General Irish politics discussion thread

political analyst

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120436487#Comment_120436487

An announcement of the cutting of ties with the PIRA would, in itself, be an acknowledgement that the PIRA and SF were connected in the first place. Therefore, it wouldn't be whitewashing.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120437272#Comment_120437272

SF were the political reps of the IRA.

If they announce a separation it would be called as a cynical attempt to distance themselves for political gain.

I don’t see any evidence of even a desire to do that much less a sign that they might consider it.

PommieBast

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120437507#Comment_120437507

At this stage most people don't care. Bringing up SF+IRA just sounds like FF/FG scraping the bottom of the barrel so best thing SF can do is keep their mouths shut. And for once they are managing to do so.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120436247#Comment_120436247

For the reason you yourself point out — she doesn't need to, because most young people don't have strong views either way on the troubles. So the closeness is not electorally problematic; it does not alienate voters.

I'm old enough to remember when SF first started to engage in electoral politics. The closeness, whether actual or perceived, to the Provos was a real problem for them. While the "armed struggle" was ongoing, many people who could see what that was like simply could not bring themselves to vote for SF, regardless of their views on a united Ireland. The more the armes struggle recedes into history, the less problematic that link is for SF.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120437804#Comment_120437804

because most young people don't have strong views either way on the troubles

There is a recent precedent for it. My parents generation voted for people who had done some pretty nasty things in order to achieve our independence or to shape that independence. And they took sides in the political civil war that continued after the military one.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120438112#Comment_120438112

That is just "whataboutery". What about the old IRA and the parties of the 20s and 30s. Ireland was a basket case for many decades after independence, we do not want to go back to those times.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120438112#Comment_120438112

Yes. It's painful but, basically, there has to be an avenue by which the gunman becomes the statesman because, if there isn't, he remains a gunman, and why would we want that?

I have never voted for SF and I never would because of what I went through back in the day. But someone younger than me can because, to them, its history. I not only accept that but I recognise it as a necessary phenomenon because, without out, no progress towards truly democratic politics is possible.

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120438475#Comment_120438475

Ireland up to the 1950s, and even 1960s was a basket case because they had no access to funds. The Irish Gov was inward looking because of that, and anything achieved was in the face of that - like Ard na Crusha and rural electrification. We were totally broke - and the British Gov had an economic war with us in the 1930s that destroyed our rural economy - which meant that when WW II came along, there was no beef for them.

The Civil War had little to do with our lack lustre economic performance over the first 50 years of independence. Even Ford was enticed out of Cork and into Dagenham by the British Gov - now that was nothing to do with the old IRA.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120436487#Comment_120436487

Still has not explained why Mary Lou has not put distance between Sinn Féin and the Provisional IRA, as someone else asked about 6 or 8 posts ago.

There is a simple answer though. If the IRA control Sinn Fein, as the Gardai and M15 said, then of course it is not up to Mary Lou to distance SF from the IRA. She does what the IRA says. Who chose Mary Lou? There was no open vote or debate or anything? Nobody opposed her. Correct me if I am wrong, but was she not appointed as leader of SF from behind closed doors in early 2018 in some room in Belfast? The previous leader ( who says he was not in the IRA but very few believe him ) held the position from 1983 to 2018 I believe. He said (the IRA) "have not gone away" but why not? Should SF not be controlled by SF themselves, or by its members / the public?

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120438507#Comment_120438507

Generally, I think it the height of hypocrisy to appeal to people to enter democratic politics and then get sniffy when they do that.

I had to think long and hard before I gave SF a vote at the last GE, but once I satisfied myself via the Monitoring Commissions that they had embraced demcratic politics I could not see any reason why they wouldn't qualify for a vote.

As you say the next generation will have less of a problem and the next and next and so on. Just as my generation would have had no problem alternating between FG and FF while the previous one would never have dreamt of switching allegiance from either one of the civil war parties

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120438544#Comment_120438544

I have answered why I think she won't and why SF won't.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120438511#Comment_120438511

I think the cause of the "economic war" was not entirely Britain's fault as you seem to suggest. The Irish government refused to continue reimbursing Britain with land annuities from financial loans granted to Irish tenant farmers to enable them to purchase lands under the Irish Land Acts in the late nineteenth century, a provision which had been part of the 1921 Anglo-Irish Treaty. During the 1930s the Irish Free State also sought £400 million in respect of Britain's taxation of Ireland between 1801 and 1922, so no surprise Ireland had little or no friends in the world to trade with in the 1930s. The mismanagement of Ireland, including the excesses of the Catholic Church here, in the half century or so since independence cannot be blamed solely on the British.

Ford in Dagenham started in 1931 and was a lot bigger than the ford plant in Cork ever was. Ford in Cork only closed in the early to mid 1980s I seem to remember. I remember the reputation it had for quality was woeful. It assembled Sierras but there I remember someone saying threre was a two inch gap at the side of the dash on his. Officially, the closure was largely attributed to the removal of restrictions on the imports of fully built motor vehicles into Ireland under European rules. You cannot blame the British for it.

NB not many people may know it but the Ford Cork factory was the first factory Ford had purposely built outside of America anywhere in the world. He decided to use Cork as the place for his first factory abroad as it was in Ballinascarty, County Cork where the Ford family emigrated from in 1832 after living in Cork for over 300 years. For tourism I think a lot more could be made of things like that, for example a museum of Ford cars with pictures of the old factory. It was great that Ford came back to the place of his ancestors to set up his first factory outside America.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120438593#Comment_120438593

Well, if SF ( and Mary Lou) is controlled by the IRA ( as the Gardai and M15 said) it is fairly obvious why she won't.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120436247#Comment_120436247

I would guess that the poor old Tonight Show will be getting a few legal writs incoming after the hammering that Sinn Fein took on it last night. This attack on the gardai by Eoin O'Broin is not going away as an issue.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120438680#Comment_120438680

In the interest of transparency, you have repeated this over the last few days so can you provide a link to where you read this confirmation from AGS & MI5?

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120438683#Comment_120438683

The 'attack' the AGSI head said had been clarified to her satisfaction.

Cunningham said that Ó Broin has “since clarified that the tweet was intended as a criticism of Government policy and not An Garda Síochána”.

She said that she believed that the Sinn Féin housing spokesperson’s phone call was “sincere”. 

“This afternoon I received a phone call from deputy O’Broin and he was very clear that he didn’t mean to offend, criticise, or indeed drag An Garda Síochána into any political controversy.

I think it is the editor of a certain newspaper and former FG member that has questions to answer after last night's show. Bizarre performance to be honest, but not surprising.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120438683#Comment_120438683

Great distraction tactic, right? Let’s avoid talking about actual homelessness and talk about artistic parodies instead.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120438698#Comment_120438698

I wrote ( post no 1170 ) "There were reports in the Irish Times and the Guardian etc in the not too distant past that said both the Garda and MI5 say Sinn Fein is still run by the IRA. I am not saying if they were right or wrong. I know nothing."

Google is your friend

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/garda-commissioner-stands-over-ira-sinn-fein-remarks-1.4185888

https://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/politics/ira-is-armed-and-still-gathering-intelligence-on-opponents-says-leaked-mi5-psni-assessment-3054267

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/oct/20/ira-still-exists-but-in-much-reduced-form-says-official-report

https://www.newstalk.com/news/drew-harris-agrees-psni-view-army-council-oversees-sinn-fein-ira-971307

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120438798#Comment_120438798

I am aware of what you wrote which was vague, hence why I asked. As for "Google is your friend", it's not my role to verify your claims.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120438798#Comment_120438798

From the Irish Times:

What exactly does the latest assessment say?

The PSNI said its analysis of the link between the IRA and Sinn Féin remains the same as that laid out in a joint assessment conducted with MI5 in 2015. In that report, a number of definitive statements were made about the IRA including that its structures remained “in a much reduced form”, that it is not actively recruiting and that its leadership is committed to achieving a united Ireland through peaceful means.

Crucially, it stated it was the view of IRA members that the army council oversees both the IRA and Sinn Féin “with an overarching strategy”. This strategy has “a wholly political focus”, it added.

Which is the same conclusion the IMC came to.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120438812#Comment_120438812

What is vague about what the media reported? I supplied some links. Other links are behind paywalls.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120438843#Comment_120438843

Quotations from link, for those who do not read the link:

The Chief Constable has said the PSNI still stands over the 2015 Assessment of Paramilitary groups which asserts an ongoing relationship between the IRA Army Council and Sinn Fein.

Simon Byrne told the News Letter that the ongoing role of loyalist and republican paramilitaries in Northern Ireland politics is still “very relevant” and “a shame” in light of twenty years having passed since the Patten Report envisioned a fresh start to policing.

The 2015 ‘Assessment of Paramilitary Groups in Northern Ireland’ said that the PIRA Army Council was still overseeing both Sinn Fein and the remaining structures of the terror organisation with an “over arching strategy”.

The report said: “PIRA members believe that the PAC [Provisional Army Council] oversees both PIRA and Sinn Fein with an overarching strategy”.

The government report, published in 2015 and based on PSNI and MI5 assessments, concluded that the second largest political party in both Northern Ireland and – now the Republic of Ireland also – continues to be overseen by the deadliest terror group of the Troubles, which although much reduced in scale and “committed to the peace process”, still has “specific” departments and “regional command structures”, gathers intelligence, retains weapons and has been involved in “isolated incidents of violence, including murders”.

https://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/crime/psni-assessment-of-ira-army-council-relationship-with-sinn-fein-remains-unchanged-says-chief-constable-simon-byrne-3187440

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120438934#Comment_120438934

“committed to the peace process”, 

Which is what they were asked to do.

As usual the Newsletter is gilding the lily from it's overt Unionist perspective, here is what the ACTUAL report says:

*Apologies, PDF won't allow me to cut and paste.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/469548/Paramilitary_Groups_in_Northern_Ireland_-_20_Oct_2015.pdf

Intelligence gathering is to keep an eye on dissidents who would kill IRA members if they could. And weapon retention is to keep them out of the hands of dissidents. 'Individual' members have been involved in crime but the government believes that 'PIRA's leadership remains committed to the peace process'.

This is what the IMC concluded as well.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120439020#Comment_120439020

You say "Intelligence gathering is to keep an eye on dissidents who would kill IRA members if they could."

That is stretching the truth a bit, is it not? Why would those who control SF need to keep an eye on dissidents who would kill IRA members if they could? Is that not a job for the police?

You say " And weapon retention is to keep them out of the hands of dissidents. " I thought - as did most other people I would assume who voted for the GFA - that the IRA had surrendered all its arms / semtex etc / had them put beyond use by the authorities? Why should it be use to one arm of the secret IRA to decide behind everyone's backs to keep some of its weapons out of the hands of another arm of the secret IRA who it does not currently agree with? Should it not up to others in our supposedly democratic society (eg Gardai, PSNI ) to handle / safeguard weapons property?

It is new news for you to admit that those who control SF are retaining weapons " to keep them out of the hands of dissidents.". If SF got in to government, and it changed its minds again, who is to say the same weapons would not be used in the future, either accidentally or on purpose? Lets face it all political parties change their minds, I remember in the early seventies SF were very against Ireland joining the EU ( EEC as it was called then ), now it is very pro EU.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120439168#Comment_120439168

Anyone can change their mind and resort to violence.

FF arrived into the first Dáil armed and there was zero decommissioning. Arms were allowed rust away and could have been put back into use again at any time.

I have never claimed that the peace process was 'perfect', and we see evidence to this day that it still hasn't fully bedded in, with paramilitaries making shows of strength outside primary schools etc.

The key findings that allowed me vote for SF however are those that have said that PIRA are 'committed to the peace process', and are committed to peaceful means to achieve their overarching strategy' etc.

That is what they were asked to do.

Why were a small amount of weapons retained? I'd imagine because they didn't trust the police for a long time after the signing of the GFA.

Nothing is perfect, and the peace process is no different. It is an ongoing process, nothing unusual about that in post conflict/war societies. The civil war did not finally end here for a long time after the fighting/killing stopped.

political analyst

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120438507#Comment_120438507

If SF is in government in the Republic after the next general election, what would be done regarding ministers' access to files about Garda informers who were inside the PIRA during the Troubles? I guess that Garda HQ could take action similar to what US diplomats in Kabul did at the end of August in 2021.

political analyst

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120438734#Comment_120438734

It's not like Sheehan was throwing chairs, in all fairness.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120439308#Comment_120439308

??

political analyst

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120439335#Comment_120439335

Sheehan was annoyed but I think the way in which he reacted to the artist's comments is exaggerated. Some people on social media are portraying Sheehan as if he was an out-of-control guest on The Jerry Springer Show.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120439359#Comment_120439359

He did react to the artist's comment, by getting increasingly more bizarre and out of control of what he was saying.

The mistake he made was to try and use a smarter (than him) artist to get at O'Broin. The artist won, in fairness.

He got destroyed and is getting pilliored for his efforts on SM. Nothing 'exaggerated' about it.

A newspaper editor who regularly uses artists to have political goes at many, getting in a flap about 'political art'. What a clanging embarrassment he made of himself.