General Irish politics discussion thread

Sam Russell

The constitution requires 15 Ministers, which has been modified to allow 15 (ish) Junior Ministers. So assume 30 ministers is the actual number.

So if there are that many Gov TDs as Ministers, plus a number of committee chairmen, say, 10, then 40 TDs are accounted for. Now not all TDs are capable or willing to do these jobs, so the Gov party/parties need to be at least 80 strong. This suggests a minimum number of TDs to be 160.

That would be the minimum, and the increased work of Ministers because of the EU responsibilities would suggest that would be about the lower limit.

However, it should be expected that the parish pump stuff should be consigned to the County Councillors.

Peregrinus

Agree with most of this. The governing party/coalition, which usually has slightly more than half of the TDs, needs to have enough TDs to fill all the ministerial/parliamentary/party positions, plus more TDs who are bright enough and ambitious to be able to fill them, so that there's a bit of competition to keep people on their toes and a bit of resilience to be able to move people around, plus yet more TDs who will actually concentrate on legislation and/or constituency work.

As for transferring the parish pump stuff to county councillors, that only works if the county councils are actually given effective control over it.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121045469#Comment_121045469

One thing I found odd was a comment from the commission that it is impossible to gauge where the expected population growth will happen.

I was under the impression that there are loads of people who study demographics to do just that.

Was also surprised to not see Limerick City extend into the Limerick City suburbs located in Clare but I'm sure there was politics behind that decision.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121050371#Comment_121050371

It shows a distinct lack of faith in the NDP which clearly sets out where the population growth should happen.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121050399#Comment_121050399

I'm more likely to believe the NDP over the comments from the commission.

Peregrinus

There's plenty of planning for this. But before we denounce people for not assuming that things will eventuate as planned, it might be worth looking at how planning has played out in the past. Has previous population growth always accrued where it was projected or planned to accrue?

These things are dynamic. Long terms plans are constantly being affected by unfolding developments not originally foreseen, and constantly being adjusted in the light of experience. That isn't a failure of the plans; it just goes with the territory. And you just have to accept that what you prepare for and what actually happens are frequently not the same thing.

Brussels Sprout

I was listening to the Irish Times Inside Politics podcast last night. Someone on it made an interesting point. In the last election SF managed to get a lot of people elected who nobody thought (probably including themselves) would actually get elected. In many cases those people have not been heard of since (ie they haven't been given any responsibilities but also haven't been left near a microphone). They were speculating as to whether those people would be "allowed" run again next time around.

That got me wondering who exactly they were talking about. Off the top of my head I would say the 2 ladies in Kildare, Martin Browne in Tipperary and Violent Anne Wynne (who has since left the party). Anyone else?

Brussels Sprout

I've just checked their list of spokes people and Patricia Ryan of Kildare South is actually their Junior Spokeperson on Older People.

Water John

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121051699#Comment_121051699

But do the polls not indicate that they'll get the votes anyway, unless the train turns.

hotmail.com

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121051699#Comment_121051699

It demonstrates how most of the TDs slip under the radar and do very little.

And they expect us to support 14 more TDs.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121054140#Comment_121054140

It has always been the case in Irish politics that a fair number of TDs have no ambition to get into cabinet or to achieve a national profile, and they focus on constituency work. They may have an excellent network and be well-known within their constituency, and virtually invisible outside it. You get this in all parties.

In SF's case they have, for obvious reasons, a high number of first-term TDs. First-term TDs in particular are traditionally advised to focus on constituency work. They don't have the experience, the skills or in many cases the credibility to take on a national profile, and their immediate priority should be to consolidate their position locally. Time enough to start spreading your wings in your second term.

rock22

deleted

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121051714#Comment_121051714

And Cronin in Kildare North is defence.

She is invisible locally, just like when she was a councillor - but there's no chance of her council election 'performance' - booted out on count 1 - being repeated unfortunately

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121047445#Comment_121047445

Sweden is not a similar size country. A few years ago it was 10.42 million, now even higher than that.

And the likes of the Healy Raes and the TD eejit with the bog turf in the midlands do not contribute ( positively at least ) to foreign affairs.

The likes of Spain Germany France Netherlands etc have less than one MP per 100,000 inhabitants, we have ( and the taxpayer here pays for ) 3.3 AND increasing. Another case of our hard pressed taxpayers being fleeced.

ArmaniJeanss

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121055027#Comment_121055027

Luxembourg has one MP/TD per 10,000 people. So maybe we should increase ours to 500 TDs to be in line with them?

Or maybe, just maybe, trying to do straight line comparisons to countries with 8x our population (like your France/Germany) or -8x our population (like my Luxembourg) is utterly stupid.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121054388#Comment_121054388

I don't think it is unique to Irish politics either. It is a rather inevitable outcome of the parliamentary system (somewhat alleviated with list systems granted).

But it is also why you need a certain number of members to be able to form a competent government!

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121055027#Comment_121055027

And they have twice as many representatives...

There are few enough countries in Europe with our population, but the size of our parliament is very much in line with every other small to medium sized country.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121056444#Comment_121056444

New Zealand ( population 5.123 million in 2021) is a country comparable in population to Ireland (population 5.033 million in 2021) ....their House consists of only 120 members of Parliament (MPs). As it should be.

As someone else said, if the formula for calculating the number of TDs in the Dail were used elsewhere there would be 2250 MPs in the UK's House of Commons. Why do we have to be so inefficient in Ireland, from planning for housing to building the national Childrens hospital? All at great cost to the taxpayer.

hotmail.com

Has any political party said they don't support raising the number of TDs.

It very telling if none of them are.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121056741#Comment_121056741

Not a perfect system either. NZ just completed a consultative process to reform it's electoral system. If it was 'efficient' it wouldn't need reform.

P.S. The UK don't use a similar 'formula' to calculate it's membership and has an entirely different and equally inefficient system. What the significance of a comparison is, only you know.

Systems of government are not ideal anywhere - comes with the territory.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121056741#Comment_121056741

Good for them. You are also ignoring the examples of Finland and Norway I note who are very similar to us.

Ireland is not over-represented. If we had a population of 60M than the current formulation would not work, but we don't. If we pro-rated the HOC down to Ireland we would have 50 TDs which would be nowhere near enough to form a government. It is not a helpful comparison.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121056770#Comment_121056770

Obviously all TDs, or the vast majority anyway, are in it for themselves...their own pay, perks, expenses and pensions.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121056943#Comment_121056943

New Zealand has "tweaked" its electoral system for decades, but that was more to do with the FPP / MMP system. Nobody there suggested increasing their number of MPs to our level of TD's, even though their population is slightly higher. As pointed out already, New Zealand ( population 5.123 million in 2021) is a country comparable in population to Ireland (population 5.033 million in 2021) ....their House consists of only 120 members of Parliament (MPs)....and there are no proposals to increase that.   Does the New Zealand parliament tolerate never mind pay for the likes of Ming Flanagan or Jackie Healy Rae? Maybe we should send them out and to tell the New Zealanders they are doing things wrong?

Nobody said any system of government was ideal anywhere....but why does the taxpayer in this country consistently come off worst, whither is is something relatively simple like paying for politicians / the number of politicians , or more complex things like the new National Childrens Hospital mess?

120 good politicians should be able to run a country of 5 million (the size of a medium city worldwide) ....how many are we paying for here ( TDs and MEPs)?

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121057164#Comment_121057164

We’re tweaking our system too.

All governments cost the taxpayer. Ours is no different.

Hotblack Desiato

It should be borne in mind when comparing TDs/MPs per head that other countries have functioning local government - we don't.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121051699#Comment_121051699

Violent Anne Wynne 🤣

Sam Russell

New Zealand does not have to send representatives to the EU Council of Ministers. It is also less ambitious over Foreign Affairs, the UN, etc.

I would think 160 TDs is about right. Increasing their number does not increase access by the general population to politics to any extent. They should be required to serve on committees.

Plus the Senate should be reformed in a significant way. It should be elected by the same electorate as the Dail on the same day as the GE, with some reginal element.

PommieBast

@Sam Russell

Plus the Senate should be reformed in a significant way. It should be elected by the same electorate as the Dail on the same day as the GE, with some reginal elemet.

Not too sure about the "same day" bit as you may as well just have one chamber of gov't but otherwise yes.

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121057748#Comment_121057748

My idea there is to reduce the number of failed TDs looking for a retirement home, with good pay and benefits. Now that could be dealt with in a different way, but the Senate currently is a meaningless talking shop with no real function.

FrancieBrady

Same day would be a disaster. Needs everyone voting and a separate campaign if it’s to be taken seriously.

A healthy public debate about what it has to offer, if anything, is long overdue.