likely candidates for it. They get their votes by couriering passport forms to Dublin and shaking hands at funerals, not by actually achieving anything.

It'd be a risk for them to say they're going to do something in government, because they'd then be associated with any shortcomings in delivery (perceived or real).

marno21

If there's a full term ahead, DHR will be 75 come next election. Could very well be his last term before he hands over to (presumably) his son Johnny or daughter Maura.

Loafing Oaf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122950383#Comment_122950383

The expectation was not that they would be given ministerial positions or anything but that they would cut a deal to support the government 'from the outside', as their late father did before them, in return for some goodies for their constituency.

CrabRevolution

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122950437#Comment_122950437

Even that level of commitment is beyond them. Apart from the hand shaking, their main selling point is sticking it to them up in Dublin for the good of the real rural authentic country rural folk. How could they maintain that shtick if they're the ones keeping the government in power?

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122950076#Comment_122950076

Why should speaking rights, etc, in the Dáil be conditional on joining a political party? Independent TDs have the same electoral mandate and the same consitutional role as TDs who are members of a party.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122950087#Comment_122950087

Needed?

In some EU countries parties with such paltry support wouldn't make it into parliament at all.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122951333#Comment_122951333

It seems they are after something more than 1/174th of speaking rights

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122951362#Comment_122951362

In principle, they should have speaking (and other) rights that are equivalent to the rights of TDs who are members of parties. The "technical group" is a mechanism created to try to acheive this outcome.

Pete_Cavan

The Dáil can't be an Open Mic Night. We have enough performative outrage without giving evey Independent the chance for a self-indulgent rant to threw up on social media to show constituents how they are "representing" them (despite not actually delivering anything).

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122951487#Comment_122951487

Surely it's either a representation chamber or it's not?
Your performative outrage may be another's actual issue that needs addressing in parliament. Seeking to have something delivered is as much a function as 'delivering'.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122951487#Comment_122951487

You're not suggesting, presumably, that parallel treatment of party and non-party TDs in the management of the business of the House is going to turn the Dáil into an open mic night?

Pete_Cavan

If every TD has to have equal speaking rights, it would be difficult to get any business done. It could also undermine the party system. What would people see as the benefits to treating party and non-party TDs?