General Irish politics discussion thread

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120779656#Comment_120779656

I clarified what I meant which wasn’t what you projected. You’ll have to deal with it.

You are not interested in the substantive point so we are done I suppose.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120779632#Comment_120779632

Yes. Enough do.

The entire electorate are not blame though that is just lazy blame shifting.

We have heard again and again promises to reform from the parties in government. It never happens. SIPO a case in point, despite asking for years for more powers—- still toothless.

….but but it’s the electorates fault.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120779704#Comment_120779704

I don't blame every member of the electorate for anything. But as a cohort they absolutely deserve what they get in their elected politicians. Just like they'll deserve whatever a SF govt means for good or ill when the time comes.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120779900#Comment_120779900

How do I in Monaghan deserve Jackie Healy Rae or Colm Brophy eyc?

That’s just lazy deflection presumably because you have some objection to criticism of the government.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120777501#Comment_120777501

Oh wow.

What a thoroughly daft post. Do you live in this jurisdiction because you seem to not understand our electoral system, at all.

By definition if a TD is elected, they have not been rejected.

But Michael Healy-Rae or Michael Lowry regularly top polls.

Explain whose fault that is, if not their voters.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120777702#Comment_120777702

Well you'd have to be naive in the extreme to vote for any of the big three parties if you want political reform. It's not in the interests of any of them.

And I don't think it's an at all outrageous claim to say that SF have the most to fear from an unleashed SIPO than anyone else.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120780455#Comment_120780455

Your inability to understand the simple point made - that it is not always the electorate's fault somebody gets elected due to the PR system - is your problem.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120780463#Comment_120780463

That is hilarious given we have had 100 years of FG and FF in office and we still have toothless regulation and practically zero accountability. But..but..the Shinners.

Peregrinus

The PR system accurately reflects voters' choices with a high degree of fidelity. If a candidate is elected, that is always because more voters wanted them elected than wanted any of the unsuccessful candidates elected. And if a candidate isn't elected, that's always because more voters preferred the successful candidates.

The system probably gives voters more power, and parties less power, than almost any other. It's pretty much the last system which would enable voters to disclaim responsibility for the outcome of an election.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120780644#Comment_120780644

I agree it is by far the best system but I don't believe you can blame all the electorate when dodgy TD's get re-elected.

And how somebody (which was the original exchange) can blame the electorate for the fact we have no serious political reform and accountability defeats me.

It's a lazy deflection.

Sam Russell

The STV version of proportional representation give the voters the possibility to not only vote FOR a candidate or a party but also to NOT VOTE for a party.

This means pariah parties might get lots of first pref votes, but no transfer votes as the count progressed. SF suffered from this for years. Other parties, like the Greens, got enough first pref votes to keep them in the running, but got transfers all down the card that got elected finally on the last count.

That is the nature of the system. All those elected are validly elected, whether first count or last count.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120780682#Comment_120780682

You will note I never claimed somebody being elected was 'invalid'.

That was not the point.

The point was, it is lazy deflection to blame the electorate because political parties and politicians do not introduce the reforms and promises they make year on year on year.

marno21

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120780653#Comment_120780653

Can you define what you mean by a dodgy TD?

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120780707#Comment_120780707

I was quoting a poster above, who used that term.

I take it to mean, corrupt TD's who are on the take or who are acting in the interests of others rather than the electorate.

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120780724#Comment_120780724

But surely if a TD is on the 'take', then it is up to SIPO to react and take action against that TD.

A TD is not necessarily 'corrupt' if they represent interests that others would prefer were not represented. Surely, the electorate for that particular TD would be aware, or well aware, of the point of view of the TD, and probably enough agree with the TD to get them elected.

'Kerry First' is a good slogan for a Kerry TD, but not for one running in Dublin. That the TD gets elected safely, topping the poll, is a sign that the voters in Kerry also want 'Kerry First'.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120780842#Comment_120780842

SIPO haven't been given the powers they require for years.

Surely, the electorate for that particular TD would be aware, or well aware, of the point of view of the TD,

Without referencing specific cases, absolutely NO, many voters would not be aware of a TD representing interests until they are exposed. See The Village, The Ditch and many exposures across mainstream media.

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120780859#Comment_120780859

I would think that the 'many voters' you cite are probably not those that vote for that particular TD. SIPO will make life uncomfortable for a TD by just publishing the facts.

The media do a reasonable job of outing corruption, but could do better. The Village and The Ditch appear to be driven by partisan grudges.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120780869#Comment_120780869

Well, if you can ignore what the Ditch and Village have revealed and continue to reveal by saying they are partisan, then you are being partisan yourself tbh.

I would think that the 'many voters' you cite are probably not those that vote for that particular TD. SIPO will make life uncomfortable for a TD by just publishing the facts.

Can you elaborate here. Seems to me you are saying that some voters are aware a politicians is acting corruptly and are ok with that.

To cite a notorious case here, I would say the majority of my fellow voters did not know of Hughie McElevaney's penchant for sterling until he was exposed.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120780859#Comment_120780859

Your posts on the electoral system have been horribly exposed as inaccurate. Now you are off on an incoherent inaccurate rant about political reform.

The electorate have rejected most recent attempts at political reform. The Oireachtas Committee and Senate reform referenda were both defeated, clearly sending a signal that the electorate as a whole do not believe that reform is a priority. And why would they?

https://www.transparency.org/en/cpi/2022

Ireland is widely recognised as one of the least corrupt countries in the world. Banging on about corruption and reform is an easy cop-out for an opposition party and whinging hurlers on the ditch like Cosgrave, but not an electoral priority.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120780624#Comment_120780624

Not the electorate's fault if someone gets elected... Don't know whether to laugh or cry with that one.

Many, many people have pinned their hopes on SF for reform of the political system (among many other things) and it's perfectly justified and relevant to point out that those hopes are built on sand - SF have even more skeletons in their closet, not helped by arbitraging between two jurisdictions to circumvent the laws in either as suits them at the time.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120781075#Comment_120781075

How many pinned their hopes on New Politics in 2011, the repeated promises to give SIPO more power etc etc etc.

I will judge SF on how they perform just as I judged the FG party I voted for in 2011 and 2016 (Yes, I regret buying the lies AGAIN)

*And do me a favour and do NOT cut words out of what I am saying to have a go. It just makes you look like a dis-ingenuous sensationalist.

that it is not always the electorate's fault somebody gets elected due to the PR system

To cite the same case as above, I no longer gave Hughie McElvaney a vote locally after he was exposed, and many many others didn't either but he STILL got elected...is that my or those who removed their vote's fault?

Are we to 'blame' or is that just a vagary of the PR system we have to put up with?

Please address what I am actually saying and not what you think I am saying here.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120780724#Comment_120780724

All opinion polls show that the people of Northern Ireland do not want a united Ireland, and the referendum of 1974 expressed this clearly.

By your definition, any MLA or MP who is calling for a united Ireland or campaigning for a united Ireland is not acting in the interests of the electorate.

This shows that your posts on the issue are complete nonsense.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120781133#Comment_120781133

It is always the electorate's fault that a politician gets elected, it is the basis of democracy. Trying to argue otherwise is laughable.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120781133#Comment_120781133

Of course it's always the electorate's fault and suggesting otherwise is plain daft.

NB 'electorate' is a collective noun.

And unless you are utterly indifferent to politics, you will always have to put up with the election of people you'd rather not see elected, regardless of the electoral system used.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120781246#Comment_120781246

I have shown you via a particular case that it isn't 'always' their fault.

It is always 'some' of the electorates fault...that is what you mean. And I agree with that.

What this is called is nuance. The PR-STV system is nuanced and has vagaries as pointed out.

Blaming the electorate as a whole is not nuanced, it's a deflection from criticism.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120781290#Comment_120781290

You said and I quote "it is not always the electorate's fault somebody gets elected."

Now you are saying and I quote "It is always 'some' of the electorates fault"

Those two phrases have completely different meanings, and your attempt to spin them as the same is laughable.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120781469#Comment_120781469

They don't.

You cannot blame all of the electorate, you can blame some of them.

rock22

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120781494#Comment_120781494

Of course. All the electorate who don't vote as I do are obviously idiots.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120781746#Comment_120781746

🙄

Where have I said these things?

The pure invention here to avoid accepting a criticism of the failure of the body politic to establish proper accountability and regulation is bizarre.

It's blame anyone but those responsible for making legislation.

I am not responding to anymore invention around a simple point.

Podge_irl

The electorate refers to the entire body of people as a whole, not the members of the body.

Considering we don't live in a corrupt police-state, no person or idea ever actually gets 100% of the vote, so saying "well everyone didn't vote for them" is utterly redundant. For anyone to get elected, with very limited exceptions, a sufficient number of people have expressed an active preference for them.

The electorate sent the 160 TDs to the Dáil that the electorate wanted regardless of my personal feelings around a number of them.

Obviously those in the legislature are responsible for their own actions once they are there. Outside of criminal activity, they are also judged on those actions in the form of elections and if the electorate returns them, then clearly its a sign of approval. Much "proper accountability" for politicians ultimately comes down to voters.

To put it another way, everyone bears some, if not equal, responsibility.

FrancieBrady

It will be an absolute scandal if the government do not ask this RTE board to resign or sack them after this. They are having a nightmare in front of PAC.