General Irish politics discussion thread

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120387949#Comment_120387949

So what 'causes' did the GFA address?

Did it address the lack of democracy when it enshrined these principles?

3. We are committed to partnership, equality and mutual respect as the basis of relationships within Northern Ireland, between North and South, and between these islands.

4. We reaffirm our total and absolute commitment to exclusively democratic and peaceful means of resolving differences on political issues, and our opposition to any use or threat of force by others for any

You are also rubbishing the view of John Hume who was quite clear about the lack of democracy in the north:

What it means is that their exclusive hold on power has gone and is not coming back. 

The power of veto on British policy which they have always had, and which goes to the heart of our problem here, has gone and is not coming back. 

The bolding is mine for emphasis on what the fundamental problems were that caused the conflict.

The very same veto/denial of democracy Michael Martin references that is happening to this very day.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120388172#Comment_120388172

The GFA got the paramilitaries / terrorists / men of violence / call them what you want to put their guns beyond use / semtex beyond use etc.

There were full and free elections before the GFA. Not other peoples fault Sinn Fein got little electoral support in both parts of Ireland before the GFA. Not other peoples fault SF when they did / do get elected in N.I. are unwilling to take their seats in the UK parliament when the opportunity arises. There was also a "Border referendum" in N.I. the early seventies, on the question if N.I. should leave the UK or not : not other peoples fault that on a voter turnout of 58.7 percent, 98.9 percent voted to remain in the UK. So even if those too lazy to turnout and those who boycotted the referendum for whatever reason did somehow all vote to leave the UK, the clear majority in the referendum voted to stay part of the UK.

Bit rich of you to complain about the democracy in these islands when the people you defend murdered thousands on this island, including some of our Gardai.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120388268#Comment_120388268

We are discussing MM's comments, not SF.

Here again is John Hume pointing out the 'lack of democracy' in the north. A comment re-iterated by Michael Martin.

What it means is that their exclusive hold on power has gone and is not coming back. 

The power of veto on British policy which they have always had, and which goes to the heart of our problem here, has gone and is not coming back. 

Are you disagreeing with Hume as well as Martin by claiming that 'Democracy did exist in N. Ireland before the GFA was signed.'

If you are claiming this, please explain how one side having an 'exclusive hold on power' is anything approaching 'democracy'.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120388312#Comment_120388312

Hume took part in free and fair elections before the GFA, of course there was democracy in N.Ireland before the GFA. Hume got the same pay and vote as a nationalist MP as any unionist MP.

There was a referendum: it showed that unionists were by far in the majority. I am not saying the democracy was always perfect : but show me a place in the world where it was perfect. No excuse for terrorism / violence.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120388371#Comment_120388371

You can hold elections and pretend there is democracy - happens in plenty of places.

Please explain how a party having an 'exclusive hold on power' is 'democracy'?

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120388410#Comment_120388410

Nobody in the UK had an exclusive hold on power, there were different Labour and Tory / Conservative governments for example. Not perfect but probably a better system that that of the USA for example. Democracy not perfect but the places where some people got some support? ( Libya , FARC controlled part of Columbia ) were probably worse.

Bit rich that those who complained about democracy most were those who supported the murder of democratic politicians who they did not agree with in N. I. like Stronge MP, Bradford MP, Edgar Graham, John Barnhill etc, and for which they have not apologised. They also claim they boycotted the '73 Border Poll referendum in N.I, and in national elections refused to take their seats in Westminster if / when elected...and they complain about democracy?

Show me a place in the world where democracy was perfect? Do not forget in the last Border Poll referendum in N.I, which was the early seventies, on a voter turnout of 58.7 percent, 98.9 percent voted to remain in the UK. So as said before, even if those too lazy to turnout and those who boycotted the referendum for whatever reason did somehow all vote to leave the UK, the clear majority in the referendum voted to stay part of the UK.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120388468#Comment_120388468

Nobody in the UK had an exclusive hold on power,

So you disagree with John Hume now as well.

NI was a one party state in the opinion of all but a few ouliers who cannot face the facts. Other examples of one party states are North Korea, Erithrea, China and many of the states that emerged from the Soviet Union break up.

Michael Martin, whom you also disagree with was referencing the DUP trying to return NI to pre GFA days.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120388497#Comment_120388497

I would agree with much of what Hume and Michael Martin would say, but not everything. They would not be my favourite politicans or parties in the world, so why would I need to agree with everything they say? As far as I know, neither of them compared N.Ireland before the GFA to one party states are North Korea, Erithrea, China and many of the states that emerged from the Soviet Union break up.

Be thankful you do not live in North Korea, Erithrea, China etc.

Water John

Seamus Mallon's verdict rings true, 'GFA was Sunningdale for slow learners'

The civil rights movement had moved the dial majorly, just the extremists on both sides, couldn't support it. Bloodshed since Sunningdale definitely no justified.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120388557#Comment_120388557

I wanted to establish that your opinion is an outlier one and deeply insulting to those (John Hume included) who had to live under the one party state that NI was.

'Be thankful you didn't live in it', indeed.

P.S. I compared it to other states which are one party.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120388590#Comment_120388590

Sunningdale excluded people from the table, it was doomed to failure and in many respects, made things worse. There were other key differences too.

The Anglo Irish Agreement, which ended the Unionist veto was the actual gamechanger and paved the way for the GFA.

But probably for another thread.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120388614#Comment_120388614

If John Hume and his party were more successful in attracting voters in the couple of decades before the GFA, then he may have been more successful and even had a majority. However, there were more voters in N.I. that wanted to vote Unionist - between the UUP and DUP among others - than wanted to vote for Hume and his party (and/or SF). The elections before the GFA were free and fair. The Border Poll referendum in 1973 in N.I. was free and fair : one vote per adult.

For you to compare N.Ireland before the GFA to one party states are North Korea, Erithrea, China etc is an insult to the many good people who fought to keep the UK free from becoming under the control of one party states.

Be thankful you never lived in a one party state, and you have freedom of travel and a decent standard of living.

Note how you never condemned the murders of N.I. politicians with whom you would not have agreed e.g. Stronge MP, Bradford MP, Edgar Graham, John Barnhill etc,

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120388730#Comment_120388730

Last word on this:

If you design a statelet to have a majority (partition) and allow that majority a veto and to further entrench their supremacy - (alá Hume ' an exclusive hold on power'), don't act suprised when there is majority support for anything Unionist, and don't be surprised if it eventually goes up in flames when you have to beat objectors off the streets and shoot them dead. That, as Hume (beaten off the streets himself) said, was at the 'heart of the problem', a one party state that would not allow reform.

Francis McM

My last word on this:

There were some injustices in N.I. but two sides to the story. For you to complain that N.I. before the GFA to one party states like North Korea, Erithrea, China says more about you than anything else.

Even Hume acknowledged there were multiple parties in N.I., among his own party the SDLP. It may not have attracted as many votes as the UUP or DUP, but minority politicians or parties in the Republic or other countries did and do not attract as many votes as their more successful competitors either.

The Border Poll referendum in 1973 in N.I. was free and fair : one vote per adult. Be thankful you never lived in N.Korea, China etc

Still waiting for you to condemn the deliberate murders of N.I. politicians with whom you would have disagreed e.g. Stronge MP, Bradford MP, Edgar Graham, John Barnhill etc. When people do not condemn the murders of those democratic politicans, and instead teach the younger generation to chant uh ah up the ra, do not be surprised when off an duty policeman gets shot in the back after training kids at a football club in Omagh.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120388845#Comment_120388845

Even Hume acknowledged there were multiple parties in N.I., among his own party the SDLP.

Just replying to Fact check: There are 'other parties' in North Korea, China etc. They even hold elections.

However they are 'one party states' with one party with an 'exclusive hold on power'.

FrancieBrady

Labour to put down a Motion of No Confidence in the government.

https://twitter.com/drivetimerte/status/1638605633233485825

blanch152

https://www.rte.ie/news/politics/2023/0322/1365582-ireland-politics/

Common sense prevails and the SF motion is defeated. I had to laugh when I read this:

"Speaking before the Dáil vote, Labour's Finance Spokesperson Ged Nash asked how much it will cost the taxpayer for Government to secure the votes of the Regional Independent TDs"

Compared to the policies being put forward by Labour and the other idiots on the opposition benches, the taxpayer will be very grateful that the government succeeded. We will now have the farcical no confidence motion from Labour. I am sure that the foregone conclusion of the government winning the vote will be bigged up by a few posters as a big thing for a few days. More nonsense we have to put up with.

As for Neasa, she'll probably end up as a running mate for Mary-Lou in Dublin Central, putting another fake facade on the face of Sinn Fein.

FrancieBrady

As anyone who follows politics knows, the purpose of a No Confidence motion is not always to bring down the government.

It's sometimes about maximising the amount of time the government have to squirm and defend.

Sticks in the voters memory better, that way.

hotmail.com

A matter of time before we have an interview with Neasa 'publicity' Hourigan announcing she's left the Green Party.

FrancieBrady

Niall Collin's inability to give a straight answer putting him back front and centre.

https://twitter.com/ClaireBrockTV/status/1638687542080942080

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120388902#Comment_120388902

Odd. You'd think he was the party leader or something. Why wasn't Bacik put forward to make a 'big' announcement like that? ('big' because although the party would no doubt consider this a big deal, it doesn't have a hope in hell of getting anywhere)

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120390819#Comment_120390819

Probably innocent enough.

O'Riordan would have been booked onto a prime time radio show, so he got the job.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120390819#Comment_120390819

Bacik won't want to be associated with a damp squib.

Despite this being bigged up on here as something important, it hasn't a hope in hell following the deal with the regional independents which has wrong-footed the opposition. It opens up the opportunity for the government to once again expose the repeated hypocrisy of the opposition.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120391080#Comment_120391080

She has tweeted about it to over 30,000 people who follow her + plus those who retweet etc. If she didn't want to be associated with it she wouldn't go on the most popular political platform there is, to announce it.

Beechwoodspark

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120390377#Comment_120390377

That clown Niall Collins was absolutely woeful last night.

He came across as a complete thick trying to be smart with everyone.

Shady as it gets - the sooner he resigns or is forced to resign the better.

He needs to be dumped out of the dail ASAP and then a full investigation by the revenue and other bodies into his dealings.

FrancieBrady

I agree with Varadkar here, it is largely political theatre.

But it is effective political theatre and he'd do the same in a heartbeat in opposition.

He knows the point of this is to cast the government as the villians of the piece and that will do damage.

https://twitter.com/thejournal_ie/status/1638883589181046786

Podge_irl

I don't really see how a failed vote of confidence is effective anything. Especially not with the frequency it seems to be wheeled out.

Calling a vote of no confidence essentially against legislation that just passed (as opposed to against an individual for their conduct) is particularly perverse.

The govt has been casst as the villians already by all those inclined to do so.

(and yes, I suspect he'd do he same in opposition, and it would be equally pointless)

Loafing Oaf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120391545#Comment_120391545

I suppose at a constituency level it might help to pressurise independents backing the government, many of whom adopt an 'anti-establishment' posture even though they might be labeled as 'conservative'...

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120391545#Comment_120391545

Have to agree for the most part. It is posturing from the opposition.

On whether he would do the same in opposition, I wonder about that. To me, the frequency of votes of confidence has increased significantly with the current opposition compared to previous government terms, are there any stats around that?

Certainly, what can be said, is that the more often confidence votes are tabled, the less effective they are.

FrancieBrady

Since the vote in 2000 there have been votes of 'confidence in the government (the actual vote is on a countermotion brought by the government) there have been votes in 2007, 2009, 2010, 2012, 2014, 2015, 2017 & 2022